• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Evidence for “a god” at John 10:33

Status
Not open for further replies.

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
YoursTrue hello.. You asked which word was translated as angels? I say.. I am not sure... Angels is translated as "Angels" Thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honor.

? Oh?
The word that angels is translated from is from the Hebrew word, ELOHIM. Did you know that? You can go to a Hebrew-English interlinear and see that the English term "ANGELS" comes from the Hebrew word Elohim,
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
REGARDING THE WORD ELOHIM AND IT'S ASSOCIATED MEANING OF "GOD" OR "GODS".


Yourstrue said : “Hello Clear. Elohim is plural. It can mean gods or God or judges…” (Post #350)
Clear said : “I cannot tell if you are theorizing that Elohim actually simply means "judges" or, as I suggest, it does not lose it base meaning, but instead applies some Godlike characteristic to the person to who the name "God" or adjective "Godlike" is applied as the several examples in early sacred literature demonstrated in the post above. (post #352)
For example, can you give us the example where simple Judges are called "Elohim" and we can discuss the reference and see if the base meaning of "God" or "elohim" actually changes to mean "judges" or if the judges are seen has having some Godlike characteristic.”

Yourstrue said : “Please look at Psalm 8:5 and tell me what you see as that which is sometimes translated as angels. I will wait for your answer as to which word is often translated as angels.” (post #354)


TRANSLATION OF A WORD VERSUS REPLACEMENT OF A WORD

In the LXX of 300 b.c. the Greek word αγγελους (gk “angels”) is and has been translated as “angels”.

In the Masoretic of medieval age, the same verse reads “…you have appointed him [to be] a little lower than the gods…” אלה'מ / Elohim (heb “gods”). While I have never seen this properly TRANSLATED as “angels”, I have seen many bibles that have REPLACED the word Angels for the word God. I suspect you have also never seen Elohim properly translated as “angels”. Replacement is different than translation.

Historians have long debated why the Masoretes of the middle ages used Elohim or “Gods” in this verse rather than using Malakim or “angels” as the earlier Jews of 300 b.c. did when making the Septuagint translation if they meant "angels" instead of "gods". Was it a mistake carried over from another version of the text or was it a reading of a theology into the text as often happens? The Masoretes were usually quite rigid in the type of changes they made to the original text (as they tell us in the Massorah) and so it would make MORE sense if they had used the word for angels, instead of the word for Gods (and which was used in their translation of 300 b.c.).

My point is not which is correct, nor is it a theological point. I am making a specific a point of translation and meaning of this word elohim in the ancient literature. If elohim is applied to another being, it is because that being has some characteristic of a God (elohim). The words'use as an adjective is not divorced from its base meaning.

In any case, and for whatever reason, angels replaced gods in many versions, many other versions based on the masoreric kept the correct translations of "gods” instead of replacing the text with “angels”.

However, none of this has anything to do with your claim that Elohim can mean “judges” without reference to a godly characteristic.

I asked for an example verse so we can discuss it. Can you provide one so we can discuss it. I remain convinced that the word “elohim” cannot be divorced from it’s base meaning of God or Gods and that when the word is applied to any other being, then it refers to the other being as having some characteristic of Elohim as I showed in examples from the dead sea scroll literature and from early Christian literature in post #349.


Do you have any verse where Elohim simply means “judges” that you want to discuss?

Clear
σιτωφισεω
 
Last edited:

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
REGARDING THE WORD ELOHIM AND IT'S ASSOCIATED MEANING OF "GOD" OR "GODS".


Yourstrue said : “Hello Clear. Elohim is plural. It can mean gods or God or judges…” (Post #350)
Clear said : “I cannot tell if you are theorizing that Elohim actually simply means "judges" or, as I suggest, it does not lose it base meaning, but instead applies some Godlike characteristic to the person to who the name "God" or adjective "Godlike" is applied as the several examples in early sacred literature demonstrated in the post above. (post #352)
For example, can you give us the example where simple Judges are called "Elohim" and we can discuss the reference and see if the base meaning of "God" or "elohim" actually changes to mean "judges" or if the judges are seen has having some Godlike characteristic.”

Yourstrue said : “Please look at Psalm 8:5 and tell me what you see as that which is sometimes translated as angels. I will wait for your answer as to which word is often translated as angels.” (post #354)


TRANSLATION OF A WORD VERSUS REPLACEMENT OF A WORD

In the LXX of 300 b.c. the Greek word αγγελους (gk “angels”) is and has been translated as “angels”.

In the Masoretic of medieval age, the same verse reads “…you have appointed him [to be] a little lower than the gods…” אלה'מ / Elohim (heb “gods”). While I have never seen this properly TRANSLATED as “angels”, I have seen many bibles that have REPLACED the word Angels for the word God. I suspect you have also never seen Elohim properly translated as “angels”. Replacement is different than translation.

Historians have long debated why the Masoretes of the middle ages used Elohim or “Gods” in this verse rather than using Malakim or “angels” as the earlier Jews of 300 b.c. did when making the Septuagint translation if they meant "angels" instead of "gods". Was it a mistake carried over from another version of the text or was it a reading of a theology into the text as often happens? The Masoretes were usually quite rigid in the type of changes they made to the original text (as they tell us in the Massorah) and so it would make MORE sense if they had used the word for angels, instead of the word for Gods (and which was used in their translation of 300 b.c.).

My point is not which is correct, nor is it a theological point. I am making a specific a point of translation and meaning of this word elohim in the ancient literature. If elohim is applied to another being, it is because that being has some characteristic of a God (elohim). The words'use as an adjective is not divorced from its base meaning.

In any case, and for whatever reason, angels replaced gods in many versions, many other versions based on the masoreric kept the correct translations of "gods” instead of replacing the text with “angels”.

However, none of this has anything to do with your claim that Elohim can mean “judges” without reference to a godly characteristic.

I asked for an example verse so we can discuss it. Can you provide one so we can discuss it. I remain convinced that the word “elohim” cannot be divorced from it’s base meaning of God or Gods and that when the word is applied to any other being, then it refers to the other being as having some characteristic of Elohim as I showed in examples from the dead sea scroll literature and from early Christian literature in post #349.


Do you have any verse where Elohim simply means “judges” that you want to discuss?

Clear
σιτωφισεω
First of all, the Masoretic text is that which is used by the Jews now, is it not? Further, judges can be like gods in their rendering judgment on men. As far as Septuagint goes, no one really knows which versions are unchanged from original, but the point is clear. Jesus certainly applied the term to his accusers. Others can be called gods or God. Or a God. It all depends on their position. Now when Jesus said he was going to his God, he didn't mean he was going to some blob of some sort in the sky, but to a specific person he called his God. And Father.
According to the "3rd century CE Origen attempted to clear up copyists’ errors that had crept into the text of the Septuagint, which by then varied widely from copy to copy," (Britannica)
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
TrueBeliever37 I hope all is well...
I reply... "The Word became man!" John 1:14
TrueBeliever37
God became man and lived among us! Think.. Only God is perfect, Adam was created perfect but he sinned... He took in upon himself, free will to SIN! The wages of sin is death.. So Adam died; we his off spring are born into a corrupted creation, we are corrupted we are "NOT PERFECT" we sin and we die! Jesus had to be born as a man so he could die as a man! Can't die as a man if first not born as a man! God became part of his own creation!
Jesus the perfect man died... He was without sin so he popped up out of the grave as a cork rising up in a pool of water! The wages of sin is death. Sin had no hold on him! NO ONE..
TrueBeliever37 no one can die two times... You can't even kill a stinking no good for nothing mangy dog twice! Jesus rose from the grave Never Ever to die again... WHAT...
TrueBeliever37
what you have to do is get yourself into the never to die body of Jesus to live forever! You have to be "IMMERSED" into the body of Jesus!

