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Evidence for “a god” at John 10:33

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Iymus

Active Member
So then it is quite clear that the context can be in the eyes of the beholder.

this response seems more like a cop out in my opinion. it's actually quite clear that some verses need the support of surrounding verse for the reader to understand, or get context, or the full picture

Unless you are telling me the context of of "Exo 7:1" is not simple or straightforward with the help of verse "Exo 7:2"; and actually or instead in the eyes of the beholder.

Exo 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
Exo 7:2 Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
this response seems more like a cop out in my opinion. it's actually quite clear that some verses need the support of surrounding verse for the reader to understand, or get context, or the full picture

Unless you are telling me the context of of "Exo 7:1" is not simple or straightforward with the help of verse "Exo 7:2"; and actually or instead in the eyes of the beholder.

Exo 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
Exo 7:2 Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.
What I am saying is that Moses was made BY God to be LIKE God to Pharaoh. Now if God told Moses that he would be like Him to Pharaoh, then how do you take it? Some translators say that he would be a God to Pharaoh. And the Douay-Rheims said that he would be God to Pharaoh. He told Moses to speak all He commanded him. It seems so crystal clear to me that the expression God (or elohim or theos) must and can be understood in context. I'm not sure what conclusion you get from this. If I were to say Moses was God to Pharaoh, how would you take it?
 

Iymus

Active Member
What I am saying is that Moses was made BY God to be LIKE God to Pharaoh. Now if God told Moses that he would be like Him to Pharaoh, then how do you take it?

No difference for me, especially when I have verse 2 to clarify.

I will take it as this way and will quote from NWT

Luke 6:

40 A student* is not above his teacher, but everyone who is perfectly instructed will be like his teacher.

If I were to say Moses was God to Pharaoh, how would you take it?

with context; God made Moses as / like himself to pharaoh and Aaron as / like a prophet.

What I would not take it as however; is that Moses is God himself because I have the context in verse 2 and I also have the commandment of God "Deu 6:4/Mar 12:29" which is expedient or supersedes.

Without a foundation of Deu 6:4 though, I could take it as Moses is God himself, if the right crafty false teacher comes around
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
No difference for me, especially when I have verse 2 to clarify.

I will take it as this way and will quote from NWT

Luke 6:

40 A student* is not above his teacher, but everyone who is perfectly instructed will be like his teacher.



with context; God made Moses as / like himself to pharaoh and Aaron as / like a prophet.

What I would not take it as however; is that Moses is God himself because I have the context in verse 2 and I also have the commandment of God "Deu 6:4/Mar 12:29" which is expedient or supersedes.

Without a foundation of Deu 6:4 though, I could take it as Moses is God himself, if the right crafty false teacher comes around
It would be hard for a normal minded person in any case to read this as meaning that Moses is God himself, imo. Although I do believe the Egyptians considered Pharaoh as a "god." Since I don't like long posts, I'll leave that for another discussion. And so Moses countering Pharaoh was quite mind shaking.

Do you believe in Jesus Christ as the spokesman for God, his Father and teacher?

**"Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me."**
Moses spoke to Pharaoh as God, the God, a God. To Pharaoh. Appointed BY God Himself. Jesus said he speaks as the Father taught him. John 8:28.
Here's part of the context from John chapter 8:

"Just what I have been telling you from the beginning,” Jesus replied. 26“I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is trustworthy, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.”27They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up a the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.” 30Even as he spoke, many believed in him."

So now the question is, taking into consideration what Jesus said here, what do you believe about Jesus? Was he of divine origin? Did the people have to listen to him in order for them to be approved by God, his Father?
 

Iymus

Active Member
Do you believe in Jesus Christ as the spokesman for God, his Father and teacher?


Messiah is spokesperson and Heavenly Father is true Teacher


Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/nwt/books/john/6/
John 6

45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by Jehovah.’*+ Everyone who has listened to the Father and has learned comes to me.

