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Evidence For And Against Evolution

gnostic

The Lost One
The point that I made is that you can answer" NO" to all the questions and still and still rationally accept a claim or a proposition.

I provided free will as an example you accept that we have free will even though you can't see, test, measure etc. Free will...... So the point is that you can accept a proposition and rational in doing so, even if you answer NO to those questions

No, leroy. You are still being irrational with your claims.

Let go back to your original reply:

Well take for example free will (the claim that atleast sometimes you can choose from. More than 1 alternative)

Can you see free will? Can you measure free will? Can you quantify free will?.... Well no, so by your logic one should reject the claim that we have free will.

So do you reject free will?

How would you quantify or measure free will?

You cannot, so your questions are just absurd. Of course, I cannot measure or quantify free will, because you are asking irrational questions.

Really, leroy. Why would anyone want to quantify or measure free will in the first place?

How does validate your belief in the existence in god? You don't.
 

McBell

Unbound
Because one can dismiss any claim using that type of circular logic.

For example by that logic, you can't say that something like a rock is billions of years old, unless you prove a priory that the earth is billions of years old. So any argument for an old earth can be dismissed by that circular logic.
Terms you have not properly used in the above quoted post:
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
No, leroy. You are still being irrational with your claims.

Let go back to your original reply:



How would you quantify or measure free will?

You cannot, so your questions are just absurd. Of course, I cannot measure or quantify free will, because you are asking irrational questions.

Really, leroy. Why would anyone want to quantify or measure free will in the first place?

How does validate your belief in the existence in god? You don't.

I am not trying to validate God with my free will example, I am trying to invalidate your fallacious logic

Correct me if I am wrong
1 you accept that we have free will

2 you accept that it is rational to assume that we have free will

3 you can't meassure, test, observe etc free will (you would answer NO to those questions)


4 Therefore atleast sometimes one can rationally accept a claim or a proposition even if you can't test it, meassure it, observe it etc.


Please let me know if you disagree with any of these 4 points...


Obviously none of these proves that God exists, it simply proves that your logic is fallacious
 

McBell

Unbound
To be fair he meant "a priori". But he got that claim wrong too. The Earth was proven, at least in the legal sense, to be hundreds of millions of years old before radiometric dating. There was no assumption.
Perhaps he meant that God created that particular rock 6000 years ago when he created Adam?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Wow, you have just how irrational you are.

What I had asserted and asked in my reply, is a valid position.

There was absolutely nothing circular about my post.

God cannot be observed by everyone, cannot be tested by everyone, cannot be measured by everyone...then there is no evidence for God. And if there is no evidence for God, then accepting in spite of lack of evidence, is nothing more than faith-based belief.

What you don't seem to understand that you'd need evidence for the CAUSE as much as you'd need evidence for the EFFECT.

Without evidence for the CAUSE existing, then you cannot verify the CAUSE was responsible for the EFFECT.

That's logical. And it is simple as logic goes.

Only creationists would have problem with this simple logic, because they know they don't have evidence for God.

Well just correct me if I am wrong.

It seems to me that you are saying that one can't say that God is the cause of "X" unless I prove a priori that God excist.


The problem is that you can dismiss any argument for the existance of God using that logic.... even an unambiguous miracle or a direct observation of God could be dismissed using this logic


But obviously one can also dismiss any other claim (like evolution or an old earth) using that logic,
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Well just correct me if I am wrong.

It seems to me that you are saying that one can't say that God is the cause of "X" unless I prove a priori that God excist.


The problem is that you can dismiss any argument for the existance of God using that logic.... even an unambiguous miracle or a direct observation of God could be dismissed using this logic


But obviously one can also dismiss any other claim (like evolution or an old earth) using that logic,
No, he is pointing out that you do not, like so many creationists, understand the nature of evidence.
 

McBell

Unbound
It seems to me that you are saying that one can't say that God is the cause of "X" unless I prove a priori that God excist.
Correct.


The problem is that you can dismiss any argument for the existance of God using that logic.... even an unambiguous miracle or a direct observation of God could be dismissed using this logic
ONLY if all the arguments for gods existence reply upon god doing something...

But obviously one can also dismiss any other claim (like evolution or an old earth) using that logic,
Nope.
Because no one (other than perhaps creationists) is claiming that evolution is doing something.


edit note:
corrected typos
 
Last edited by a moderator:

leroy

Well-Known Member
Correct.



