Evidence for “a god” at John 10:33

[YoursTrue]

YoursTrue good point they are different. Scriptures also tell you "I am in the father & the father is in me!" Scriptures also tell you "The WORD" (God) became man and lived among us! THINK: Scriptures are clear "God is love"! No one can love themselves! God is perfect if he was to love himself he would be selfish he would not be perfect, he would not be God.. God needed another to love to be Perfect love! If there is perfect love there needs to be TWO or the love would not be perfect! "In the beginning was the word the word was with God and the word was God!"

Jesus said (Mark 12) "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.” Thus, Jesus taught that we must love God with everything we have, (heart, mind, soul, and strength) and love for neighbor must be as we love ourselves.

 

[Soapy]

My personal studies of John 1:1c:
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009/09/john-11c-primer_21.html


http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2013/02/seven-lessons-for-john-11c-a.html

Tigger, too much Science.... Linguistic science is irrelevant to solving John 1:1-3.

Or rather, it takes just the simple understanding of the term, or meaning, of the word, “God”.

Of course you already know that the word, “God” is ripped from the German language... it’s not a Hebrew or anglicised word... that’s just side information!!

Truly, as you point out, OTHERS OF MANKIND AND EVEN ANGELS were called “GOD” (and “Gods”) - snd this is ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.... they were!!

So the readers ask, ‘Why... how can there be OTHERS when OUR ONLY GOD said to worship HIM ONLY as GOD?’

This is EASY to understand - and only those wishing to create muddy-water arguments contest this view (oh, and that’s the majority of ‘christians’.. yes, JW and Trinitarians, Mormons and... whoever!)

The USE of the word or term, “God”, IS AS A TITLE ...

Can I say that again... IT IS A TITLE... and you know that ANY AND EVERY TITLE can be applied BY CONTEXT to ANY AND EVERYONE who fits the CONTEXT...

So, a JUDGE (human or spirit) is “GOD, in his courtroom”.

How so? Well, the JUDGE is effectively the RULE MAKER, LAW UPHOLDER, FINAL ARBITER, the one looked up to as MIGHTY (most powerful one) and MAJESTIC (Majesty), HIGHEST...

There is NO ONE above a judge IN HIS COURTROOM... He is “GOD” in CONTEXT of HOS COURTROOM...

“Oh, I hear you cry, but....”. Go no further, I know what you are going to say... and you are right.., but you didn’t LISTEN (read and understand)... I said ‘IN CONTEXT OF HIS COURTROOM’!!!! I know there are RULERS ABOVE A JUDGE in human context... No one in humanity is an ULTIMATE JUDGE, ultimate ruler... because there is ALWAYS someone above them... even the USA PRESIDENT has Congress and the Senate ABOVE HIM...

But our DEITY whose name he gave as “YHWH”.. IS THE ULTIMATE RULER ABOVE ALL RULERS in ALL CONTEXTS... hence he says of himself:

• ‘I am GOD above all who are called GODS’

And also, even Jesus Christ states OUR DEITY as claiming ‘others’ are called ‘Gods’, saying:

• ‘If He called [holy] men, “Gods”, unto whom the word of God came...’

Here, Jesus was disputing that he called himself ‘GOD’ when he claimed that YHWH was his Father... the MISUNDERSTANDING JEWS (I can only believe this was trinitarian alteration to the scriptures) were claiming that Jesus, in calling himself, “Son of God”, was saying that “HE TOO WAS GOD”... on the ridiculous basis that ‘A Son was EQUAL TO HIS FATHER’... .. by the way, I have tried looking up where this ultra-nonsense cane from (son equal to Father) and have found not a single scrap of evidence... hence I can only see it as a tragic desperation from the trinitarian camp! The Jew KNEW and BELIEVED in ONLY ONE GOD... so ANOTHER GOD... no!!! And even the awful state of ‘Jesus is EQUAL to God means HE IS GOD’... that’s not even sense to a kindergarten kid: Daddy trying to replace a dead kitten with another EQUAL to the first, the kid says, ‘it may be EQUAL BUT IT’S NOT THE SAME!!’ Yet we have adult linguistic EXPERTS and professionals who cannot see it (Emperor’s clothes!!!?? ** ask if you don’t know the story!!)