So now the question is, taking into consideration what Jesus said here, what do you believe about Jesus? Was he of divine origin? Did the people have to listen to him in order for them to be approved by God, his Father?

may have to come back to this question; flesh is weary.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Messiah is spokesperson and Heavenly Father is true Teacher


Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/nwt/books/john/6/
John 6

45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by Jehovah.’*+ Everyone who has listened to the Father and has learned comes to me.



may have to come back to this question; flesh is weary.
Very understandable. Be well. And get the needed rest. :)
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I understand your point, but that does not change the actual word. Although the same Hebrew word, it is rendered as God or gods --or-- even in the case of Moses, God.
Here are a few examples of Exodus 7:1 as translators have it: All from the same Hebrew word. Moses - made God, the God or a God BY God.

**Douay-Rheims Bible
And the Lord said to Moses: Behold I have appointed thee the God of Pharao: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

Darby Bible Translation
And Jehovah said to Moses, See, I have made thee God to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

English Revised Version
And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.**

Hi @YoursTrue

I very much agree with you that the fact that the two different words having the same spelling, but having different meanings does not change the word.
If I say "I had a vision in a dream.", it has a different meaning than if I say "My vision is really bad.". I agree that the fact that the word had two meanings "does not change the word".
If I say "I bare my soul to my friend." it has a different meaning than if I use the word "I rode the horse bare back.". Again, I agree with you that the different meanings for the same word "does not change the word."

Can you clarify what point you were going to make regarding the noun אלהימ being the same or does your point no longer apply? I am certainly still interested in what linguistic point you were going to make.

Clear
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Hi @YoursTrue

I very much agree with you that the fact that the two different words having the same spelling, but having different meanings does not change the word.
If I say "I had a vision in a dream.", it has a different meaning than if I say "My vision is really bad.". I agree that the fact that the word had two meanings "does not change the word".
If I say "I bare my soul to my friend." it has a different meaning than if I use the word "I rode the horse bare back.". Again, I agree with you that the different meanings for the same word "does not change the word."

Can you clarify what point you were going to make regarding the noun אלהימ being the same or does your point no longer apply? I am certainly still interested in what linguistic point you were going to make.

Clear
Yes. That God (Elohim) doesn't always have to mean God (Elohim), if you get my point. Since God made Moses God to pharaoh, it doesn't mean Moses was God. Take care, have a good night.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
REGARDING THE LINGUISTIC USE OF “GOD” / “ELOHIM”


@YoursTrue said : “That God (Elohim) doesn't always have to mean God (Elohim), if you get my point. Since God made Moses God to pharaoh, it doesn't mean Moses was God. (post 348)


I would argue that, historically, the word Elohim cannot be separated from it’s meaning (i.e. God or Godhood. )

For example, when God say to Moses In Exodus 7:1, it is “given to you [to be] a God to Pharoah” (δεδωκα σε θεον Φαραω) this does not change the meaning of θεος or “God” to mean that God is like Moses somehow, but rather that Moses is like God somehow.

Similarly, when “THE God stood in the congregation of Gods, and in the midst of Gods, he examined them…” (LXX), this judgement or criticism of these Gods is being done by THE God (the Greek actually uses the article) to another group of Gods. While these other Gods are not THE God (as the text indicates), they are Gods. Something about them allows the text to apply the attribute of “Gods” or “Godhood” to this group. The God does not take on their characteristic, but rather they take on one or more characteristics of Godhood.

For example, Diognetus tells the early Christians, “ whoever takes upon himself his neighbor’s burden, whoever wishes to benefit another who is worse off in something in which he himself is better off, whoever provides to those in need things that he has received from God, and thus becomes a god to those receive them, this one is an imitator of God. The Epistle to Diognetus 10:6

Diognetus is not doing something new by the application of the appellation of “God” to mankind. The Dead Sea Scrolls (4Q) provide many examples of these “Godlike” beings who are, in some way, like God himself. Gods. Yet, the text still distinguishes them from THE God.

For example, 4Q400 Frag. 1 speaks thusly : “Praise the God of …, you godlike beings of utter holiness; rejoice in his divine kingdom. For He has established utter holiness among the eternally holy, that they might become for Him priests of the inner sanctum in His royal temple, ministers of the Presence in His glorious innermost chamber. In the congregation of all the wise godlike beings, and in the councils of all the divine spirits, He has engraven his precepts to govern all spiritual works and his glorious laws for all the wise divine beings, that sage congregation honored by God, those who draw near to knowledge.