TrueBeliever37 You say "No Trinity"! Again I ask you to think.... Scriptures are very clear.. "God is Love"! God is perfect he is perfect love! No one can love themselves... Love of self is called selfish, pride, self- centered, greedy etc! God loves perfectly, to love perfectly you NEED another or your love is selfish, proud, self- centered, greedy etc. If LOVE always was ... If God always was then he needed another to ALWAYS be with him IF...
TrueBeliever37
if even for a millisecond this "Other" was not with God then God would not be perfect.. Then TrueBeliever37 he would not be God!
Love creates the love of God is perfect, perfect love says there needs to be a good work a GIVING OF SELF for another! Love of Father & word/Son means there MUST be fruit Holy Spirit is the result of perfect love! If even for a millisecond this Holy Spirit was not present then God' perfect love would not be perfect he would not be God!

It sounds like you believe in the trinity. Therefore you believe in more than one God. You may claim you don't since the scriptures teach only one God. But in reality anyone believing in 3 separate distinct persons that are each God, believes in more than one God.

God didn't actually turn himself into a man. He took on the body of a man. God is an eternal Spirit. He made himself a body to dwell in, and sacrifice for man's sin. That body was the fleshly body of a man, so that it could die. That was why he took on the seed of Abraham and not that of an angel. It was necessary for that body to be able to shed blood and die. If God actually turned himself into a man, he would have become as powerless as we are. But the body of flesh he gave himself was weak. That was why the flesh prayed to the eternal Spirit for strength to overcome. The flesh had to be without sin in order to be the perfect sacrifice.

The Holy Spirit is the Father. Matthew 1:18

You need to provide scriptures, backing up all your ideas about needing someone else to be there, in order for God to be perfect.
 
Last edited:

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
? Oh?
The word that angels is translated from is from the Hebrew word, ELOHIM. Did you know that? You can go to a Hebrew-English interlinear and see that the English term "ANGELS" comes from the Hebrew word Elohim,
Okay....?
YoursTrue And your point is? Why did it take this long to tell me..... "ANGELS" comes from the Hebrew word Elohim!?
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
It sounds like you believe in the trinity. Therefore you believe in more than one God. You may claim you don't since the scriptures teach only one God. But in reality anyone believing in 3 separate distinct persons that are each God, believes in more than one God.

God didn't actually turn himself into a man. He took on the body of a man. God is an eternal Spirit. He made himself a body to dwell in, and sacrifice for man's sin. That body was the fleshly body of a man, so that it could die. That was why he took on the seed of Abraham and not that of an angel. It was necessary for that body to be able to shed blood and die. If God actually turned himself into a man, he would have become as powerless as we are. But the body of flesh he gave himself was weak. That was why the flesh prayed to the eternal Spirit for strength to overcome. The flesh had to be without sin in order to be the perfect sacrifice.

The Holy Spirit is the Father. Matthew 1:18

You need to provide scriptures, backing up all your ideas about needing someone else to be there, in order for God to be perfect.
TrueBeliever37 it's a nice sunny day here..
I reply: Nope you are wrong; All Christians and Jews believe in One God.. ! God three Persons Trinity!
The Council of Nicaea made it very clear 325 A.D. FACT IS.. They condemned Arius because he rejected Trinity! He rejected Jesus is God (Large case G) and all who believe his false teachings are NOT Christian!
Your words.. anyone believing in 3 separate distinct persons that are each God, believes in more than one God. are WRONG!
Elizabeth (A Jew) believed and said outright... "Mary is the mother of God"!

Scriptures are clear... “In the beginning was the Word.”... all things that were created were created through him. “… and the Word was God.”
The WORD (God) became flesh and lived among men! God was BORN as a man! God the Father was still in heaven God Jesus was on earth, Jesus sent God the Holy Spirit after the assention!
God the FATHER is an eternal Spirit. God the SON is both Spirit and Flesh! God the Holy Spirit is just that Spirit TEACHER and GUIDE!
1 Cor. 2:10-11 [T]he Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For what person knows a man’s thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
Paul makes clear in Romans 11:34 that no created intellect can “know the mind of the Lord.” The fact that the Spirit of God comprehends “the thoughts of God” would mean necessarily that he is, in fact, God.
According to St. Peter, lying to the Holy Spirit is equivalent to lying to God. But Peter said, “Anani’as, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? . . . You have not lied to men but to God.

LOGIC ALONE.. should be enough to tell you Love means GIVING of self to ANOTHER! You NEED ANOTHER to love! Otherwise logic alone tells you, Self Love is wrong it is selfish!
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
TrueBeliever37 it's a nice sunny day here..
I reply: Nope you are wrong; All Christians and Jews believe in One God.. ! God three Persons Trinity!
The Council of Nicaea made it very clear 325 A.D. FACT IS.. They condemned Arius because he rejected Trinity! He rejected Jesus is God (Large case G) and all who believe his false teachings are NOT Christian!
Your words.. anyone believing in 3 separate distinct persons that are each God, believes in more than one God. are WRONG!
Elizabeth (A Jew) believed and said outright... "Mary is the mother of God"!

Scriptures are clear... “In the beginning was the Word.”... all things that were created were created through him. “… and the Word was God.”
The WORD (God) became flesh and lived among men! God was BORN as a man! God the Father was still in heaven God Jesus was on earth, Jesus sent God the Holy Spirit after the assention!
God the FATHER is an eternal Spirit. God the SON is both Spirit and Flesh! God the Holy Spirit is just that Spirit TEACHER and GUIDE!
1 Cor. 2:10-11 [T]he Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For what person knows a man’s thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
Paul makes clear in Romans 11:34 that no created intellect can “know the mind of the Lord.” The fact that the Spirit of God comprehends “the thoughts of God” would mean necessarily that he is, in fact, God.
According to St. Peter, lying to the Holy Spirit is equivalent to lying to God. But Peter said, “Anani’as, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? . . . You have not lied to men but to God.

LOGIC ALONE.. should be enough to tell you Love means GIVING of self to ANOTHER! You NEED ANOTHER to love! Otherwise logic alone tells you, Self Love is wrong it is selfish!

You believe in multiple Gods.
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
You believe in multiple Gods.
TrueBeliever37 the JW's believes in multiple gods... The LDS believe in multiple gods! The Hindu the same.
Christians believe in the TRINITY & One God!
I am a Christian in the ONLY Church Jesus formed 2000 years ago! It was the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church that brought forward the idea of Trinity and "One God"!
It was the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church that removed Arius as a false teacher who rejected the Trinity & Jesus is God!

It is a shame you reject Christian teaching.
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
You believe in multiple Gods.
TrueBeliever37 There is ONLY one God!

Thomas tells you.. "Jesus is God"!' Jesus replied to Thomas: “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” God tells you: Clearly "Christians are Blessed" because we believe Jesus is God!

Jesus does NOT deny Thomas' proclamation scriptures are very clear... There is only one God!

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given
,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

7 Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty
will accomplish this.

TrueBeliever37 did you see it??? (above)
6..... For to us a child is born,
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,..........
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.



Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
Matthew 1:23The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).

TrueBeliever37 Question... What does the name Immanuel mean?

Isaiah 9:6 And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God! Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne


TrueBeliever37 Who sits/reign on David's Throne?
Luke 1:32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hi @YoursTrue

1) IT IS IRRELEVANT TO THE MEANING OF "ELOHIM" WHETHER THE MASORETIC IS OFFICIAL OR NOT
First of all, the Masoretic text is that which is used by the Jews now, is it not? ," (Britannica)
The Masoretic text of medieval production is the official bible for Rabbinic Judaism. I do not know if all groups that consider themselves orthodox "Jewish" would agree that it is their "official" bible. Just as Christian movements are not monolithic, I assume the various Jewish sects/movements will have differences. In any case, this is irrelevant to the base meaning of "elohim" as "God" or Gods" and has nothing to do with your claim that elohim is a word that means "judges".