ONLY if all the arguments for gods existence reply upon god doing something...
[QUOTE

Any
Correct.



ONLY if all the arguments for gods existence reply upon god doing something...


Nope.
Because no one (other than perhaps creationists) is claiming that evolution is doing something.


edit note:
corrected typos

Any argument for the existance of anything would really upon the assumption that it is doing something.


Why don't we put @gnostic logic in to the test?

Prove to me that dinosaurs (say the T Rex) existed, but I will use that fallacious logic to dismiss any evidence that you might provide
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Well just correct me if I am wrong.

It seems to me that you are saying that one can't say that God is the cause of "X" unless I prove a priori that God excist.

You are wrong.

If you read and understood my posts, I keep using the word - EVIDENCE - repeatedly.

And it becoming very apparent to me that you don't understand this word.

And if you have noticed my reply, I wasn't asking to prove anything via "a priori"...which is becoming apparent to me, is another word, you don't understand.

I seriously think you should look up the word, a priori, because you don't understand what it mean, and you are misapplying the word.

But to give you a gist, a priori means attaining knowledge through reasoning alone, without experience, hence justification WITHOUT empirical evidence.

That's not what I am asking you at all.

I am asking if you can provide evidence to justify your reasoning. So, the word you really looking for, is a posteriori, not a priori.

Look them up, leroy: a priori and a posteriori. You are using the wrong word with what I am asking for.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
His faulty math in using probability to justify his anti evolution agenda.

Misuse of probability by “creation scientists” « Math Drudge
Misuse of probability by “creation scientists”

By David H Bailey, on August 13th, 2009

It often comes as a shock to professional scientists to learn that a large fraction of the public rejects much if not all of the evolutionary framework of modern geology and biology. For example, in a recent poll, 44% of Americans surveyed agreed that God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years [Gallup]. Another indication of the popularity of this worldview, often termed “young-earth creationism”, is the fact that over 700,000 Americans have attended the “Creation Museum” near Cincinnati, Ohio since its opening in 1977. Displays at the museum insist the world was created in the past 10,000 years, and depict, for instance, dinosaurs co-existing with prehistoric humans.

A related development is the recent emergence of the “intelligent design” (ID) movement, which generally acknowledges the old-earth framework, but still insists that evolution can only produce minor changes within established “kinds” (species), which “kinds” were individually created by an intelligent Designer. Both movements have a dedicated cadre of writers, including at least some with respectable academic credentials, who generate books, articles and Internet posts criticizing conventional scientific research and asserting that scientific evidence confirms their point of view.

Both traditional creationists and ID scholars have invoked probability theory in criticisms of evolution. One typical argument goes like this: the human alpha globin molecule, which plays a key oxygen transfer function, is a protein chain based on a sequence of 141 amino acids. There are 20 different amino acids common in living systems, so the number of potential chains of length 141 is 20^(141), which is roughly 10^(183). This figure is so enormous, so these writers argue, that even after billions of years of random molecular trials, no alpha globin protein molecule would ever appear [Foster, pg. 79-83; Hoyle, pg. 1-20; Lennox, pg. 163-173].

But the above argument fails to note that most of the 141 amino acids can be changed without altering the key oxygen transfer function. When we revise the calculation above, based on only 25 locations essential for the oxygen transport function, we obtain 10^(33) fundamentally different chains, a huge figure but vastly smaller than 10^(183), and small enough to neutralize the probability-based argument against evolution [Bailey].

More importantly, this and almost all similar probability-based arguments against evolution suffer from the fallacy of presuming that biological structures such as alpha globin arise by a single all-or-nothing random trial. Instead, available evidence suggests that alpha globin and other proteins arose as the end product of a long sequence of intermediate steps, each of which was biologically useful in an earlier context. Probability calculations such as the above, which do not take into account the process by which the structure came to be, are not meaningful and can easily mislead [Musgrave].

Along this line, consider snowflakes. Bentley and Humphrey’s book Snow Crystals [Bentley] includes over 2000 high-resolution black-and-white photos of real snowflakes, each with intricate yet highly regular patterns (a few of the Bentley-Humphrey photos are posted at Online article). The chances that one particular structure, with striking near-perfect 6-way symmetry, can form “at random” can be calculated as roughly one part in 10^(2500). Does this astoundingly small probability figure constitute proof that individual snowflakes have been intelligently designed? Obviously not. The fallacy, once again, is presuming a sudden, all-at-once random formation. Instead, snowflakes, like biological organisms, are formed as the product of a series of steps, acting under natural laws with some element of chance.

