Evidence for “a god” at John 10:33

[THE Art Vandelay]

"bud" is short slang for "buddy", which means friend. If I were really your friend, would you speak to me like you have, and misrepresent my position?

 

[Crosstian]

Already spoken on the "Good (Mt. 19:17; Mk. 10:18) Shepherd" (Jesus), now let us look at the separator of the Sheep and Goats:

The Separator of the Sheep and the Goats?

Ezekiel 34:15 KJB - I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 34:16 KJB - I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.

Ezekiel 34:17 KJB - And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats.

Matthew 25:31 KJB - When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Matthew 25:32 KJB - And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Matthew 25:33 KJB - And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Luke 19:10 KJB - For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.​

 

[Muffled]

So, when Jesus said, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me”, Jesus was referring to...Himself?

That makes no sense.

I believe He was referring to a psalm by quoting the first line.

 

[Muffled]

That is where the explanations of Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah clear this up.

The Messengers of God, if we use the example of Jesus Christ, are all we can know of God, thus to us all praise of God is to them, they are the 'Self of God' amongst us.

At the same time, that are not God in Essence, and Christ explains this as the 'Father is Greater than I'.

But Christ's mention of the Father is again only of Christ's own potential, as we can not know God. At the same time it is a prophecy that He will return as the Father. 'The Father and I are One'.

We worship One God, who came as many Names as the Holy Spirit, the first, the last.


Regards Tony

I believe that is only partially true of even Moses who had a very good walk with God but Jesus is God in the flesh so everything He says and does reflects the character of God.

I believe that is not true. God in His essence is Spirit and that is in Jesus.

I believe that God is everywhere so He can't be limited to just the body of Jesus.

I believe I know of no such prophecy.

I believe He says that so you will know that the Spirit of God in Jesus and the Spirit of God outside of Jesus (The Father) are not two Spirits but one Spirit.

 

[Muffled]

Jesus is created from the Holy Spirit, that is the Metephor of the virgin birth.

Jesus is The 'Anointed One' Christ, created of God, but is not God in Essence.

This is how Baha'u'llah explains it, but we can also see it is how Christ 'Is';

“... Naught is seen in My temple but the Temple of God, and in My beauty but His Beauty, and in My being but His Being, and in My self but His Self, and in My movement but His Movement, and in My acquiescence but His Acquiescence, and in My pen but His Pen, the Mighty, the All-Praised. There hath not been in My soul but the Truth, and in Myself naught could be seen but God.” “The Holy Spirit Itself hath been generated through the agency of a single letter revealed by this Most Great Spirit, if ye be of them that comprehend.”…... "

Regards Tony

I believe that is a misnomer. One does not create anything from a Spirit. The physical is both there in Mary as part of her nature and the male portion created but the Spirit is joined to the flesh as it is with all people whose spirits are joined to the flesh.

I believe that is a rather long winded way of saying that Jesus is God in the flesh.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I believe

I believe

I believe

I believe

I believe

I believe

I believe

To which I am 100% happy for you to pursue.

You in no way, shape or form have to consider what Baha'u'llah offered. I have chosen to, as I see Baha'u'llah is who the world awaits and desperately needs. (The Glory of God)

Regards Tony

 

[Crosstian]

The Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the Ending, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, the Author and Finisher

Isaiah 41:4 KJB - Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

Isaiah 44:6 KJB - Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isaiah 48:12 KJB - Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.​

The “... First and the Last ...” is JEHOVAH - the LORD:

Revelation 1:17 KJB - And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:​

Compare:

“... Fear not ...” - Genesis 15:1, 21:17, 26:24, 46:3; Joshua 8:1; Isaiah 41:13... etc ... Matthew 14:27, 17:7, 28:10; Luke 8:50, 12:7, etc. KJB​

Revelation 1:18 KJB - I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Revelation 2:8 KJB - And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;​

“... Alpha and Omega, the first and the last ...”, even Jesus Christ:

Revelation 1:11 KJB - Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.​

See Context:

Revelation 1:12 KJB - And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

Revelation 1:13 KJB - And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.​

Side Note:

The NWT [the Watch Tower's, or Jehovah's Witness, New World Translation], because it follows the corrupt Alexandrian Greek texts, like Codex Aleph [Sinaiticus], B [Vaticanus] and A [Alexandrinus], etc, it leaves out the phrase as found in the preserved [Psalms 12:6-7 KJB] and unbreakable [John 10:35 KJB] word of God, the King James Bible, “... I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, ...”. However, it may be shown from the scripture itself that the phrase belongs, and was there from the beginning, because of the way the book of Revelation, yea the whole of the Bible [KJB], is written:​