So, John 1:1... Lets use context as well:

• “In the beginning was the Word [OF YHWH]” (caps not required!!) This is the word that created the world: ‘Let there be light’.
• “And the word [of YHWH] was with YHWH”... The word that created all things was ‘the word of God’
• “And the word [of YHWH] was ‘ALMIGHTY’ (Heroic, Majestic, monumental, overarching, glorious, RULING...)
• “It was in the beginning as YHWH’s desire”

But we are not to limit ‘the word’ to just the creation. John 1-19 is a SUMMARY....!!! John has compacted what Moses says into 19 verses... very little room for exactments or explanations.

Yhwh ALSO spoke the words that there would be SALVATION by the seed of a woman following the fall from Grace of the first man, Adam, who brought sin into the world. AND LOW AND BEHOLD ‘YHWH’s word on that matter “TOOK ON FLESH” : BECAME REAL...

The Jews knew all this would happen... they just didn’t know WHEN! The oppression by the Romans drew them into clamouring for the salvation. They expected a WARRIOR KING... destruction of their roman oppressors... so when ‘mild mannered Clarke Kent’ came along preaching ‘Peace and love your oppressors’, they naturally rejected their ‘Salvation’!! (“The word of God was in the world but but they knew it not”... don’t worry if it says, ‘Him’ or It’s... that’s all about what translators WANT you to read... read and believe for yourself!! The ‘word of God’ is an ‘IT’.)

Ok, that’s enough for you to see and understand that you need to REPLACE the word “God” with the proper reference of ‘YHWH’, ‘Judge/Ruler/Hero/Might [one]... etc’ AS APPROPRIATED BY CONTEXT and not just blindly imagine it ALWAYS MEANS ‘YHWH GOD’...

Why do you not get confused then when the demon Angel known as ‘SATAN’ (a TITLE.... not his NAME!!) is ALSO CALLED “GOD”?

Why? Because you DONT WANT TO CALL SATAN, ‘YHWH’... but you don’t see that you should not call Jesus ‘YHWH’ when the verse states: “Therefore, O God, your God has anointed you, pouring out the oil of joy on you more than on anyone else.” (Hebrews 1:9). Trinity claims that Jesus is being called ‘O God’ but that is not so... of course when you swap in the correct context, you know that it is saying:

• “Therefore, O MIGHTY KING, your God [YHWH] has anointed you, pouring out the oil of joy on you more than on anyone else.

And you QUALIFY this context by referring to the original verse in Psalm 47:7, where KING DAVID is the ‘O GOD’ in the framework... here, YHWH is staring that David has been anointed (Set aside for kingship and/or Priesthood to God... so how can he be God if he is priest TO GOD?) and we know that David was indeed anointed with holy oil by God’s holy priest, Samuel. So, is David, therefore, “YHWH GOD”... or ANOTHER “God”.. or one of the other meanings of the TITLE, “God”...

Now you know the truth... re-examine John 1—19.

 

[Oeste]

lmost every version of John 10:33 that I’ve checked, says “God”...that the Jews were saying that Jesus was implying that he was God.

Correct! Their may be a few aberrant "a god" translations out there, but the vast majority translate the verse correctly.

Is this accurate? (It certainly fits with mainstream teachings of Christendom.)

Yes, it is accurate.

Well, there is a very easy way to determine what was actually said and meant.

All four Gospel accounts record the “raking over the coals” Jesus received from the High Priest and the other religious leaders, they were even looking to find false witnesses against him, so great was their hatred!

Why are you jumping

Yet, never once did anyone accuse Jesus of implying he was God, which they certainly would have done if those Jews had accused him of such!!

And no wonder, you're in the wrong court room! The crowd surrounding Jesus at John 10:33 doesn't drag Jesus to the Sanhedrin for trial @Hockeycowboy. Instead the group holds an "immediate" trial right then and there by picking up stones, and when Jesus asks them what the charge is, the crowd tells him it's for blasphemy.

It’s obvious that the verse should read, “a god”, which was the argument Jesus proceeded with, at John 10:34.

Not quite.

The charge is for blasphemy remember? In Jewish law the only form of blasphemy which is punishable by death is blaspheming the name of the Lord (Leviticus 24:16), and the only reason the Jews are going to stone Jesus is if they think Jehovah is "a god". Even the Watchtower admits Jehovah is God and not "a god".

In short, if Jesus makes himself "a god" there is no reason for the crowd to pick up stones. Also, let's remember the Jews are occupied by pagan Rome. Allowing temple Jews to stone people simply for making themselves 'a god" (powerful person) might send a powerful message to Rome ("Hey Caesar, look what we Jews do to 'gods' around here!") but would certainly not be the wisest of political moves.