2) IT IS IRRELEVANT TO THE MEANING OF "ELOHIM" THAT BIBLICAL TEXTS HAVE ERRORS

As far as Septuagint goes, no one really knows which versions are unchanged from original," (Britannica)
Yes, ALL early biblical texts are changed from original version. Just as no one knows what the "original" Jewish texts actually said, no one knows all the errors that crept into either the masoretic or the Septuagint or any other of the ancient biblical texts. The Jewish talmud itself tells us that there were at least three versions of texts found by hilkiah the Priest in the temple in the time of Josiah and a forth version was made, using the rule of majority" Thus, even at this early stage, there were multiple conflicting versions.

Even the dead sea Scrolls have illuminated conflicts with later texts and show changes that occurred in later texts.
For example (of interest to the Jehovahs Witnesses) is that the 11Q version of Psalms (more than a thousand years older than the midieval Masoretic version) does not use the later square-script tetragram for Jehovah, but instead still used the older paleo-hebrew script for God despite being written in a version of square script hebrew for other words. In any case, this point you make is also irrelevant to the base meaning of "elohim" as "God" or Gods" and has nothing to do with your claim that elohim is a word that means "judges"..


3) IT IS IRRELEVANT TO THE BASE MEANING OF "ELOHIM" WHETHER JESUS HAD HIS OWN GOD OR NOT
Jesus certainly applied the term to his accusers. Others can be called gods or God. Or a God. It all depends on their position. Now when Jesus said he was going to his God, he didn't mean he was going to some blob of some sort in the sky, but to a specific person he called his God. And Father. "
You could provide some example of what you are saying and try to use that data to support your theory if you want to. In any case, this is another point that is irrelevant to the base meaning of "elohim" as "God" or Gods" and has nothing to do with your claim that elohim is a word that means "judges".


4) IT IS IRRELEVANT TO THE MEANING OF "ELOHIM" WHETHER THERE ARE "ERRORS IN THE BIBLICAL TEXT

According to the "3rd century CE Origen attempted to clear up copyists’ errors that had crept into the text of the Septuagint, which by then varied widely from copy to copy," (Britannica)
Many, many, many scholars continue to attempt to determine what original texts may have said in the septuagint, the masoretic, both old and new testament texts and to repair errors. In fact, this IS one of the motives suggested as to why creators of bibles replaced the septuagint word "angels" for the Masoretic word "Gods" in Psalms 8:5.

While the Masoretes provide us with many lists of examples of errors in their Masoretic bible, as well as many lists of changes they made to their texts, one assumes the Jews who created the septuagint probably found similar errors and made changes to their text just as hilkiah and Josiah had to make changes to their early biblical text in order to produce one they could comfortably read to the people. In any case, this is yet another completely irrelevant point to the base meaning of "elohim" as "God" or Gods" and has nothing to do with your claim that elohim is a word that can simply mean "judges".



YoursTrue,
It would be much, much more efficient if you will try to provide relevant data to support your theory, rather than offer irrelevant points. OR, perhaps there is some relevance and you are not explaining HOW your points have anything to do with your theory on linguistic meaning?

In any case, the word elohim has "god" or "gods" as it's base meaning. Any application of this word such as it's use as an adjective, will not separate the word from it's base meaning but rather, it will modify the object to which the word elohim is applied. For example, your admission that judges are like God in that both God and Judges engage in judging is my point as well.

Any time the word for God (elohim) is used, it does not lose its base meaning of God or God like, and simply applies a characteristic of God to a person or thing to which it is applied. In this case, a judge. But, the meaning of elohim remains connected to God or Gods or god like, etc. It never simply means a judge. I can give you many, many examples if you wish. Can you give me even one, where elohim simply means a judge, or judges without reference to God or a characteristic of God?

Do you have any verse where Elohim simply means “judges” that you want to discuss? Any RELEVANT data you want to offer to support your theory?

In any case, I hope your journey is good and your insights in life are wonderful @YoursTrue

Clear
σιδρακφιω
 
Last edited:

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
TrueBeliever37 There is ONLY one God!

Thomas tells you.. "Jesus is God"!' Jesus replied to Thomas: “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” God tells you: Clearly "Christians are Blessed" because we believe Jesus is God!

Jesus does NOT deny Thomas' proclamation scriptures are very clear... There is only one God!

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given
,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

7 Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty
will accomplish this.

TrueBeliever37 did you see it??? (above)
6..... For to us a child is born,
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,..........
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.



Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
Matthew 1:23The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).

TrueBeliever37 Question... What does the name Immanuel mean?

Isaiah 9:6 And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God!
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne


TrueBeliever37 Who sits/reign on David's Throne?
Luke 1:32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,

Yes there is only one God. But you are failing to see that the Messiah was that one God, manifest in the flesh. You seem to think he is another person that is also God, in addition to the Father being God. You don't seem to believe his statement to Thomas - "if you have seen me you have seen the Father".

You are saying in your post you believe he is God. But you also believe there are other persons that are also God. That is belief in more than one God. Like I said before - you believe in multiple Gods.

Immanuel means God with us. And that is what I believe. He was God with us. God was the one dwelling in that body.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
TrueBeliever37 the JW's believes in multiple gods... The LDS believe in multiple gods! The Hindu the same.
Christians believe in the TRINITY & One God!
I am a Christian in the ONLY Church Jesus formed 2000 years ago! It was the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church that brought forward the idea of Trinity and "One God"!
It was the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church that removed Arius as a false teacher who rejected the Trinity & Jesus is God!

It is a shame you reject Christian teaching.


Show me in the scriptures where the Apostles taught us there was a Trinity. John didn't say God was 3 persons. John said God is a Spirit. John 4:24
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Dogknox20 said : "I am a Christian in the ONLY Church Jesus formed 2000 years ago! It was the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church that brought forward the idea of Trinity and "One God"! (post #368)

Hi @Dogknox20

While I agree that the Roman Christian organisation was fairly instrumental in creating and making popular it's version of the trinity doctrine, I just wanted to make a single, discrete point.

Dogknox20, you seem to be claiming that the organisation that became the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church is the same organization that existed in the early Christian movement. The point I wanted to make is that this is, historically, incorrect. The early Roman Congregation was simply a single congregation of the Church of Jesus Christ. The organisation that became the Roman Catholic Church of later eras had evolved into a different organisation with different goals and different methods and different type of leadership.

The later Roman Catholic church was, historically, simply another schizm movement. It became very rich and powerful and influential, but it was not the "ONLY Church Jesus formed 2000 years ago." There were many earlier congregations and many schisms. The powerful organisation that became that Roman Catholic Church is, historically a religious movement that is a product of a later age.

My point is not that their doctrines and goals were better or worse than the doctrines and goals and manner of leadership original Jesus movement. I am simply making a very discrete historical point that the later organisation known as the Roman Catholic Church was a schism of the original church.

Clear
σιφιφυσεψ
 
Last edited:

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
Dogknox20 said : "I am a Christian in the ONLY Church Jesus formed 2000 years ago! It was the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church that brought forward the idea of Trinity and "One God"! (post #368)

Hi @Dogknox20

While I agree that the Roman Christian organisation was fairly instrumental in creating and making popular it's version of the trinity doctrine, I just wanted to make a single, discrete point.

Dogknox20, you seem to be claiming that the organisation that became the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church is the same organization that existed in the early Christian movement. The point I wanted to make is that this is, historically, incorrect. The early Roman Congregation was simply a single congregation of the Church of Jesus Christ. The organisation that became the Roman Catholic Church of later eras had evolved into a different organisation with different goals and different methods and different type of leadership.

The later Roman Catholic church was, historically, simply another schizm movement. It became very rich and powerful and influential, but it was not the "ONLY Church Jesus formed 2000 years ago." There were many earlier congregations and many schisms. The powerful organisation that became that Roman Catholic Church is, historically a religious movement that is a product of a later age.