Rev. 1:8,11

“... Alpha and Omega ...”​

Rev. 21:6, 22:13

“... Alpha and Omega ...”​

Rev. 1:8

“... the beginning and the ending ...”​

Rev. 21:6, 22:13

“... the beginning and the end ...”​

A more complete table is seen in “[XX] Appendix 6 – Daniel & the Revelation compared”

Revelation 22:13 KJB - I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Revelation 22:16 KJB - I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.​

Side Note:

If seeking the 'translation' from the NWT [the Watch Tower's, or Jehovah's Witness, New World Translation] notice carefully where the quote marks [in both singles and doubles] actually begin and end in verses 12-16, and who is directly speaking [verse numbers are bracketed, bolded for emphasis, and quotation marks emphasized in bold red and key words]:​

Revelation 22:12-16 NWT - [12] “ ' Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. [13] I am the Al'pha and the O·me'ga, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. [14] Happy are those who wash their robes, that the authority [to go] to the trees of life may be theirs and that they may gain entrance into the city by its gates. [15] Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone liking and carrying on a lie.'​

[16] “ ' I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to YOU people of these things, for the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright morning star. ' ”​

Who comes with the reward?

Isaiah 40:10 KJB - Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

Matthew 16:27 KJB - For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Colossians 3:24 KJB - Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

Revelation 22:12 KJB - And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

1 Timothy 6:14 KJB - That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Timothy 6:15 KJB - Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

1 Timothy 6:16 KJB - Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Revelation 17:14 KJB - These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Revelation 19:11 KJB - And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Revelation 19:12 KJB - His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

Revelation 19:13 KJB - And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Revelation 19:14 KJB - And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Revelation 19:15 KJB - And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Revelation 19:16 KJB - And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.​

Jesus is the “... author and finisher ...”:

Hebrews 12:2 KJB - Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.​

 

[TiggerII]

Who is speaking in Rev. 22:16?

We are instructed by John in the introduction of his Revelation (Rev. 1:1) that we will be hearing this revelation from God which he gave to Jesus Christ and which was sent through his angel to his servant John. So, it is God's revelation, Jesus' revelation, the angel's revelation, and John's revelation, and we will be hearing the words of all of them from time to time.

Look at Rev. 22:8-16. John is identified as the speaker in 22:8. The angel speaks in Rev. 22:9). The angel apparently continues speaking in Rev. 22:10). The angel may be still speaking in Rev. 22:11) --- or it could be John or even someone else (as implied in verse 10 in the NAB, 1970 ed.).

Now is the angel still speaking in Rev. 22:12) or is it God, or is it Jesus, or even John? There is simply no way of telling who the speaker is from any of the early Bible manuscripts. It's entirely a matter of translator's choice. Some translators have decided it is the angel who continues to speak, and they punctuate it accordingly. So the JB, and NJB use quotation marks Rev. 22:10 - :16) to show that these are all words spoken by the angel.

However, the RSV, NRSV, NASB, NEB, REB, NKJV, NAB (1991 ed.), ISV, 21st Century King James Version, and TEV show by their use of quotation marks that someone else is now speaking in verse 12. Most Bibles indicate that the person who spoke verse 12 (whether God, angel, Jesus, or John) also spoke verse 13 (“I am Alpha and Omega”).

Now the big question is: Is it clear that the speaker(s) of verses 12 and 13 continues to speak? Some Bibles indicate this. But other highly respected trinitarian translations do not!

The ESV; ISV; LEB; MEV; MOUNCE; NAB (2010 ed.); NASB; NEB; NKJV; NLT; NRSV; REB; RSV; 21st Century King James Version, TEV; and WE show (by quotation marks and indenting/paragraphs) that Rev. 22:14 and 15 are not the words of the speaker of verses 12 and 13 but are John’s words. (The Jerusalem Bible; the NJB; and Moffatt show us that the angel spoke all the words from verse 10 through verse 15.)

Then they show Jesus as a new speaker beginning to speak in verse 16.

So, if you must insist that the person speaking just before verse 16 is the same person who is speaking in verse 16, then, according to the trinitarian ESV; ISV; LEB; MEV; MOUNCE; NAB (2010 ed.); NASB; NEB; NKJV; NLT; NRSV; REB; RSV; 21st Century King James Version, TEV; and WE , you are saying John is Jesus!!! (According to the JB and NJB you would be insisting that the angel is Jesus!)

....................................