Lastly, I am rather surprised to see JW's arguing for "Evidence of 'a god' at John 10:33" when the Watchtower has specifically told us no such evidence exists.

· 66 Jesus told those who wanted to stone him that he had not claimed to be God or a god, even though Psalm 82:6 had called some men, some Israelite judges, “gods.”

- The Watchtower—9/15/1962 pp. 560-567

source: Prehuman Existence — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY (see paragraph 66)
​

Are you guys claiming the WT's assessment of John 10:33 over the last 58 years is incorrect?

 

[Soapy]

Correct! Their may be a few aberrant "a god" translations out there, but the vast majority translate the verse correctly.



Yes, it is accurate.



And no wonder, you're in the wrong court room! The crowd surrounding Jesus at John 10:33 doesn't drag Jesus to the Sanhedrin for trial @Hockeycowboy. Instead the group holds an "immediate" trial right then and there by picking up stones, and when Jesus asks them what the charge is, the crowd tells him it's for blasphemy.




Not quite.

The charge is for blasphemy remember? In Jewish law the only form of blasphemy which is punishable by death is blaspheming the name of the Lord (Leviticus 24:16), and the only reason the Jews are going to stone Jesus is if they think Jehovah is "a god". Even the Watchtower admits Jehovah is God and not "a god".

In short, if Jesus makes himself "a god" there is no reason for the crowd to pick up stones. Also, let's remember the Jews are occupied by pagan Rome. Allowing temple Jews to stone people simply for making themselves 'a god" (powerful person) might send a powerful message to Rome ("Hey Caesar, look what we Jews do to 'gods' around here!") but would certainly not be the wisest of political moves.

Lastly, I am rather surprised to see JW's arguing for "Evidence of 'a god' at John 10:33" when the Watchtower has specifically told us no such evidence exists.

· 66 Jesus told those who wanted to stone him that he had not claimed to be God or a god, even though Psalm 82:6 had called some men, some Israelite judges, “gods.”

- The Watchtower—9/15/1962 pp. 560-567

source: Prehuman Existence — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY (see paragraph 66)
​

Are you guys claiming the WT's assessment of John 10:33 over the last 58 years is incorrect?

Why do you guys strain at a ‘gnat of knowledge’?

If you check the DEFINITION of the word, “God”, you will find that it can be applied to MANY PERSONS OR THINGS:

• ‘Money’ can be a God - Your God
• A Judge in his courtroom IS “GOD” IN THAT COURTROOM
• A [Jewish] Father is ‘GOD OF HIS HOUSEHOLD’
• More...

Therefore there can be ‘A God’, ‘Gods’, as one of many in a context (Indefinite.... as above) - or there can be ONLY ONE GOD (Definite) as in THE ALMIGHTY GOD of the Jews.

The Jews believed in ONLY ONE GOD (context: Heavenly Deity) therefore Jesus COULD BE CALLED “A GOD” without violating the Jewish belief in “THE GOD”.

Really and truly, the definition of “God” (the TITLE) is just one of like: a RULER, a Heroic one , a Monumental one, a glorious one, an extreme superior one, a righteous judgeful one, a mighty one.... EACH IN A CONTEXT...

The chess player at the top of his game as supreme chess champion is THE GOD OF CHESS (context: Chess ... and ... until another champion comes along / this is HUMAN... HEAVENLY GOD is SPIRIT AND IMMUTABLE SPIRIT at that and there can be no change in him: He IS.. he ALWAYS SND ETERNALLY IS... he says: ‘I Am’ is my name which mean he never changes. Humanity DOES CHANGE....

So Jesus ONLY SAID that he was [THE JEWISH GOD’s] SON... it is CLAIMED by Trinitarians that this ‘Sonship’ made Jesus EQUAL WITH THE ONE AND ONLY ALMIGHTY GOD ... and rather stupidly, that being EQUAL TO THE ALMIGHTY GOD makes Jesus ALMIGHTY GOD HIMSELF....

But remember that TRINITY ALSO DEFINES “God” as “Essence and Nature”... can you believe it... Trinity claims that Jesus is EQUAL TO ESSENCE SND NATURE .... AT THE SAMD TIME AS JESUS BEING ACTUAL ESSENCE AND NATURE...

Please please please read that carefully.. you will find it TRUE ... and expressing complete NONSENSE... and that is right.., it is TRUE that trinity claims this ... and it is true that it is nonsense... ipso facto: trinity claims ARE NONSENSE.