My point is not that their doctrines and goals were better or worse than the doctrines and goals and manner of leadership original Jesus movement. I am simply making a very discrete historical point that the later organisation known as the Roman Catholic Church was a schism of the original church.
Clear
σιφιφυσεψ

Clear I hope all is well with you.... I reply: I read in your post accusation but NO proof!
Ignatius wrote this in A.D. 110 “When the bishop is present, there let the congregation gather, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church
Clear did you see it? just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. 110 A.D. Did you see the Catholic Church has bishops!
The Catholic Church baptized infants back then as we still do today!
Irenaeus wrote this in A.D. 189 “He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age” (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
Dogknox20 said : "I am a Christian in the ONLY Church Jesus formed 2000 years ago! It was the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church that brought forward the idea of Trinity and "One God"! (post #368)

Hi @Dogknox20

While I agree that the Roman Christian organisation was fairly instrumental in creating and making popular it's version of the trinity doctrine, I just wanted to make a single, discrete point.

Dogknox20, you seem to be claiming that the organisation that became the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church is the same organization that existed in the early Christian movement. The point I wanted to make is that this is, historically, incorrect. The early Roman Congregation was simply a single congregation of the Church of Jesus Christ. The organisation that became the Roman Catholic Church of later eras had evolved into a different organisation with different goals and different methods and different type of leadership.

The later Roman Catholic church was, historically, simply another schizm movement. It became very rich and powerful and influential, but it was not the "ONLY Church Jesus formed 2000 years ago." There were many earlier congregations and many schisms. The powerful organisation that became that Roman Catholic Church is, historically a religious movement that is a product of a later age.

My point is not that their doctrines and goals were better or worse than the doctrines and goals and manner of leadership original Jesus movement. I am simply making a very discrete historical point that the later organisation known as the Roman Catholic Church was a schism of the original church.

Clear
σιφιφυσεψ
Hello Clear. Thinking about your text #373 I must point out.. Your words.. The later Roman Catholic church was, historically, simply another schism movement. I must reply: To believe what you believe you are forced to reject the words of God! Jesus will never leave his church he promised to be "Always with her to the end of time"! Jesus died for his Holy Blameless Church & he love's his Church!
His Church the only Church Jesus built on ROCK will never fail he built his Church on rock not on sand!
The Church of two thousand years ago believed the same things as Catholic's believe today "Infant Baptism", "Literal eating of Jesus' flesh to have eternal life", "Bishops with the Authority to command men", "Bishops that preach with authority that saves" "Confession in Church for the forgiveness of sins", "Honoring Mary the mother of God", "Praying for the dead", Praying for intersession from the Church in heaven" "Unbroken linage of Peter' successor", "Trinity", "The Authority to Close the canon of scripture!" "Tradition" etc. All was believe back then and made better or improved by study! Same church as it was formed two thousand years ago made more knowledgeable as the years pasted.

Clear You said "Roman Catholic" in your post #373 History tells you the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church Jesus formed was always just called "Catholic" it was English Protestants that gave her the name "Roman Catholic" thinking "if we call the Church "Roman" it implies there are other Catholic Churches"! You clearly have fallen for their ruse!
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
Show me in the scriptures where the Apostles taught us there was a Trinity. John didn't say God was 3 persons. John said God is a Spirit. John 4:24
Hello TrueBeliever37 .... Right off you are trusting your salvation in the Protestant TRADITION of "Scripture Alone"! FACT: There is NO scriptures about "Scriptures Alone" it is a five hundred year old man made TRADITION.. Until Martin Luther this TRADITION was unheard of! You want scriptures with the word "Trinity" or "Jesus is God and there are three"! Scriptures tell you "Listen to the Church or be treated as a pagan"!
Scriptures tell you "The Church has the AUTHORITY of God to TEACH All Nations"! Scriptures tell you "Jesus is ALWAYS WITH his Church to the end of time"! Scriptures also tell you "He who hears the Church hears Jesus & he who rejects the church rejects Jesus and God in heaven"! Scriptures tell you "The Bishop has the Authority to command men" and the "Bishops preaching will save men"!
The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church TEACHES with the AUTHORITY given to her.. "Trinity"!

You rightly point out God is Spirit, but reject "My flesh is real food" You reject "He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life"!
You said word for word (above).. "John said God is a Spirit". BUT....
TrueBeliever37 but you reject 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.
Do you see it? The Spirit gives life!? God is Spirit... He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life.
The God of the Catholic can take any form he wants to take.. He took the form of fire in the Old Testament! Our God the God of the Catholic can even take the form of bread & the form of wine!
Spirit has no form but in the case of the Catholic God he has taken the form of bread; you see bread, you smell bread, you feel bread right down to the last molecule: it is bread, it takes faith to believe God has taken the form of ordinary bread!
Catholic's believe the words of Jesus because Catholic know; God cannot lie... "My flesh is real food"!
Look at verse # 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God. From this verse #45 down to the bottom of the chapter is Jesus teaching! Jesus taught "You MUST eat his flesh to have life"! Then he continues to tell you "The Spirit Gives LIFE"!
TrueBeliever37 "God' Spirit gives life if you eat it"! God took the form of Man.... He was born as man so he could die as a man.. He looked as a man in every sense all who looked on Jesus saw "A MAN"!
He now, today, takes the form of Bread and Wine! 52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?YES....
TrueBeliever37 Yes the Jews are right; Men cannot give their flesh to eat! But God can because God is Spirit if he takes the form of bread then he is bread!
How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" Jews do not believe Jesus is God, they think he is just a man! Christians are NOT Jews; Christians have always eaten the flesh of God, Christians have always believed Jesus is God! How can GOD give us his flesh to eat?" Easy.. God can because God is almighty, OUR God can do all things even take the form of bread!
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
POST ONE OF THREE

Hi @Dog


Can we examine your claims in greater depth and "one at a time"


First, your attempt to use the adjective καθολικος (eng “Catholic”) used by Ignatius as a noun that described your Christian movement of a later age.


Dogknox said : “Ignatius wrote this in A.D. 110 “When the bishop is present, there let the congregation gather, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church” (post #374)

1) IGNATIUS USE OF “CATHOLICOS” WAS NOT REFERRING TO THE ROMAN RELIGIOUS MOVEMENT

At this early period, (within perhaps just 50 years or so of the death of the last apostle), the Roman Catholic Church as a pre-eminent, immensely rich, political, financial and religious institution did not yet exist. The congregation of Christians in Rome, in its early stages, was simply a single congregation among many.

καθολικος was not a noun, but it was an adjective simply meaning “general” or “universal”. Lists from early Greek texts have given us multiple examples where such usage occurred.

For examples : An inscription In the Sylloge Inscriptionum Graecarum 335:6 shows this specific use even in 6 b.c. In Orientis Graeci Inscriptiones Selectae (OGIS), Dittenberger gave us the example from approx. one a.d. of a Judge using καθολικον in a judgement that applied “generally”

In Agyptische Urkunden (from 135 a.d.) καθολικον was
used in this way, saying “υπερεθεμην το νυν πραγμα, επι καθολικον ην…” ("I have delayed the present matter, since it was of general (“καθολικον”) interest.”

Καθολικος was often used as a TITLE of an authority. For example, it was applied to the chief of the general department of finance”. For example the Onchrynchus Papyri example 1204 (from a.d. 299) mentions “…the most honorable catholicus Pomponius Domnus” (...τον κυριον μου τον διασημοτατον καθολικον πομπωνιον δομνον...”)

Other general rulers came under the same titles of κατολικος. For example, in honor of the prytanis, the Onchrychus Papyri says
“…ευτυχως τω καθολικω...” which is rendered prosperity to our ‘leader’ / ‘καθολικω’ “. καθολικοσ even applies in this group of Papyri (1663:15) for a subordinate official having some general authority.

My point is that this use of this adjective by Ignatius did not apply to the later economical / political / social / military / religious organization that took shape in later centuries and became the Roman Catholic Church. Ignatius was speaking of the church “universal” or the “general” churches of his day, rather than the Roman Church which took shape and became what became known as the Roman Catholic Church in a later time period.