As for the NWT translation, we see quotation marks showing the following: Rev. 22:9 - 11 shows the angel alone speaking (double quotation marks). At Rev. 22:12 the angel continues, but is now also speaking God's words (single quotation marks added). At the end of :15 we see that the angel stops speaking for God (single end quotation mark) but the angel continues speaking, but now starts also speaking for Jesus in beginning of :16 (new use of single quotation mark and double quotation marks continue). Both angel and Jesus stop speaking at end of :16 (end double and single quotation marks ).

 

[Crosstian]

...you are saying John is Jesus!!! (According to the JB and NJB you would be insisting that the angel is Jesus!)...

Apply the same (il)logic you just used to Revelation 1, and the speakers there. No one is saying that John is Jesus, or that the "angel" which Jesus sent is Himself. The language being used by the speaker, determines who is speaking, for neither the "angel", nor "John" would ever say that they were the ones "coming" with "reward", and neither would they say that they were the "Alpha and Omega", "beginning and the ending", "the first and the last", nor would they ever say that they were "the Lord". The very phrase "root" and "offspring", are again saying the same thing as "Alpha" and "Omega", "First" and "Last", "beginning" and "ending".

When John is speaking, he says, "I, John" (Revelation 1:9, 21:2, 22:8), and usually followed by "saw", or "heard". Yet this speaker, says, "write" (Rev. 1) and "sent".

Revelation 21:6, speaks of this Person giving of the water of life to those who are thirsty, and Jesus said:

Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
Joh 4:11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
Joh 4:12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
Joh 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.​

Also, if you understand the second advent, the Father is not the one coming, it is the Son that comes in the glory of His Father, His own glory, and with the Holy Angels. The Father waits at the Gates for the return of the Son, even as at the wedding feast.

You also didn't address the other texts which showed that it is Jesus that comes with His reward:

Isaiah 40:10 KJB - Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

Matthew 16:27 KJB - For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Colossians 3:24 KJB - Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

2 Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.


Revelation 22:12 KJB - And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.​

John then answers the question of who is speaking about "coming", in vs 20:

Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.​

For the entire Revelation is the "testimony of Jesus" (Revelation 1:2,9, 12:17, 19:10).

If you had read the linked material, you would see that the structure of Revelation itself, by its language is chiastic, and self defines who is speaking. However, instead of desiring to see what is written, you try to obfuscate with corrupted bible translations which the WTS refuses to use, even though they use the same MSS used for the NWT, which is to say "Alexandrian" (Sinaiticus, aleph) and "Roman" (Vaticanus, B).

 

[Muffled]

To which I am 100% happy for you to pursue.

You in no way, shape or form have to consider what Baha'u'llah offered. I have chosen to, as I see Baha'u'llah is who the world awaits and desperately needs. (The Glory of God)

Regards Tony

I believe you can be 100% foolish all you like but RF still recognizes it as a belief to be respected. As for me I have to be shown that it is Biblically logical or sanctified by the Holy Spirit and you have not done that.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I believe you can be 100% foolish all you like but RF still recognizes it as a belief to be respected. As for me I have to be shown that it is Biblically logical or sanctified by the Holy Spirit and you have not done that.

You have chosen to see what was offered in a different frame of reference.

Examples;

Jesus is God in the flesh so everything He says and does reflects the character of God.

It was offered that Jesus was the 'Self of God', but God is not flesh as Jesus says the Flesh amounts to nothing. Jesus is all the Attributes, the Word made flesh.

God's Messengers are all we can know of God.

I believe that is not true. God in His essence is Spirit and that is in Jesus.

No one knows the Essence of God John 1:18 explains it well;

"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

Thus Christ means Annointed One, meaning Jesus the Flesh Body was Annointed of the Holy Spirit and who Jesus was is all we can know of God. That is the Essence of Jesus, but it does not define the Essence of God.

I believe that God is everywhere so He can't be limited to just the body of

God is never Limited.

I believe I know of no such prophecy.

As the Jews still say about Jesus and Muhammad

I believe He says that so you will know that the Spirit of God in Jesus and the Spirit of God outside of Jesus (The Father) are not two Spirits but one Spirit.

The Spirit of all Messengers is One, they are all we can know of God.

Regards Tony

 

[Muffled]

You have chosen to see what was offered in a different frame of reference.

Examples;



It was offered that Jesus was the 'Self of God', but God is not flesh as Jesus says the Flesh amounts to nothing. Jesus is all the Attributes, the Word made flesh.

God's Messengers are all we can know of God.



No one knows the Essence of God John 1:18 explains it well;

"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

Thus Christ means Annointed One, meaning Jesus the Flesh Body was Annointed of the Holy Spirit and who Jesus was is all we can know of God. That is the Essence of Jesus, but it does not define the Essence of God.