Imagine also if “God” here was defined as being “The Father”... Jesus is equal to GOD (The Father) and therefore IS GOD (the Father)....

‘Nuff said...!!!

 

[Oeste]

Why do you guys strain at a ‘gnat of knowledge’?

How long will you waver between two opinions?

• ‘Money’ can be a God - Your God

• A Judge in his courtroom IS “GOD” IN THAT COURTROOM

• A [Jewish] Father is ‘GOD OF HIS HOUSE

There is only one God for Christians @Soapy. We don't have one God in our pocket, another in the courtroom, and another at home. All the Gods you've mentioned are nothing but false Gods.

If money is your God follow Him, but if the Lord is your God, follow Him.

Therefore there can be ‘A God’, ‘Gods’, as one of many in a context (Indefinite.... as above) - or there can be ONLY ONE GOD (Definite) as in THE ALMIGHTY GOD of the Jews.

All that was settled a long time ago by Elijah at Mount Carmel. See 1 Kings 18:18-39

The Jews believed in ONLY ONE GOD (context: Heavenly Deity) therefore Jesus COULD BE CALLED “A GOD” without violating the Jewish belief in “THE GOD”

That makes one God too many. BTW, the Jews by that time were strictly monotheistic. I don't think they would have bought into your multi-God scenario.

The chess player at the top of his game as supreme chess champion is THE GOD OF CHESS (context: Chess

My goodness! How many Gods do you have? Did you ever take the time to count them up??

Imagine also if “God” here was defined as being “The Father”... Jesus is equal to GOD (The Father) and therefore IS GOD (the Father)....

You're confusing Trinitarian Christology with Sabellianism again.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Lastly, I am rather surprised to see JW's arguing for "Evidence of 'a god' at John 10:33" when the Watchtower has specifically told us no such evidence exists.

Oh..grief.
Do I really need to spell everything out?

The whole point of this thread, is to reveal that the evidence shows that the Scripture - John 10:33 - should read “a god”.

There is only one God Christians should worship: 1 Corinthians 8:5-6; John 4:23-24; John 17:3.

How can you miss the point?

 

[Soapy]

How long will you waver between two opinions?



There is only one God for Christians @Soapy. We don't have one God in our pocket, another in the courtroom, and another at home. All the Gods you've mentioned are nothing but false Gods.

If money is your God follow Him, but if the Lord is your God, follow Him.



All that was settled a long time ago by Elijah at Mount Carmel. See 1 Kings 18:18-39



That makes one God too many. BTW, the Jews by that time were strictly monotheistic. I don't think they would have bought into your multi-God scenario.



My goodness! How many Gods do you have? Did you ever take the time to count them up??



You're confusing Trinitarian Christology with Sabellianism again.

Hmmm... I see why you guys are still debating (or maybe discussing).

The fact of lack of definition of what you are ‘discussing’ is lost on you.

The WORD.... the TERM ... I said, the DEFINITION of the word... “God”, is as I showed you... Do not think of the WORD as a PERSON... it simply means like ’Monarch’, ‘King’, ‘Ruler’, but also ‘Hero’, ‘Majestic’, ‘Highest... greatest... masterful... ‘

Now you have a definition you can apply the word, ‘God’ in all places it occurs in the old and new testaments.

For instance:

• ‘Thy throne, o God, will be an everlasting throne’

In the New Testament, this is applied to Jesus. In this CONTEXT it is said by false teachings that Jesus is being called ‘God’... but apply the definition:

• ‘Thy throne, o mighty one, will be an everlasting throne’

Now, bare in mind that the verse was spoken to KING DAVID in the Old Testament... but no one thinks King David is being called ‘God’, there!!!

You greatly misunderstand in claiming I am advocating many ‘God’ DEITIES. I expressly stated that there is ‘ONLY ONE GOD’ as Deity... deity being ‘one who TO BE worshipped’.

Here, this distinguishes, as you may say, ‘false gods’ of the wood and stone type. These are physical visualisations such as statues, ornaments, ... material things.These are still ‘GODS’ to their believers... Point of order: You cannot DISMISS the belief of others JUST BECAUSE you don’t believe them. Think! That mindset means THEY would dismiss YOUR BELIEF JUST AS SUMPLY!!!!!!
No, the physical pagan GODS are as real to THEM as the spiritual ONLY GOD is to us (to me, anyway!!) HOWEVER, my belief accepts that the DEFINITION OF THE WORD ‘GOD’ means the same ... a mighty one, a mightiest, one to revere. And, of course there are SPIRIT GODS who must be imagined... gods of the Hindu’s, Sihk’s, Egyptians, philistines, Greeks.........