The organization that took shape later was quite different in form and function and doctrine than the simply and single congregation Ignatius is referring to in approx. 100 a.d.


I hope this simple correction will be allowed to stand. If we have to review the reasons and history as to the differences between Ignatius Church reference and the Roman Catholic Church, I think the discussion will be counterproductive, painful and a frustrating process involving public discussion of uncomfortable points. Please accept this friendly and simple adjustment of the use of καθολικος rather than have to go through the unpleasant process of detailed discussion as to why this correction needs to be made.

That the Roman congregation was neither the original congregation, nor the oldest congregation nor do we have evidence that it’s Bishops were clotheth with any apostolic authority may already be obvious to most readers. This is not to say that the Roman Church did not evolve into an immensely powerful and influential religious force. However it is not the specific organization referred to by Ignatius' use of the word καθολικος




Dogknox said : “Clear did you see it? just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. 110 A.D. Did you see the Catholic Church has bishops!” (post #374)

2) THE LATER ROMAN CHRISTIAN RELIGIOUS MOVEMENT CHANGED THE NATURE OF THE OFFICE OF BISHOP.

Yes, the Catholic Church created an office called a “bishop”, but their bishops were not the same office that existed at the head of the original congregations.

For example, the Bishops of the later roman religious movement did not have authority of the early Bishops that were ordained and put in place by the Apostles.
The politicalization of the office of Bishop lead to an organization that sought power and riches instead of the pure religion that existed in the early Church of Jesus Christ and it’s congregations.



THE RISE OF THE ROMAN CHRISTIAN MOVEMENT TO POLITICAL/MILITARY/ECONOMICAL PRE-EMINENCE AMONG THE CHRISTIAN MOVEMENTS

The Roman congregation was not the first or most ancient congregation but was simply one of many schisms from the earliest Christian congregation in Jerusalem. Thus, there was a time when other cities in Christendom had pre-eminence (e.g. Rome, Antioch, etc.) and a time when Rome wanted pre-eminence. Rome could not claim religious pre-eminence based on Prima-sedes, or being the oldest bishopric, nor due to apostolic origins (other cities held primacy there as well); nor upon many other characteristics. It is inside this political dilemma that one sees the origin of the claim for authority Rome never actually had. This is the reason existing texts were changed to benefit and support the roman claims to pre-eminence and New texts were created to support the emerging Roman Claims to pre-eminence.

The Roman Christian movement engaged in a Political fight for power and prominence that would not have characterized the authentic and original Christian movement. When the “rank of churches became determined by the prominence of cities as civil capitals,” it was inevitable that clashes between the rivals for prominence would take place.

One saw increasingly political characteristics imbue the elections of the Bishop of Rome that did not characterize Bishoprics in the original Christian movement. One saw a characteristic of desires and goals to the accumulation of political / military power and wealth and influence that did not characterize the Early Christian Movement.

As power accrued in the leadership of the Roman Religious movement, one saw the almost immediate tendency to abuse power for the gain of property; for the increase in membership, and for the oppression of those unwilling to confirm. One need only review the early council canons to see the decisions were corrupted in ways that the original Christian movement had never been corrupted.

The nature of the office of Bishop in the Roman Religious Movement was different of a Bishop in the original movement (though the Roman movement used the same name for the office they created). It creates the same confusion as misuse of the word καθολικος. The roman congregations' bishop and his “successors” were not given greater authority than any other Bishop of other churches of Jesus Christ. For example, James, the bishop of Jerusalem had the same authority as Lymus, the first standing bishop of Roman. Such dogmatic claims of being “the original church” were part of the roman struggle to gain pre-eminence and credibility for their theology and political position.


ORIGINALLY, BISHOPS WERE LOCAL OFFICES

Bishops, in the earliest authentic Christianity were standing bishops and were associated with watching over a single congregation. They were, as the Catholic historian Duchesne said, part of “the local ecclesiastical organizations” that was left after the apostles died. This is why they were referred to as the bishop of the CITY they over saw :. The bishop of Jerusalem. The bishop of Antioch. The Bishop of Lyons. The Bishop of Rome. Etc. They were associated with their city. The apostles were special embassaries and missionaries who, by their nature, traveled to fulfill their callings and they were NOT associated with the overseeing of a specific city since they were overseers of the many churches.

From the earliest times, the bishops and apostles existed side by side as contemporaries; still, we never hear of bishops traveling with apostles for the specific purpose of being “trained” to become one of the 12 apostles. In fact, very early orders penalize a bishop for leaving his city. A bishop could not travel for long, and an apostle, as an emissary, had to travel. (127 canons of the apostles 2.12, in Francois Nau and Rene Graffin, eds., Patrologia Orientalis – Paris : Libraire de Paris, Firmin-Didot, 1903-), 8:668-9)

Thus the didache speaks of how to treat a traveling apostle and prophet who visited the congregation and the P.Orientalis specified punishment for a bishop who traveled away from his congregation for any length of time. Since the seventy also had a similar role to the apostles, they were commonly regarded as taking over in place of the apostles. This is why Hippolytus lists the names of “the seventy apostles.” (Hippolytus, De LXX Apostolis in PG 10:953-58);

POST TWO OF THREE FOLLOWS
 
Last edited:

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
POST TWO OF THREE


ORIGINALLY BISHOPS WERE NOT THE SAME AS APOSTLES

When the dogmatists were supplanted by historians who viewed the problem of the organization of the early church, it became apparent, says Linton, “that the episcopate is not a continuation of the apostolate,” (Lake, “Christian Life in Rome”, 38). Once this became clear, historians set about to determine and better define the ancient church organization. Lake observed : “it is not less clear that the functions of an apostle were quite different from those of a presbyter or bishop and that functionally the apostle is akin to the prophet, not to the presbyter.” (p 38, Lake, “Christian life in Rome,” 38-39). Apostles and Prophets were itinerant to a great degree whereas Bishops and Presbyters were associated with a standing office.

If one will keep the authentic early context in mind, then it makes perfect sense why Peter would tell Clement (the third bishop of the roman congregation), that, “At the present time,” ( says Peter in the Clementine Recognitions) “do not look for any other prophet or apostle except us. There is one true prophet and twelve apostles.” ( PG 1:1330)

Just like Ignatius (the Bishop of Antioch) indicated in his letters, Polycarp, (the bishop of Smyrna) also, when writing to the churches, confessed that he is no wise to be considered on par with the apostles : For neither I, nor any other such one, can come up to the wisdom of the blessed and glorious Paul. He, when among you, accurately and steadfastly taught the word of truth in the absence of those who were then alive. And when absent from you, he wrote you a letter….which will build you up in that faith which has been given you.” (Epistola ad Philippenses 3.2, in PG 5:1008);

During the confusion after the apostles died when multiple bishops are trying to gain authority and some are being shuffled out of their positions by congregations, one sees various pleadings for individuals to honor the present episcopal authority. In doing this, they do not claim any apostolic authority. For example, in his pleading Clement, (the Bishop of Rome) also fails to mention any office of his own; fails to give any direct orders (he is even more apologetic than Ignatius…), nor does he appeal to apostolicity in the office of a bishop, which would have made his case open and shut. Instead, he merely ventures as an opinion…that there is nothing in the scriptures which says evil men should depose good, and so there is no reason for deposing a good bishop.

He mentions no apostolic tenure, nor does he mention the later claim of the Roman Religious Movement that he is a true successor and has apostolic authority. In mentioning authority Clement writes: “Christ came from God”, “and the apostles from Christ.” (Clement, epistola primera ad Corinthios 42.2 in PG 1:292.) but the early bishops did NOT claim the next step by saying and the bishops from the apostles”.

None of the early apostolic fathers / bishops make the claim that the roman bishops of later centuries were to make; that they had some sort of “apostolic level of authority”.