The text also tells us that it is not only by “drawing near to knowledge” they are honored as being “godlike”, but the text tells us that “Precept by precept they shall grow strong, to be seven eternal councils; for He established them for Himself to be the most holy of those who minister in the Holy of Holies. [...] They shall become mighty thereby in accordance with the council [...] [...] the Holy of Holies, priests of …these are the princes of …who take their stand in the temples of the King [...] in their realm or within their inheritance [...]” They tolerate none who transgress the true Way, nor is there any unclean in their holy ranks.


In using the appellation of “God”, the word “God” or “godlike” does not mean that THE God has become “like” them, but they have become like him (Godlike). The base meaning of Elohim/θεοσ has not changed.

Such texts often distinguish The “God of gods” and “Lord of lords” from those others. For example, 4Q401-2 Frag 1-2 says the king of the godlike beings..[...] when they come with the godlike beings of [...] together for all of their assemblies [...] their might for all the powerful warriors…

While it is clear in such early texts that these "God-like" beings are divine and powerful and full of knowledge, etc (i.e. like God or “Godlike”), still, he is more powerful, more knowledgeable, and has more authority than they.

“Surely the weapons of warfare belong to the God of divine beings…the armies of heaven and the wonders of all the divine spirits shall run at His command, while the voice of tumult [...with] His might, armies of divine spirits at war in the clouds. But the victory shall belong to the God of divine beings. God by His knowledge has created wonderful new works. All these has He wondrously created; none can comprehend His glorious plan. To the King of the wise godlike beings belong all matters of knowledge; indeed the God of knowledge causes all that happens forever. Through His knowledge and by means of His glorious plan all the eternal seasons have come to be. He has created the former things at their times, and the latter things at the time appointed for them. ... ..None of the divine beings understand what he has designed, for these things are part of His glorious creation, and were part of His plan before ever they came to be.. 4Q402 Frags. 3-4

My point is that when early council texts such as Psalms 82 speak of the council of Gods, Historically this does not change the linguistic meaning of Elohim / θεος, but instead merely applies one or more of the characteristics of an Elohim / El / θεος to another being, such as a Moses, or to early Christians as Diognetus explained.


In any case, I hope your spiritual Journey is wonderful.


Clear
σιειτωφυω
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Hi @YoursTrue

I very much agree with you that the fact that the two different words having the same spelling, but having different meanings does not change the word.
If I say "I had a vision in a dream.", it has a different meaning than if I say "My vision is really bad.". I agree that the fact that the word had two meanings "does not change the word".
If I say "I bare my soul to my friend." it has a different meaning than if I use the word "I rode the horse bare back.". Again, I agree with you that the different meanings for the same word "does not change the word."

Can you clarify what point you were going to make regarding the noun אלהימ being the same or does your point no longer apply? I am certainly still interested in what linguistic point you were going to make.

Clear
Hello Clear. Elohim is plural. It can mean gods or God or judges. The same word can apply to the true God the Almighty, or to Moses. Context, God's spirit, and understanding makes the application clear.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Hello TrueBeliever37 good to meet you.... I have a few things to point out... First... All Jews believe there is ONLY one God (1) Elizabeth (a Jew) greeted Mary in Luke 1 with>>>
43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
>>> Mother of my Lord <<<< can only mean "Mother of my God"! EVERY...
TrueBeliever37
every place in the whole of Luke 1 the word "LORD" means God! I count a least eleven times the word "LORD" means God! Elizabeth a JEW would be blaspheming to believe there was another God other then the one God she believes in! Not one place in the whole of Luke 1 that the word LORD does not mean "GOD"!
Example...
11 Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense.
15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.
17 And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the parents to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”
25 “The Lord has done this for me,” she said. “In these days he has shown his favor and taken away my disgrace among the people.”
32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,
38 “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.” Then the angel left her.
etc

Mary is the Mother of God!
Second...
Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
Matthew 1:23The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).
TrueBeliever37 The Old Testament tells you "God with us" thus Jesus is God! I point out again.. The Jews believe in ONE and ONLY ONE God the Old Testament can only mean ONE GOD not "A god"!