• These are:the MIGHTY ONES of their believers...
• These are the GODS of their believers...

I ask you, what does it mean when YHWH said:

• “For YHWH your God is the God of gods and Lord of lords. He is the great God, the mighty and awesome God, who shows no partiality and cannot be bribed.” (Deuteronomy 10:17)

And Jesus says concerning YHWH and the prophets and holy men:

• “If he [YHWH] called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken” (John 10:35)

And similar in:

• 1 Corinthians 8:5
• 2 Thessalonians 2:4

AND think of John 1:1-...

• ‘In the beginning was the word... and the word was A MIGHTY ONE... it was in the beginning with YHWH... And YHWH’s word BECAME FLESH.. and dwelt among us... IT WAS IN THE WORLD BUT THE WORLD KNEW IT NOT...’

You can now see that there IS NO CONTENTION about whether ‘God’ or ‘A God’... YOU argue vehemently that as Jews and Christians you believe in ONLY ONE GOD... (as do I) but you REFUSE to understand what the TERM, the WORD, the MEANING ... of “God”, is... therefore you continue to misconstrue the verses and meanings of what scriptures says ... EVEN WHEN PRESENTED with CLEAR AND OBVIOUS ACCREDITED STATEMENTS and interpretations.

Remember: a pagan BELIEVES in HIS GODS and denies our ONLY GOD just as much as we deny theirs... who is right? Well, each of us is right by our own belief BUT ULTIMATELY there can be only ONE TRUE GOD... even with pagans, there is ONLY ONE TRUE ALMIGHTY (of Gods).

Please try placing the APPROPRIATE DEFINITION of the WORD, “God” where you see it AND replace “LORD” (all caps) with YHWH (believe me, he won’t be angry with you as long as you are reverential, righteous, and respectfully pious about it)

When you do, many scriptures verses will suddenly become clear to you.

Deut 30:3:

• “God, your God, will restore everything you lost; he'll have compassion on you; he'll come back and pick up the pieces from all the places where you were scattered.”

Is Israel here being called ‘God’.... I smile dejectedly at those who cannot see the same thing being spoken of Jesus: ‘God, your God, will ....’
Here, Trinitarians absolutely claim that Jesus is being called ‘GOD’... yet YHWH is stating that Jesus (the person or entity the quote was directed towards..) IS ALMIGHTY GOD: YHWH. Can’t you see that it makes no sense... clearly, Deuteronomy is saying ‘YHWH, your MIGHTY ONE, will restore YOU [Israel] as a nation’. Why would JESUS need RESTORING AS GOD... is that even possible... absurdly NO!!!!! Why? Because he NEVER WAS nor EVER WILL BE ‘ALMIGHTY GOD’... you know and believe there is ONLY ONE TRUE ALMIGHTY GOD... nothing Spiritual can BECOME ALMIGHTY ... the ALMIGHTY Mighty One Is IMMUTABLY AND ETERNALLY SO...

BUT anyone IN CONTEXT can become FLESHLY ALMIGHTY FOR A PERIOD... oh, isnt jesus said to take the POWER AND AUTHORITY OF YHWH and sit on his throne to bring about the restoration of humanity over Satan... AND AFTERWARDS HAND BACK THE POWER AND AUTHORITY TO HIM WHO GAVE IT TO HIM....’

Think before you knee jerk your response!!! Please.

 

[Brian2]

Therefore there can be ‘A God’, ‘Gods’, as one of many in a context (Indefinite.... as above) - or there can be ONLY ONE GOD (Definite) as in THE ALMIGHTY GOD of the Jews.

Matt 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Jesus had already been called "my God" by Thomas and now Jesus says that He, had been given all power and authority. He is Almighty. He had been given this because He is the Son and is subject to His Father and He was a man on earth where He had given up His rights and relied on God His Father.

Imagine also if “God” here was defined as being “The Father”... Jesus is equal to GOD (The Father) and therefore IS GOD (the Father)....
‘Nuff said...!!!

Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Jesus is the Son of His Father but is also our Eternal Father. His is Eternal and is our Father.

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one.” 31 At this, the Jews again picked up stones to stone Him.…

The Jews knew what He meant and Jesus emphasised it a few verses later.

John 10:36..............Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

 

[Brian2]

There is only one God Christians should worship: 1 Corinthians 8:5-6; John 4:23-24; John 17:3.