3) THE ROMAN RELIGIOUS MOVEMENT OF LATER YEARS EVOLVED INTO A DIFFERENT ORGANISATION WITH DIFFERENT GOALS THAN THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST


Firstly, the Original εκκλνσια DID have apostolic authority, whereas the later Roman Christian Movement’s organization never, historically, gained the apostolic authority it claimed.

Secondly
, the church Ignatius was referring to, that is, the Original Assembly/εκκλνσια/Church of Jesus Christ was quite a different organization than the Roman Christian movement’s organization.

Thirdly, the base Characteristics of the Original εκκηεσια, had different goals in many ways; and the goals and methods of accomplishing those goals were substantially different. The Original church’s administration was different than the administration of the Roman Christian Movements administration in many fundamental ways. The Original εκκληεσια’s doctrines originating from apostles and prophets were different than the later man-made doctrines of the Roman Religious movements Theologian-derived theological doctrines. there are other issues, but I think these points are the main ones.


Perhaps I can give an initial overview on these points and then return later with more information in order to try to substantiate my claim that the use of the word καθολικος by Ignatius in approx. 100 a.d. was not used in specific reference to the Roman Religious movement which became the Roman Catholic Church in later centuries.

The εκκλησια/Assembly of the original Christian Movement established at the time of Jesus’ ministry was not the same organized εκκλησια that came out of the Roman Movement in say, the 4th century (or whenever this organization became recognizable as a specific “church” having its basic mature characteristics).




A) The Apostle Peter was never, historically, a standing Bishop of the Roman Congregation

Historians have known for many, many years, that historically, the Apostle Peter never served as a standing bishop to the congregation in Rome, nor did he give apostolic power to any subsequent bishop of the Roman Congregation
.

Eusebius, and several other historical texts, indicate that Linus, NOT peter, was the first Bishop to the Roman congregation, then Anacletus, third Clemens, fourth Evaristus. Even the concept that Peter would give the keys over the kingdom to a relatively unknown man Linus, is unusual and the claim was made necessary by political motives rather than authentic religious precedence. The claim that Peter was the “first Bishop of Rome” who somehow transferred the keys given him by Christ to a relatively unknown and obscure man (Linus) was never claimed in the earliest periods, but instead was a “back claim” made in later years.

Historically, Linus never announces that he has been given this fantastic power from Peter. There are no period appropriate records indicating this happened. No one at the time tells anyone. No one hears about it nor understands that it happened no one writes about it. No extant Christian diary mentions this authority. No early Christian psalm celebrates this authority. No early Christian commentary teaches this authority was given. No apostolic father knows anything about such authority being given. All textual descriptions are made in the next century as "back claims".


B) THE ROMAN CHRISTIAN MOVEMENT LACKED THE SAME PRIESTHOOD AUTHORITY IT CLAIMED OTHER CHRISTIAN MOVMENTS LACKED.

Since Historically, Peter never was a standing Bishop of Rome and never, historically, gave his keys and apostolic level authority to a Roman Bishop, the Roman Christian Movement was in the same situation as all other Christian congregations after the death of authentic Apostles and Prophets. The administrative authority given the leaders of the Catholic Movement was not “καθολικ” or “universal” in any sense as was the administrative religious authority in the authentic and original Christian Religious Movement.


C) THE ROMAN CHRISTIAN RELIGIOUS MOVEMENT WAS NOT THE SAME AS THE EARLIEST CHRISTIAN MOVEMENT IN MANY WAYS

The historical misconception that the Roman Catholics church taught the earliest Judeo-Roman traditions and doctrines breaks down among historians :

The Roman Christian movement changed many of the earliest traditions it had acquired from the Original Christian Movement.

The Roman Christian movement adopted some traditions that were entirely new and NOT original to early Judeo-Christianity

The Original Christian Movement held traditions which the later Roman Christian movement rejected and subsequently, no longer taught at all and thus are “lost” in detail and substance to later evolutions of the Roman Christian Movement.

Ecclesiastical leadership was different in type and character in the Roman Christian Movement when compared to the Original Christian movement.

The source of doctrines and their development in the Roman Christian Movement was different than that of the Original Christian Movement.

The Roman Christian Movement developed their own distinct manner of ecclesiastical administration using the same names of offices as the early Christian Movement Used. Though the names were the same, the offices and administrative characteristics were not the same.




4) THE RISE OF THE ROMAN CHRISTIAN MOVEMENT TO POLITICAL/MILITARY/ECONOMICAL PRE-EMINENCE AMONG THE CHRISTIAN MOVEMENTS

The Roman congregation was not the first or most ancient congregation but was simply one of many schisms from the earliest Christian congregation in Jerusalem. Thus, there was a time when other cities in Christendom had pre-eminence (e.g. Rome, Antioch, etc.) and a time when Rome wanted pre-eminence. Rome could not claim religious pre-eminence based on Prima-sedes, or being the oldest bishopric, nor due to apostolic origins (other cities held primacy there as well); nor upon many other characteristics. It is inside this political dilemma that one sees the origin of the claim for authority Rome never actually had. This is the reason existing texts were changed to benefit and support the roman claims to pre-eminence and New texts were created to support the emerging Roman Claims to pre-eminence.

The Roman Christian movement engaged in a Political fight for power and prominence that would not have characterized the authentic and original Christian movementWhen the “rank of churches became determined by the prominence of cities as civil capitals,” it was inevitable that clashes between the rivals for prominence would take place.

One saw increasingly political characteristics imbue the elections of the Bishop of Rome that did not characterize Bishoprics in the original Christian movement. One saw a characteristic of desires and goals to the accumulation of political / military power and wealth and influence that did not characterize the Early Christian Movement.

As power accrued in the leadership of the Roman Religious movement, one saw the almost immediate tendency to abuse power for the gain of property; for the increase in membership, and for the oppression of those unwilling to confirm. One need only review the early council canons to see the decisions were corrupted in ways that the original Christian movement had never been corrupted.

The nature of the office of Bishop in the Roman Religious Movement was different of a Bishop in the original movement (though the Roman movement used the same name for the office they created). It creates the same confusion as misuse of the word καθολικος.

I believe that there are reasons for the Roman Christian Movements' wonderful rise to pre-eminence that also demonstrate the difference between the Roman movement and the original Christian Movement. For examples:

The Romans were “Politically fortunate” since their religious movements spread was augmented by “politics of the age” in a manner that the original church could not; would not have been able to take advantage of. The Roman Christian movement was spread by active and aggressive missionary activities which, I think was similar to the original movement in many ways, but was contaminated by politico-economic considerations that did not contaminate the original Christian movement to the same degree. The Roman Christian Movement engaged in the Limitation and suppression of competing Christian messages in a manner characteristically different than the original Christian movement would have done (for example: Inquisitions, etc.).

POST THREE OF THREE FOLLOWS
 
Last edited:

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
POST THREE


5) THE ALMOST IMMEDIATE TENDENCY TO ABUSE POWER FOR THE GAIN OF PROPERTY, FOR THE INCREASE IN MEMBERSHIP AND THE OPRESSION OF THOSE UNWILLING TO CONFORM

Among the clergy, the bishop had all priority, and any cleric who opposes a bishop in anything must be deposed with all his followers, as having attempted to seize power: he is a rebel. All the laymen who follow him must be excommunicated.” (127 canons of the Apostles 2.22, in PO 8:673)

Almost immediately, they shielded themselves from normal laws by use of their power and position.Bishops are to be judged by God,” not by men. They are above all human law.” (Pius I, Epistola 1.2, in PG 5:1121. “Laymen are not to be heard if they bring charges [against bishops]….No bishop may be refuted or accused of anything by the people or by vulgar persons.” “anyone who says a word against [a bishop], the eyese of the Lord, is guilty of the crime of lesemajeste…Those who accuse bishops are slain not by human but by divine agency.” “There is no worse crime than to bring a charge against a priest. The priest may be guilty, but even so, he must be left entirely to the judgment of God. For if all crimes are to be punished in this world, there will be nothing left for the exercise of divine judgment!” Such religious rules rendered the higher orders of priesthood immune to the normal responsibilities and retribution for evil acts.