Third.... I must point out in the scriptures we read They worship Jesus! Jesus never stops them from worshiping him! Jesus knows beyond all doubt; Worship is ONLY for God he told Satan in the desert this fact!
Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’

Fourth... Jesus is called "Mighty God" & "Our Savior"!
Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
&
Isaiah 43:3For I am Jehovah your God, the Holy One of Israel your Savior. I have given Egypt as a ransom for you, Ethiopia and Seba in place of you.”
Titus 1:4May there be undeserved kindness and peace from God [the] Father and Christ Jesus our Savior”.

I can't tell if you are trying to agree or disagree with me.

I believe there is only one God (the Father), not a trinity. God is a Spirit that didn't have blood to shed for man's sin. So God made himself a body to dwell in and sacrifice for man's sin. He referred to the body he took on as his Son. But the Son wasn't another different person. The Messiah was God himself dwelling in a fleshly body. (The Father was the eternal Spirit dwelling in the body. The Son was the human fleshly body the Father took on.) So the Messiah was both Father and Son, as prophesied in Isaiah 9:6

The Father (the eternal Spirit) couldn't die. The fleshly body called the Son could die. That human fleshly body was weak, and therefore could also be tempted in all the ways we are. That was why the flesh would pray to the Spirit for strength to overcome.
 
Last edited:

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
REGARDING THE LINGUISTIC USE OF “GOD” / “ELOHIM”


@YoursTrue said : “That God (Elohim) doesn't always have to mean God (Elohim), if you get my point. Since God made Moses God to pharaoh, it doesn't mean Moses was God. (post 348)


I would argue that, historically, the word Elohim cannot be separated from it’s meaning (i.e. God or Godhood. )

For example, when God say to Moses In Exodus 7:1, it is “given to you [to be] a God to Pharoah” (δεδωκα σε θεον Φαραω) this does not change the meaning of θεος or “God” to mean that God is like Moses somehow, but rather that Moses is like God somehow.

Similarly, when “THE God stood in the congregation of Gods, and in the midst of Gods, he examined them…” (LXX), this judgement or criticism of these Gods is being done by THE God (the Greek actually uses the article) to another group of Gods. While these other Gods are not THE God (as the text indicates), they are Gods. Something about them allows the text to apply the attribute of “Gods” or “Godhood” to this group. The God does not take on their characteristic, but rather they take on one or more characteristics of Godhood.

For example, Diognetus tells the early Christians, “ whoever takes upon himself his neighbor’s burden, whoever wishes to benefit another who is worse off in something in which he himself is better off, whoever provides to those in need things that he has received from God, and thus becomes a god to those receive them, this one is an imitator of God. The Epistle to Diognetus 10:6

Diognetus is not doing something new by the application of the appellation of “God” to mankind. The Dead Sea Scrolls (4Q) provide many examples of these “Godlike” beings who are, in some way, like God himself. Gods. Yet, the text still distinguishes them from THE God.

For example, 4Q400 Frag. 1 speaks thusly : “Praise the God of …, you godlike beings of utter holiness; rejoice in his divine kingdom. For He has established utter holiness among the eternally holy, that they might become for Him priests of the inner sanctum in His royal temple, ministers of the Presence in His glorious innermost chamber. In the congregation of all the wise godlike beings, and in the councils of all the divine spirits, He has engraven his precepts to govern all spiritual works and his glorious laws for all the wise divine beings, that sage congregation honored by God, those who draw near to knowledge.

The text also tells us that it is not only by “drawing near to knowledge” they are honored as being “godlike”, but the text tells us that “Precept by precept they shall grow strong, to be seven eternal councils; for He established them for Himself to be the most holy of those who minister in the Holy of Holies. [...] They shall become mighty thereby in accordance with the council [...] [...] the Holy of Holies, priests of …these are the princes of …who take their stand in the temples of the King [...] in their realm or within their inheritance [...]” They tolerate none who transgress the true Way, nor is there any unclean in their holy ranks.


In using the appellation of “God”, the word “God” or “godlike” does not mean that THE God has become “like” them, but they have become like him (Godlike). The base meaning of Elohim/θεοσ has not changed.

Such texts often distinguish The “God of gods” and “Lord of lords” from those others. For example, 4Q401-2 Frag 1-2 says the king of the godlike beings..[...] when they come with the godlike beings of [...] together for all of their assemblies [...] their might for all the powerful warriors…

While it is clear in such early texts that these "God-like" beings are divine and powerful and full of knowledge, etc (i.e. like God or “Godlike”), still, he is more powerful, more knowledgeable, and has more authority than they.