If I worship the Father I am worshipping the Son also who is in the Father. If I worship the Son I am worshipping the Father also who is in Him.
And we should honour the Son just as we honour the Father.

John 5:18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgement to the Son, 23 that all may honour the Son just as they honour the Father. Whoever does not honour the Son does not honour the Father, who sent him.

 

[Brian2]

Please note that it is written the child WILL BE called savior. Jesus died. He was resurrected. God cannot die. When he was resurrected he was seen by many.

Matt 10:28. Do not fear those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
It seems the WT had bigger theological fish to fry when they decided to fiddle with the meaning of soul and spirit and death. They had the deity of Jesus in mind.

 

[Brian2]

That's right. Thomas may have said "the God of me." (I'm not looking at the Greek, but it still makes sense.) I am saying that Jesus is not "the God" of himself. Jesus HAS "a God." First of all, remember that Thomas was doubtful. Until he saw the resurrected Jesus. Thus he exclaimed in astonishment. Jesus did say all judging was to be done by him, he definitely is in the position of -- God. But not equal to His God and Father, who gave him that authority.
John 5:22 - New King James Version
For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
(The Father committted all judging to Jesus.) If I saw Jesus at this point I probably wouldn't call him my God, but I would certainly understand he has power over me given him by the Father. Then again, I might in my awe call him O Lord, but I would also know that his Father is GREATER than he. I might exclaim O Jehovah! in astonishment if I saw Jesus sitting on the throne because I love him so much, but I know he is not Jehovah. I also know Jesus would know what I meant.

I doubt that an exclamation of astonishment amongst the Jews was "My Lord and My God".
Actually Jesus replied to this "Because you have seen you believe."
Thomas knew the teachings of Jesus and that His claim to being the Son of God was a claim to equality with God His Father,,,,,,,,,,,,just as the Jews knew it and tried to stone Him for claiming it.
If you look at Ps 22 you will see that the Father became the God of Jesus from Jesus mother's womb. Before that He was not a man and was with and in His Father in heaven.
Phil 2 is about humility between persons who are equal in a church and Jesus humility to His Father is the example given. The WT has worked hard to not recognise that obvious fact.
So after humbling Himself Jesus the man was raised up by His Father and given the equality that He did not take by refusing to become a man. Jesus inherits His Father's name, the name above all names. Jesus actually is Jehovah.
And in the beginning, before the creation of anything (remembering Jesus created all things) Jesus was with His Father and was as much God as His Father, the one true God in whom is Jesus, His Son.

 

[Oeste]

Oh..grief.

Do I really need to spell everything out?

On this forum? Yes. It's the nature of the medium.

The whole point of this thread, is to reveal that the evidence shows that the Scripture - John 10:33 - should read “a god”.

Who should we believe? You who tells us Jesus was making himself "a god" at John 10:33, or the Watchtower who says he wasn't?

· 66 Jesus told those who wanted to stone him that he had not claimed to be God or a god, even though Psalm 82:6 had called some men, some Israelite judges, “gods.”

- The Watchtower—9/15/1962 pp. 560-567

source: Prehuman Existence — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY (see paragraph 66)

There is only one God Christians should worship: 1 Corinthians 8:5-6; John 4:23-24; John 17:3.

You are describing henotheism (monolatry) which is simply another form of polytheism.

hen·o·the·ism
/ˈhenōTHēˌizəm,ˌhenōˈTHē-/
Learn to pronounce

noun
noun: henotheism

1. adherence to one particular god out of several, especially by a family, tribe, or other group.

Christianity has always been monotheistic, so there is only one God. Not just one God we worship with a bunch of side Gods, but only one God.

How can you miss the point?

I think I've already made it.

First, you erroneously conflated the crowd attempting to stone Jesus at John 10:33 with his trial before the Sanhedrin. This was in your opening post.

Secondly, you did not follow WT guidance on John 10:33. Instead much of your "evidence" appears to come from Non-Watchtower sources. The WT recognizes the problems with Jesus calling himself "a god" at John 10:33, your non WT sources do not.

Third, and this is the point you've totally missed, is that the Temple Jews would have never have picked up stones if they thought Jesus was simply making himself out to be "a god". Stoning for blasphemy only occurs when you blaspheme the Name of the Lord, and making yourself "a god" just doesn't cut it.