Anyone who kills his wife,” a letter of Pius I avers,and does so entirely without reason must do public penance; but if he is disobedient toward a bishop, let him be anathemized.” (Pius I, Etis, in PG 5:1127)

Such aspirations of individual bishops for power and riches and authority is clearly seen through the rules coming out of synods they held. To decrease inter-bishopric antagonism, in 314 the council of Arles passed a rule that no bishop should annoy another bishop

Council of Nicaea, 325 :
Canon 15 Because of great disorder and rioting it will be necessary to abolish the old custom of allowing a bishop, priest, or deacon to move from one city to another. If any presumes to do this , he shall be sent back to the city in which he was ordained.

Canon 16 Priests, deacons, or others living under the canon who frivolously and irresponsibly leave their churches will be forced to return to them by all possible means. If they refuse to return they shall be deposed. If anyone steals a cleric against a bishop’s will and ordained him to serve in his own church, the ordination shall be void.”


Council of Encaeniss (Antioch), a.d. 341
Canon 3 A priests or deacon who moved permanently to another place and ignores his bishop’s appeal to return must lose the right to all office; if he goes to work for another bishop he must be punished to the bargain for breaking church law.

Canon 9 Bishops in every province must understand that the bishop in the metropolis has charge of the whole province because all who have business to transact come from all directions to the metropolis.

Canon 11 Any bishop, priests, or any churchman at all who dares to go to the emperor without a letter from his metropolitan shall be ejected utterly, not only from his church, but from his priesthood

Canon 16 When a bishop seizes a vacant seat without the okay of a full synod, he must be deposed, even though the people have elected him.

Canon 18 A bishop who cannot take over a church because the congregation will not have him must remain in honor and office but may not meddle in the affairs of the church where he is forces to remain.


Sardika a.d. 347
Canon 1 No bishop ever moves from a larger to a smaller city but only in the other direction (the size of the city increasingly become the measure of ambition and domination).

Canon 2 If it can be proven that a man has bribed parties to stir up a clamor for him as bishop “so to make it seem that the people are actually asking him to be their bishop,” he shall be excommunicated. (the reason such a rule had to be established should be obvious)


Epaon, a.d. 517
Canon 3 If the king acts against us, all bishops will withdraw to monasteries, and no bishop shall stir out again until the king has given peace to each and all bishops alike.

Canon 20 No layman may arrest, question, or punish a cleric without okay of the church. When a cleric appears in court, it must be with okay of his bishop, and no sentence may be passed without the presence of his spiritual superior.

Canon 32 Descendants of church slaves who have found their way back to the original place of their ancestors must be brought back to the church slavery, no matter how long or for how many generations they have been free. (Increasingly, the canons will favor the accumulation of money, property and individual lives)


Paris, a.d. 557
Canon 1 No one may hold that church property changes political denominations : no one can claim that church property ever passes under another ruler “since the dominion of God knows no geographical bounderies.” No one may claim that he holds as a gift from the king property that once belonged to the church. All property given by King Chlodwig of blessed memory and handed down as an inheritance must now be given back to the church.


Macon. A.d. 585
Canon 15 Whenever a layman meets a higher cleric, he must bow to him. If both are mounted, the layman must remove his hat. If the layman alone is mounted, he must dismount to greet the cleric.


Toledo, a.d. 589
Canon 20 Many bishops burden their clerics with intolerable compulsory services and contributions. Clerics thus cruelly oppressed may complain to the metropolitan.


Nabonne, a.d. 589
Canon 13 Subdeacons must hold curtains and doors open for superior clergy. If they refuse to do so they must pay a fine; lower clergy who refuse must be beaten.


Reims, a.d. 624-625
Canon 13 No one, not even a bishop, may ever sell the property or slaves of the church.(such a rule would mean that the church can only continue to gain property and financial value but it can never decrease it’s holdings.)


Toledo, a.d. 633
Canon 67 Bishops may not free slaves of the church unless they reimburse the church out of their private fortunes, and the bishop’s successors can reclaim any thus freed.

Canon 68 A bishop who frees a slave of the church without reserving the patrocinium [financial holdings] for the church must give the church two slaves in his place. If the person freed makes any complaint about the way he was treated while he was a slave, he must again become a church slave


Toledo a.d. 638
Canon 3 Thank God for the edict of King Chintila banishing all Jews from Spain, with the order that “only Catholics may live in the land…Resolved that any future king before mounting the throne should swear an oath not to tolerate the Jewish Unglauben [unbelief]…If he breaks this oath, let him be anathema and maranatha [excommunicated] before God and food for the eternal fire.”


Toledo a.d. 656
Canon 6 Children over ten years of age may dedicate themselves to the religious life without consenting their parents. When smaller children are tonsured or given the religious garment, unless their parents lodge immediate protest, they are bound to the religious discipline for life.


Emerita a.d. 666
Canon 15 It often happens that priests who fall sick blame church slaves for their condition and torture them out of revenge. This must cease.

Canon 16 Bishops must stop taking more than their third. They must not take from the church’s third for their private use.


Toledo a.d. 694
Canon 8 Jews must be denied all religious practice. Their children must be taken from them at seven years ande must marry Christians. P 130


Boniface a.d. 745
Statute 13 Pasquil [jokes about the authorities] must be severely punished, even with exile.


Paderborn a.d. 785
Canon 21 anyone engaging in pagan rites must pay a heavy fine. If he cannot pay, no matter what his station, he becomes a slave of the church until he has paid up.

Canon 23 Soothsayers and fortune-tellers shall be given to churches and priests as slaves.


Lateran IV, a.d. 1215
Canon 3 All condemned heretics must be turned over to the secular authorities for punishment…Their property must be confiscated by the church. Those who have not been able to clear themselves of charges of heresy are excommunicated and must be avoided by all. If they remain a year under the ban, they must be condemned as hereticks. All civic officers must take a public oath to defend the faith and expel from their territories all heretics. Whoever, when ordered to do so by the church, does not purify his district or domain of heretics will be put under the ban. If he does not give satisfaction within a year, he must be reported to the pope, who will absolve his vassals from all duty to him and declare his lands open to legitimate conquest by Catholics : those who participate in the attack will receive the same privileges as regular crusaders. …. Anyone who preaches without the authorization of a bishop is excommunicated…A bishop must inspect his diocese. His officers are authorized to have all inhabitants swear an oath to expose to the bishop all sectarians that can be discovered…anyone who refuses to take the oath automatically makes himself a traitor. ….


The goal of oppression, and gain of riches and control becomes clear as one reviews such canons. I believe that such policies would, over a period of several hundred years, bring to the roman religious movement, the very things such rules and actions were designed to bring to them. As the clergy asserted greater and greater control of government, private life, and family life, the accumulation of power and resources would have happened at an increasing rate.

I believe that there were geopolitical reasons why, historically, the early Roman Christian Religious Movement became increasingly powerful and more influential and assumed greater numbers until the age when such overt policies could not survive in an increasingly educated world where individual freedoms increase to the point that only covert policies can remain active (at least in the more "modern" nations).

However, my point is, that this organization that developed their own type of Bishops; their own type of ecclesiastical line of authority; their own methods of reaching prominence and pre-imminence and power; influence and riches, was NOT the organization Ignatius was referring to in 100 a.d. when he used the adjective καθολικος (“Catholic”).

In any case, I hope your spiritual journey and historical insights are wonderful in this life.