God is never Limited.



As the Jews still say about Jesus and Muhammad



The Spirit of all Messengers is One, they are all we can know of God.

Regards Tony

I believe the problem is that the B man isn't even a messenger of God. There is a great deal of difference between what you can hear from a prophet or an angel and what you can hear from God directly in a person.

I believe Jesus does: John 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth

 

[Iymus]

Almost every version of John 10:33 that I’ve checked, says “God”...that the Jews were saying that Jesus was implying that he was God.

Yes. focusing solely on John 10:30 that seemed to be the case but in verse 29 he said God our Father is greater . In any case he said who he was in verse 36.

 

[TiggerII]

Yes. focusing solely on John 10:30 that seemed to be the case but in verse 29 he said God our Father is greater . In any case he said who he was in verse 36.

A careful examination of John 10:33 and its context shows that it should be translated as "a god." - Examining the Trinity: THEON - 'RDB's Rule' (Jn 1:18; 10:33)

 

[Iymus]

A careful examination of John 10:33 and its context shows that it should be translated as "a god." - Examining the Trinity: THEON - 'RDB's Rule' (Jn 1:18; 10:33)

This doesn't contradict my faith and would even correlate the logic of Christ in verse 34. Christ did not make himself Lord God the only true God according to the entire chapter of John Chapter 10.

My only question is why did they want to stone him?

 

[TiggerII]

This doesn't contradict my faith and would even correlate the logic of Christ in verse 34. Christ did not make himself Lord God the only true God according to the entire chapter of John Chapter 10.

My only question is why did they want to stone him?

"These Jews of Judea had already decided beforehand to kill Jesus! (John 7:1, 25-30) They needed no further incentives. Nothing that Jesus said or did at this point would have made any difference to them."
-Quote from my "I AM" study:
Examining the Trinity: "I AM" - Part 1

 

[1213]

Almost every version of John 10:33 that I’ve checked, says “God”...that the Jews were saying that Jesus was implying that he was God.

Is this accurate? (It certainly fits with mainstream teachings of Christendom.)
....

I don’t think Jesus was telling that he is God, or a god. Jesus told God is greater than him and that there is only one true God.

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

…the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

So, by what Jesus says, he is not the one and only true God. But, why then did people think so? I think the reason is that Jesus acted in the name of God. Jesus was speaking what God had told him to speak and so he was like God on earth. And that was annoying to the rulers that didn’t want to hear the truth.

For I spoke not from myself, but the Father who sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. I know that his commandment is eternal life. The things therefore which I speak, even as the Father has said to me, so I speak."
John 12:49-50

Jesus therefore answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. If anyone desires to do his will, he will know about the teaching, whether it is from God, or if I am speaking from myself.
John 7:16-17

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I don’t think Jesus was telling that he is God, or a god. Jesus told God is greater than him and that there is only one true God.

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

…the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

So, by what Jesus says, he is not the one and only true God. But, why then did people think so? I think the reason is that Jesus acted in the name of God. Jesus was speaking what God had told him to speak and so he was like God on earth. And that was annoying to the rulers that didn’t want to hear the truth.

For I spoke not from myself, but the Father who sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. I know that his commandment is eternal life. The things therefore which I speak, even as the Father has said to me, so I speak."
John 12:49-50

Jesus therefore answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. If anyone desires to do his will, he will know about the teaching, whether it is from God, or if I am speaking from myself.
John 7:16-17

You know I agree with you, right?
I was just stating the way that many translations published by Trinitarians, word it, trying to promote their POV.

The problem, though, in saying the Jews were accusing Jesus of claiming he was God, is that the accusation was never presented at Jesus’ Sanhedrin Trial! It definitely would have been, if they had claimed so! I mean, the Sanhedrin members were even looking for false witnesses! But such an accusation was never even brought up!

This also brings into question, the wording and meaning of Jesus’ statement at John 8:58, as @tigger2 has pointed out in his posts and on his blog.

 

[Clear]

Hi @Hockeycowboy

I apologize that I missed @tigger2 s point about "the wording and meaning of Jesus’ statement at John 8:58" can you point me to the post or his blog for this discussion.
Thanks so much.

Clear
.

 

[Muffled]

To which I am 100% happy for you to pursue.

You in no way, shape or form have to consider what Baha'u'llah offered. I have chosen to, as I see Baha'u'llah is who the world awaits and desperately needs. (The Glory of God)

Regards Tony

I believe you are deluded. I certainly have no need of him.