 

[Muffled]

Of course God is a title. Thomas was saying he was his YHWH and his God (using Aramaic or Hebrew words). YHWH is the name. Adonai was a title they substituted for God's name. And El or Elohim are Hebrew words that get translated into our language as God

I believe it is true that Jews substituted adonai for YHWH at times but that doesn't mean that it happened every time adonai was used. Without context it is unlikely you could read the person's mind and know whether the was doing that or not. My question is this: Would Thomas have to use the name in order to consider Him Lord? If I address how great I think my pastor is I don't call him JIm, I call him pastor.

 

[Muffled]

Sorry about the tree falling on your house. Hope it can be repaired quickly. I would hope that what you say about God makes sense to you, otherwise it would kind of be like talking in tongues and the speaker doesn't know what he's saying.

My son looked it over and said there was no damage. The tree made plenty of noise when it fell.

I believe I try to convey more information than is present in the simple word Trinity. People have a way of imagining their own concepts of it.

 

[Soapy]

Matt 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Jesus had already been called "my God" by Thomas and now Jesus says that He, had been given all power and authority. He is Almighty. He had been given this because He is the Son and is subject to His Father and He was a man on earth where He had given up His rights and relied on God His Father.



Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Jesus is the Son of His Father but is also our Eternal Father. His is Eternal and is our Father.

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one.” 31 At this, the Jews again picked up stones to stone Him.…

The Jews knew what He meant and Jesus emphasised it a few verses later.

John 10:36..............Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

You were obviously taught the fallacy of trinity and find it hard to see the truth that is presented to you.

I am bemused that you say Jesus gave up his rights [of being God, I presume] and became man... You are saying that Jesus WAS GOD. Is that right?

And that, being THE IMMUTABLE MIGHTY ONE, Jesus - as THE INSEPARABLE THREE-SOME GOD - he SEPARATED HIMSELF from the other two by giving up BEING GOD.... is that what you are saying?

But WHERE in scriptures is this written?

You present the common verse from Isaiah stating that a child would be born AT SOME FUTURE TIME from that prophesied after Isaiah. BUT THEN you claim that Jesus, being that child, WAS ALREADY ETERNAL FATHER... despite the FACT the verse says that he SHALL BECOME....

I’m confused as how you reconcile these things.

Can I put it to you that Jesus SHALL BECOME ETERNAL FATHER at the judgement seat at the end of time. ‘Father’, means, “TO GIVE LIFE TO” (among other things!) ... and you know the verse where Jesus says:

• ‘As the Father has life in himself, so also HE HAS GRANTED THE SON TO HAVE LIFE IN HIMSELF” (paraphrased)

Here, Jesus is being GIVEN THE POWER TO GIVE LIFE TO HIS FELLOW MAN... not like the miracle resurrections in which the resurrected people WENT ON TO DIE at some later time, but to give ETERNAL LIFE to mankind (of his choosing)... When Jesus JUDGES MANKIND AT THE SECOND RESURRECTION, he will select those who he deems unworthy and eternally destroy their spirit... but those he selects as worthy, he will GRANT THEM ETERNAL LIFE in Paradise.

So, you see, Jesus ‘FATHERS’ those whom he selects as worthy... he ‘GIVES THEM LIFE ETERNAL’... ‘Eternal Father’.....

Your other verses don’t make sense as an argument... Jesus claiming he didn’t call himself God : ‘I only said I was the Son of Gods : only declares the DEFINITION OF “Son of God”:

• “He who does the works of the Father”

Jesus challenges them on the definition:

• “If you don’t believe what I said stating that I am the son of God then why not believe by the works that I am doing??!” (Paraphrased)

For goodness only knows what reason, the Jews ridiculously (APPEARED TO) believe that:

• being the Son of God meant being “EQUAL TO GOD”...
  AND that:
• being equal to God mean BEING GOD!!!

Well, come on... please.... please... Being EQUAL TO SOMETHING cannot mean BEING THE THING BEING EQUALED TO...

But not only that but you said that Jesus had GIVEN UP BEING GOD... so you are saying:

1. Jesus was god but gave up being god
2. Jesus was a baby prophesied to be eternal father but he already was eternal father
3. Jesus was the son of god but was god because the Jews wrongly accused him of being so despite Jesus vehemently stating he said no such thing as god nor equal to god
4. You believe Jesus is equal to the Father despite Jesus staying that the Father was greater than he.....!!

I can go on but I think you get the gist!! There are so many anomalies in your belief ideology ... I would hazard a guess that you can resolve none of them with any credence or verasity.

 

[Soapy]

On this forum? Yes. It's the nature of the medium.