ID scholar William Dembski invokes probability and information theory (the mathematical theory of information content in data) in arguments against Darwinism. But knowledgeable scholars who have examined Dembski’s works are not persuaded and have been sharply critical. Mathematician Jeffrey Shallit (a colleague of the present bloggers) and biologist Wesley Elsberry conclude that Dembski’s notion of “complex specified information” is incoherent and unworkable [Shallit]. Biologist Gert Korthof, in a review of Dembski’s book Intelligent Design, concludes that Dembski’s analysis cannot be meaningfully applied to DNA [Korthof]. Mathematician Richard Wein, in a review of Dembski’s book No Free Lunch, characterizes it as “pseudoscientific rhetoric” [Wein].

One central issue in this debate is the question of evolutionary novelty. The consensus of modern scientific research is that mutation and natural selection together can produce novel, beneficial features in biological systems. Scientists further postulate that this low-level novelty extends to entire populations, which can, over time (typically thousands of years), become entirely separate species. On the other hand, creationist and ID scholars have insisted that whereas minor changes may occur within an established kind, nothing fundamentally new can come through “random” evolution. For example, Dembski asserts that there is a “Law of Conservation of Information” that prohibits the generation of novel features [Dembski].

Ample and well-established experimental evidence supports the scientific view. For example, in a 1974 paper by biologists Barry Hall and Daniel Hartl, a gene was identified in the bacterium E. coli that is responsible for metabolizing lactose, using a complicated three-part process. They removed this gene, and then permitted the bacteria to multiply in a stressed environment containing lactose. Within 24 hours the bacteria had evolved a capability to utilize lactose, by means of a similar but distinct three-part biochemical pathway, involving two mutated genes [Hall; Miller, 1999, pg. 145-147].

In another interesting result along this line, Japanese biologists recently discovered a bacterial species that has adapted to thrive on nylon waste (which did not exist until the 20th century). It turns out that this bacterial species has undergone a “frame shift” mutation, where an extra base pair has been inserted into the bacteria’s DNA. This mutation significantly changed the bacteria’s biology, since a long series of amino acids were altered, but by remarkable chance this alteration endowed the bacteria with the facility to metabolize nylon, albeit not very efficiently [Negoro].

As a third example, scientists recently discovered that certain persons in an Italian community, all descended from a single individual several generations back, possess a genetic mutation that increases “good” cholesterol and provides an effective anti-oxidant, thus resulting in measurably improved cardiovascular health [Krotz]. Dozens of other examples could be cited.

In short, the probability arguments used by the creationist and ID movements, when analyzed carefully, are fallacious, and are simply countered by the observation that natural evolution, operating in the real world, does in fact produce novel features.

It is truly unfortunate that fundamentalist adherents of some of the world’s great religious movements feel it necessary to “prove” God by means of fallacious mathematical arguments. It is also unfortunate that the creationist and ID communities have been so stubborn to accept the overwhelming consensus of modern science, namely that the world is governed by elegant and comprehensible physical laws. But the scientific and mathematical communities are also at fault in failing to better educate the public as to both the reality of evolution and the failings of creationist/ID scholarship.

Thanks, the article was very interesting, but irrelevant.

Care to show with your own correct math and premises that 5M years is enough to account for the differences between humans and chimps?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
You are wrong.

If you read and understood my posts, I keep using the word - EVIDENCE - repeatedly.

And it becoming very apparent to me that you don't understand this word.

And if you have noticed my reply, I wasn't asking to prove anything via "a priori"...which is becoming apparent to me, is another word, you don't understand.

I seriously think you should look up the word, a priori, because you don't understand what it mean, and you are misapplying the word.

But to give you a gist, a priori means attaining knowledge through reasoning alone, without experience, hence justification WITHOUT empirical evidence.

That's not what I am asking you at all.

I am asking if you can provide evidence to justify your reasoning. So, the word you really looking for, is a posteriori, not a priori.

Look them up, leroy: a priori and a posteriori. You are using the wrong word with what I am asking for.


So just for clarification.

You would not count an unabigous and clear miracle as evidence for God because there is no prior evidence for the existance of God (one would have to show that God exists before claiming that such miracle is evidence for God)

Is this a fare representation of your view? Is that your position?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Thanks, the article was very interesting, but irrelevant.