Clear
σεφυδρνεω

END OF THREE POSTS
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
POST ONE OF THREE

Hi @Dog
Can we examine your claims in greater depth and "one at a time"
First, your attempt to use the adjective καθολικος (eng “Catholic”) used by Ignatius as a noun that described your Christian movement of a later age.
Dogknox said : “Ignatius wrote this in A.D. 110 “When the bishop is present, there let the congregation gather, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church” (post #374)
1) IGNATIUS USE OF “CATHOLICOS” WAS NOT REFERRING TO THE ROMAN RELIGIOUS MOVEMENT

At this early period, (within perhaps just 50 years or so of the death of the last apostle), the Roman Catholic Church as a pre-eminent, immensely rich, political, financial and religious institution did not yet exist. The congregation of Christians in Rome, in its early stages, was simply a single congregation among many.
Dogknox said : “Clear did you see it? just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. 110 A.D. Did you see the Catholic Church has bishops!” (post #374)

2) THE LATER ROMAN CHRISTIAN RELIGIOUS MOVEMENT CHANGED THE NATURE OF THE OFFICE OF BISHOP.
Yes, the Catholic Church created an office called a “bishop”, but their bishops were not the same office that existed at the head of the original congregations.
For example, the Bishops of the later roman religious movement did not have authority of the early Bishops that were ordained and put in place by the Apostles.
The politicalization of the office of Bishop lead to an organization that sought power and riches instead of the pure religion that existed in the early Church of Jesus Christ and it’s congregations.

THE RISE OF THE ROMAN CHRISTIAN MOVEMENT TO POLITICAL/MILITARY/ECONOMICAL PRE-EMINENCE AMONG THE CHRISTIAN MOVEMENTS

The Roman congregation was not the first or most ancient congregation but was simply one of many schisms from the earliest Christian congregation in Jerusalem. Thus, there was a time when other cities in Christendom had pre-eminence (e.g. Rome, Antioch, etc.) and a time when Rome wanted pre-eminence. Rome could not claim religious pre-eminence based on Prima-sedes, or being the oldest bishopric, nor due to apostolic origins (other cities held primacy there as well); nor upon many other characteristics.

The Roman Christian movement engaged in a Political fight for power and prominence that would not have characterized the authentic and original Christian movement. When the “rank of churches became determined by the prominence of cities as civil capitals,” it was inevitable that clashes between the rivals for prominence would take place.

POST TWO OF THREE FOLLOWS

Clear Your words... First, your attempt to use the adjective καθολικος (eng “Catholic”) used by Ignatius as a noun that described your Christian movement of a later age.
My reply: “Roman Catholic” was introduced by Protestants who highly resented any monopoly of the term Catholic. Until there were Protestants the term "Roman Catholic" was unheard of! The One Holy "CATHOLIC" Apostolic Church Jesus established on ROCK was always just called "Catholic Church" until AFTER Martin Luther!
Ignatius used the word "Catholic" to describe the Church Jesus founded in such a way as to imply the word "CATHOLIC" was well understood to mean The Church established by Jesus! Ignatius did NOT name the Church Catholic it was in use before him!
Clear You said.. The Church changed over the years! The congregation of Christians in Rome, in its early stages, was simply a single congregation among many.
I reply: YES The Holy Church grew in wealth and understanding... Your accusation; today the Church is different is true YES.. She Grew in wealth and power! The Church founded by God is alive she is an entity, the Bride of Christ has been growing for 2000 years! Constantine made the Catholic Church established by Jesus the Church of the state then the Church could openly worship and grow!

Clear Your words... the Catholic Church created an office called a “bishop”, but their bishops were not the same office that existed at the head of the original congregations.
I reply: You are WRONG the bible uses the word Bishop KJV Acts 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. The word "BISHOP" means elder or overseer!
Timothy is a BISHOP Paul writes to Timothy on how to conduct his office... Bishops make doctrine they preach and teach! The preaching of the Bishop saves!
1 Timothy 4:16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

1 Timothy 4:13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching.

Bishops have authority to command men!
Timothy 1:3 Timothy Charged to Oppose False Teachers
As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer

1 Timothy 4:11 Command and teach these things.
The office of Bishop is biblical they have AUTHORITY of an Apostle as Peter replaced Judas with another Bishop! Acts 1:20
Clear
You said... The Roman congregation was not the first or most ancient congregation but was simply one of many schisms from the earliest Christian congregation in Jerusalem.
I reply: So you say.. BUT....
Clear
but you lack the proof all you have is accusation! Post the proof "one of many schisms from the earliest Christian congregation"!

The FACT IS... The Church Jesus established had Bishops with authority to teach and command men!
The FACT IS... The Church had Bishops that Saved by Preaching! There were NO NT scriptures.
The FACT IS... The Church Jesus established Baptized to make God' children.. Baptism saves!
The FACT IS....The Church Jesus established Baptized infants!
The FACT IS....The Church Jesus established Removed sins by Confession to a Bishop or Priest!
The FACT IS....The Church Jesus established Had a Sheppard that represented Jesus on earth until his return!
The FACT IS.... Peter the First Pope/Shepherd was given Keys to heaven by Jesus In Person! Keys are a symbol of Authority!
The FACT IS.... Mary has Always be honored as Blessed! For two Thousand years the Bride of Christ has honored our mother Mary!
The FACT IS... The Holy Catholic Church preached Jesus and taught Salvation to the world for the first seventeen hundred years! There were No Bibles, Salvation was PREACHED by the Catholic Church!
The FACT IS.... The Church Jesus established ate the flesh of Jesus in the form of bread! Drank the blood of Jesus in the form of wine!
The FACT IS... All other churches are made by men; All claiming to have the ONLY Truth but not even two of the thousands believe the same things!
The FACT IS.... The One Holy Apostolic Church established by God was named CATHOLIC from the start and the name stuck! Protestants seventeen hundred years after Jesus added the word "Roman"!
The FACT IS... Bishops have an unbroken Linage back to the Apostles... Thus ONLY the Catholic Church is Apostolic! The Pope can trace his linage back 265 Popes to Peter in an unbroken chain!
The FACT IS.... To be Protestant (In Protest against Jesus' bride his Holy Catholic Church) you must reject the scriptures as a lie from God!
The FACT IS.... The Holy Catholic Church made the bible it did not fall out of the sky! With the help of the Holy Spirit the Holy Catholic Church decided the truly inspired works from the many uninspired letters! Then she the Catholic Church in 400 A.D. took all the inspired letters placed them into One Book she named "The Bible"!
The FACT IS.... If you trust the bible to be truly Inspired words of God then you MUST trust the Catholic Church got it right!
The FACT IS..... The Holy Spirit helped the One Holy Church in picking the inspired letters from the phony ones LOGIC alone says: "The Holy Spirit is still around helping her interpret the same scriptures!"
Clear toss your bible out your stinking bathroom window if you reject the Authority of the Catholic Church! How can you be sure your bible is inspired words of God if you reject the Catholic Church!?
The FACT IS.... "The Catholic Church came before the Bible!"
The FACT IS.... When Constantine made the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church the "Church of the state" over 100 Catholic Bishops showed up for his Council! The Church was around long before Constantine!
  1. St. Peter (32-67)
  2. St. Linus (67-76)
  3. St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
  4. St. Clement I (88-97)
  5. St. Evaristus (97-105)
  6. St. Alexander I (105-115)
  7. St. Sixtus I (115-125) Also called Xystus I
  8. St. Telesphorus (125-136)
  9. St. Hyginus (136-140)
  10. St. Pius I (140-155)
  11. St. Anicetus (155-166)
  12. St. Soter (166-175)
  13. St. Eleutherius (175-189)
  14. St. Victor I (189-199)
  15. St. Zephyrinus (199-217)
  16. St. Callistus I (217-22) Callistus and the following three popes were opposed by St. Hippolytus, antipope (217-236)
  17. St. Urban I (222-30)
  18. St. Pontian (230-35)
  19. St. Anterus (235-36)
  20. St. Fabian (236-50)
  21. St. Cornelius (251-53) Opposed by Novatian, antipope (251)
  22. St. Lucius I (253-54)
  23. St. Stephen I (254-257) ETC.... 265 popes from Peter to Francis today in an unbroken chain! Pope France has Linage back 2000 years to Peter the Key Holder the first Shepherd! ...... Clear you have many UNPROVEN accusations about the ONLY Church Jesus established!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top