Who should we believe? You who tells us Jesus was making himself "a god" at John 10:33, or the Watchtower who says he wasn't?

​

You are describing henotheism (monolatry) which is simply another form of polytheism.

hen·o·the·ism
/ˈhenōTHēˌizəm,ˌhenōˈTHē-/
Learn to pronounce

noun
noun: henotheism

1. adherence to one particular god out of several, especially by a family, tribe, or other group.

Christianity has always been monotheistic, so there is only one God. Not just one God we worship with a bunch of side Gods, but only one God.




I think I've already made it.

First, you erroneously conflated the crowd attempting to stone Jesus at John 10:33 with his trial before the Sanhedrin. This was in your opening post.

Secondly, you did not follow WT guidance on John 10:33. Instead much of your "evidence" appears to come from Non-Watchtower sources. The WT recognizes the problems with Jesus calling himself "a god" at John 10:33, your non WT sources do not.

Third, and this is the point you've totally missed, is that the Temple Jews would have never have picked up stones if they thought Jesus was simply making himself out to be "a god". Stoning for blasphemy only occurs when you blaspheme the Name of the Lord, and making yourself "a god" just doesn't cut it.

What is with you guys.....!!!!

JESUS WAS DENYING THAT HE CALLED HIMSELF ‘GOD’.

He stated that he SAID, ‘I only said that GOD WAS MY FATHER’...

Trinity and the Jews (it seems!!) appeared to believe that being the Son of God (‘God is my Father’) meant Jesus was saying he was EQUAL TO THE FATHER...

...PLEASE CAN SOMEONE SHOW ME A VALID JEWISH RENDERING OF THIS???? I bet not!!!!

And that being EQUAL to the Father .... Ha ha ha ... ((do you see the Father and GOD are here being absolutely linked)) meant he WAS THE FATHER ... (oops, ... meant he was GOD!!!) ha ha ha... I’m creased up in sadness for trinity belief!!!!!

Besides, DIDNT Jesus just before (or after?) STATE THAT THE Father (that GOD...) was GREATER THAN HE!!!!!

Wow, you guys are disputing with each other over this?????? Can you guys add two and two!!!!?

 

[Oeste]

JESUS WAS DENYING THAT HE CALLED HIMSELF ‘GOD’.

He stated that he SAID, ‘I only said that GOD WAS MY FATHER’...

Somehow I think Soapy is saying this and not Jesus.

Besides, DIDNT Jesus just before (or after?) STATE THAT THE Father (that GOD...) was GREATER THAN HE!!!!!

Jesus is the Son of Man, so of course the Father is greater than he.

But Jesus is also the Son of God, and thus equal.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Who should we believe? You who tells us Jesus was making himself "a god" at John 10:33, or the Watchtower who says he wasn't?

Actually, it was the Jews who claimed this. They had murderous intent, by this time. And they were liars. See John 8

Interesting, though, that they never accused him of being God at His trial. Because he never did!

Questions: Do you recognize the Bible calls Satan, “the god of this world”? Does that make the Bible henotheistic? Did not Paul say, “there are many gods....?”
Your accusation of henotheism falls flat.

 

[Oeste]

Actually, it was the Jews who claimed this. They had murderous intent, by this time. And they were liars. See John 8

No, it's actually the Watchtower that claims Jesus was making himself "a god", not the Jews. As I've already pointed out, there is no charge of blasphemy inherent with making yourself "a god", so there' absolutely no reason why these Temple Jews would have picked up stones.

Interesting, though, that they never accused him of being God at His trial. Because he never did!

He was accused of blasphemy, and you don't blaspheme if you simply claim you're "a god".

Questions: Do you recognize the Bible calls Satan, “the god of this world”? Does that make the Bible henotheistic? Did not Paul say, “there are many gods....?”

He also says that for Christians there is but one God. This makes any so-called god a false god.

Your accusation of henotheism falls flat.

The shoe fits Hockeycowboy. You've just testified to it in your response to me here.

 

[YoursTrue]

No, it's actually the Watchtower that claims Jesus was making himself "a god", not the Jews. As I've already pointed out, there is no charge of blasphemy inherent with making yourself "a god", so there' absolutely no reason why these Temple Jews would have picked up stones.



He was accused of blasphemy, and you don't blaspheme if you simply claim you're "a god".



He also says that for Christians there is but one God. This makes any so-called god a false god.



The shoe fits Hockeycowboy. You've just testified to it in your response to me here.

The trial was a setup job. They brought false witnesses in. They didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah. They didn't want to believe it.