Care to show with your own correct math and premises that 5M years is enough to account for the differences between humans and chimps?

This article and others demonstrates that Batton and other creationist scientist use phony math, and you have failed to provide references that are competent in math and do not have a religious agenda. IT is up to you to provide the competent math to present an argument Batton has not.

The problem with Batton is that he is a young earth creationist, This assumption biases any further consideration of what can take place in 5 million years, and has failed to present any objective verifiable evidence, nor math that demonstrates this including his arguments concerning primate evolution.

The argument for the evolution is the abundant incremental fossil evidence of many different intermediate primate species that are predictably related over 5 million years or more. and the genetics of our related species. Part of the math evidence that Batton rejects is the radiometric dating, which he has failed to present a falsafible and predictable hypothesis alternative based on the evidence, The math does not come separate from the evidence.

This research provides a more scientific predictable hypothesis without the religious agenda.

Construction of arbitrarily strong amplifiers of natural selection using evolutionary graph theory

Construction of arbitrarily strong amplifiers of natural selection using evolutionary graph theory
Communications Biology volume 1, Article number: 71 (2018) Cite this article

Abstract
Because of the intrinsic randomness of the evolutionary process, a mutant with a fitness advantage has some chance to be selected but no certainty. Any experiment that searches for advantageous mutants will lose many of them due to random drift. It is therefore of great interest to find population structures that improve the odds of advantageous mutants. Such structures are called amplifiers of natural selection: they increase the probability that advantageous mutants are selected. Arbitrarily strong amplifiers guarantee the selection of advantageous mutants, even for very small fitness advantage. Despite intensive research over the past decade, arbitrarily strong amplifiers have remained rare. Here we show how to construct a large variety of them. Our amplifiers are so simple that they could be useful in biotechnology, when optimizing biological molecules, or as a diagnostic tool, when searching for faster dividing cells or viruses. They could also occur in natural population structures.

Introduction
In the evolutionary process, mutation generates new variants, while selection chooses between mutants that have different reproductive rates. Any new mutant is initially present at very low frequency and can easily be eliminated by random drift. The probability that the lineage of a new mutant eventually takes over the entire population is called the fixation probability. It is a key quantity of evolutionary dynamics and characterizes the rate of evolution1,2,3,4,5.

Consider a population, in which at each time step an individual is chosen for reproduction with probability proportional to fitness, and the offspring replaces another individual6. In a well-mixed population, each offspring is equally likely to replace any individual. If the new mutant has relative fitness r, then its fixation probability is (1−1/r)/(1−1/rN)" role="presentation" style="display: inline-block; line-height: normal; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: 100%; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; border: 0px; padding: 0px; margin: 0px; overflow: auto; position: relative;">(1−1/r)/(1−1/rN)(1−1/r)/(1−1/rN), where N is the population size5. For advantageous mutants, which have r>1" role="presentation" style="display: inline-block; line-height: normal; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: 100%; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; border: 0px; padding: 0px; margin: 0px; overflow: auto; position: relative;">r>1r>1, the fixation probability converges to 1 − 1/r in the limit of large population size.

Population structure can affect evolutionary and ecological dynamics7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16. In evolutionary graph theory, the structure of a population is described by a graph17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24: each individual occupies a vertex; the edges mark the neighboring sites where a reproducing individual can place an offspring. The edge weights represent the proportional preference to make such a choice. If each neighbor is chosen uniformly at random, then the outgoing edges of every vertex have identical weights. This is modeled by an unweighted graph. A self-loop represents the possibility that an offspring does not migrate but instead replaces its parent25. The classical well-mixed population is described by an unweighted, complete graph with self-loops.

In general, the fixation probability depends not only on the graph, but also on the initial placement of the invading mutants26, 27. The two most natural cases are the following. First, mutation is independent of reproduction and occurs at all locations at a constant rate per unit time. Thus, mutants arise with equal probability in each location. This is called uniform initialization. Second, mutation happens during reproduction. In this case, mutants are more likely to occur in locations that have a higher turnover. This is called temperature initialization. Our approach also allows us to study any combination of the two cases: some mutants arise spontaneously while others occur during reproduction.

' ' ' read the whole article deleted because thread size limits.