“Surely the weapons of warfare belong to the God of divine beings…the armies of heaven and the wonders of all the divine spirits shall run at His command, while the voice of tumult [...with] His might, armies of divine spirits at war in the clouds. But the victory shall belong to the God of divine beings. God by His knowledge has created wonderful new works. All these has He wondrously created; none can comprehend His glorious plan. To the King of the wise godlike beings belong all matters of knowledge; indeed the God of knowledge causes all that happens forever. Through His knowledge and by means of His glorious plan all the eternal seasons have come to be. He has created the former things at their times, and the latter things at the time appointed for them. ... ..None of the divine beings understand what he has designed, for these things are part of His glorious creation, and were part of His plan before ever they came to be.. 4Q402 Frags. 3-4

My point is that when early council texts such as Psalms 82 speak of the council of Gods, Historically this does not change the linguistic meaning of Elohim / θεος, but instead merely applies one or more of the characteristics of an Elohim / El / θεος to another being, such as a Moses, or to early Christians as Diognetus explained.


In any case, I hope your spiritual Journey is wonderful.


Clear
σιειτωφυω

Hello Clear. Elohim is plural. It can mean gods or God or judges. The same word can apply to the true God the Almighty, or to Moses. Context, God's spirit, and understanding makes the application clear.

Hi @YoursTrue

I cannot tell if you are theorizing that Elohim actually simply means "judges" or, as I suggest, it does not lose it base meaning, but instead applies some Godlike characteristic to the person to who the name "God" or adjective "Godlike" is applied as the several examples in early sacred literature demonstrated in the post above.

For example, can you give us the example where simple Judges are called "Elohim" and we can discuss the reference and see if the base meaning of "God" or "elohim" actually changes to mean "judges" or if the judges are seen has having some Godlike characteristic.

Also, I agree with you that the base word "elohim" is a plural (e.g. "gods").

Clear
σιτωεισεω
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
I can't tell if you are trying to agree or disagree with me.

I believe there is only one God (the Father), not a trinity. God is a Spirit that didn't have blood to shed for man's sin. So God made himself a body to dwell in and sacrifice for man's sin. He referred to the body he took on as his Son. But the Son wasn't another different person. The Messiah was God himself dwelling in a fleshly body. (The Father was the eternal Spirit dwelling in the body. The Son was the human fleshly body the Father took on.) So the Messiah was both Father and Son, as prophesied in Isaiah 9:6

The Father (the eternal Spirit) couldn't die. The fleshly body called the Son could die. That human fleshly body was weak, and therefore could also be tempted in all the ways we are. That was why the flesh would pray to the Spirit for strength to overcome.

TrueBeliever37 I hope all is well...
I reply... "The Word became man!" John 1:14
TrueBeliever37 God became man and lived among us! Think.. Only God is perfect, Adam was created perfect but he sinned... He took in upon himself, free will to SIN! The wages of sin is death.. So Adam died; we his off spring are born into a corrupted creation, we are corrupted we are "NOT PERFECT" we sin and we die! Jesus had to be born as a man so he could die as a man! Can't die as a man if first not born as a man! God became part of his own creation!
Jesus the perfect man died... He was without sin so he popped up out of the grave as a cork rising up in a pool of water! The wages of sin is death. Sin had no hold on him! NO ONE..
TrueBeliever37 no one can die two times... You can't even kill a stinking no good for nothing mangy dog twice! Jesus rose from the grave Never Ever to die again... WHAT...
TrueBeliever37
what you have to do is get yourself into the never to die body of Jesus to live forever! You have to be "IMMERSED" into the body of Jesus!

TrueBeliever37 You say "No Trinity"! Again I ask you to think.... Scriptures are very clear.. "God is Love"! God is perfect he is perfect love! No one can love themselves... Love of self is called selfish, pride, self- centered, greedy etc! God loves perfectly, to love perfectly you NEED another or your love is selfish, proud, self- centered, greedy etc. If LOVE always was ... If God always was then he needed another to ALWAYS be with him IF...
TrueBeliever37
if even for a millisecond this "Other" was not with God then God would not be perfect.. Then TrueBeliever37 he would not be God!
Love creates the love of God is perfect, perfect love says there needs to be a good work a GIVING OF SELF for another! Love of Father & word/Son means there MUST be fruit Holy Spirit is the result of perfect love! If even for a millisecond this Holy Spirit was not present then God' perfect love would not be perfect he would not be God!
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Hi @YoursTrue

I cannot tell if you are theorizing that Elohim actually simply means "judges" or, as I suggest, it does not lose it base meaning, but instead applies some Godlike characteristic to the person to who the name "God" or adjective "Godlike" is applied as the several examples in early sacred literature demonstrated in the post above.

For example, can you give us the example where simple Judges are called "Elohim" and we can discuss the reference and see if the base meaning of "God" or "elohim" actually changes to mean "judges" or if the judges are seen has having some Godlike characteristic.

Also, I agree with you that the base word "elohim" is a plural (e.g. "gods").

Clear
σιτωεισεω
Hi @YoursTrue

I cannot tell if you are theorizing that Elohim actually simply means "judges" or, as I suggest, it does not lose it base meaning, but instead applies some Godlike characteristic to the person to who the name "God" or adjective "Godlike" is applied as the several examples in early sacred literature demonstrated in the post above.

For example, can you give us the example where simple Judges are called "Elohim" and we can discuss the reference and see if the base meaning of "God" or "elohim" actually changes to mean "judges" or if the judges are seen has having some Godlike characteristic.

Also, I agree with you that the base word "elohim" is a plural (e.g. "gods").

Clear
σιτωεισεω
Please look at Psalm 8:5 and tell me what you see as that which is sometimes translated as angels. I will wait for your answer as to which word is often translated as angels.
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
Please look at Psalm 8:5 and tell me what you see as that which is sometimes translated as angels. I will wait for your answer as to which word is often translated as angels.

For Thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honor.
You made him little less than God and crowned him with glory and honor.
You’ve made them ** only slightly less than divine, crowning them with glory and grandeur.
You made us a little lower than you yourself, and you have crowned us with glory and honor.
What is man that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?
You made them ** a little lower than ·the angels [or God] and crowned them with glory and honor


In Context...(below)
4 what is mankind that you are mindful of them,
human beings that you care for them?

5 You have made them** a little lower than the angels
and crowned them ** with glory and honor.
6 You made them** rulers over the works of your hands;
you put everything under their feet:
7 all flocks and herds,
and the animals of the wild,




1 Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
For Thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honor.
You made him little less than God and crowned him with glory and honor.
You’ve made them ** only slightly less than divine, crowning them with glory and grandeur.
You made us a little lower than you yourself, and you have crowned us with glory and honor.
What is man that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?
You made them ** a little lower than ·the angels [or God] and crowned them with glory and honor


In Context...(below)
4 what is mankind that you are mindful of them,
human beings that you care for them?

5 You have made them** a little lower than the angels
and crowned them ** with glory and honor.
6 You made them** rulers over the works of your hands;
you put everything under their feet:
7 all flocks and herds,
and the animals of the wild,




1 Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
So which word was translated as angels??
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
So which word was translated as angels??
YoursTrue hello.. You asked which word was translated as angels? I say.. I am not sure... Angels is translated as "Angels" Thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honor.
I read.. "Man (us) (them) (him-plural) was made lower then Angels"! Not sure what you are thinking!?:oops:
For Thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honor.
You made him little less than God and crowned him with glory and honor.
You’ve made them ** only slightly less than divine, crowning them with glory and grandeur.
You made us a little lower than you yourself, and you have crowned us with glory and honor.
What is man that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?
You made them ** a little lower than ·the angels [or God] and crowned them with glory and honor


God created man!
 

TiggerII

Active Member
Good Grief! the word is elohim! The same word usually translated God or gods is translated in many Bibles as Angels in Ps. 8:5!

Compare Heb. 2:6-8.
 
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Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
tigger2 hope your day went well...
"Jesus is God"... Christians believe Jesus is God equal to the Father. Father Son Holy Spirit "One God"!

Philippians 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

Christians removed Arius from among them because he rejected the truth; "Jesus is God"!
Thomas worships Jesus: his GOD! Jesus tells us.. "Christians that believe and do not see me as you (Thomas) will be blessed! Jesus did not say... "I am NOT God" he congratulates Thomas!
 
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