In this work we resolve several open questions regarding strong amplification under uniform and temperature initialization. First, we show that there exists a vast variety of graphs with self-loops and weighted edges that are arbitrarily strong amplifiers for both uniform and temperature initialization. Moreover, many of those strong amplifiers are structurally simple, therefore they might be realizable in natural or laboratory setting. Second, we show that both self-loops and weighted edges are key features of strong amplification. Namely, we show that without either self-loops or weighted edges, no graph is a strong amplifier under temperature initialization, and no simple graph is a strong amplifier under uniform initialization.

Results
Results overview
Our contribution comes in two parts. First, we give an explicit construction of a wide range of strong amplifiers. Second, we identify features of population structures that are necessary for amplification. See Fig. 1 for the illustration of the model and Supplementary Table 1 for the summary of our results.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
This article and others demonstrates that Batton and other creationist scientist use phony math, and you have failed to provide references that are competent in math and do not have a religious agenda. IT is up to you to provide the competent math to present an argument Batton has not.

The problem with Batton is that he is a young earth creationist, This assumption biases any further consideration of what can take place in 5 million years, and has failed to present any objective verifiable evidence, nor math that demonstrates this including his arguments concerning primate evolution.

The argument for the evolution is the abundant incremental fossil evidence of many different intermediate primate species that are predictably related over 5 million years or more. and the genetics of our related species. Part of the math evidence that Batton rejects is the radiometric dating, which he has failed to present a falsafible and predictable hypothesis alternative based on the evidence, The math does not come separate from the evidence.

This research provides a more scientific predictable hypothesis without the religious agenda.

Construction of arbitrarily strong amplifiers of natural selection using evolutionary graph theory

Construction of arbitrarily strong amplifiers of natural selection using evolutionary graph theory
Communications Biology volume 1, Article number: 71 (2018) Cite this article

Abstract
Because of the intrinsic randomness of the evolutionary process, a mutant with a fitness advantage has some chance to be selected but no certainty. Any experiment that searches for advantageous mutants will lose many of them due to random drift. It is therefore of great interest to find population structures that improve the odds of advantageous mutants. Such structures are called amplifiers of natural selection: they increase the probability that advantageous mutants are selected. Arbitrarily strong amplifiers guarantee the selection of advantageous mutants, even for very small fitness advantage. Despite intensive research over the past decade, arbitrarily strong amplifiers have remained rare. Here we show how to construct a large variety of them. Our amplifiers are so simple that they could be useful in biotechnology, when optimizing biological molecules, or as a diagnostic tool, when searching for faster dividing cells or viruses. They could also occur in natural population structures.

Introduction
In the evolutionary process, mutation generates new variants, while selection chooses between mutants that have different reproductive rates. Any new mutant is initially present at very low frequency and can easily be eliminated by random drift. The probability that the lineage of a new mutant eventually takes over the entire population is called the fixation probability. It is a key quantity of evolutionary dynamics and characterizes the rate of evolution1,2,3,4,5.

Consider a population, in which at each time step an individual is chosen for reproduction with probability proportional to fitness, and the offspring replaces another individual6. In a well-mixed population, each offspring is equally likely to replace any individual. If the new mutant has relative fitness r, then its fixation probability is (1−1/r)/(1−1/rN)" role="presentation" style="display: inline-block; line-height: normal; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: 100%; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; border: 0px; padding: 0px; margin: 0px; overflow: auto; position: relative;">(1−1/r)/(1−1/rN)(1−1/r)/(1−1/rN), where N is the population size5. For advantageous mutants, which have r>1" role="presentation" style="display: inline-block; line-height: normal; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: 100%; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; border: 0px; padding: 0px; margin: 0px; overflow: auto; position: relative;">r>1r>1, the fixation probability converges to 1 − 1/r in the limit of large population size.

Population structure can affect evolutionary and ecological dynamics7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16. In evolutionary graph theory, the structure of a population is described by a graph17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24: each individual occupies a vertex; the edges mark the neighboring sites where a reproducing individual can place an offspring. The edge weights represent the proportional preference to make such a choice. If each neighbor is chosen uniformly at random, then the outgoing edges of every vertex have identical weights. This is modeled by an unweighted graph. A self-loop represents the possibility that an offspring does not migrate but instead replaces its parent25. The classical well-mixed population is described by an unweighted, complete graph with self-loops.

In general, the fixation probability depends not only on the graph, but also on the initial placement of the invading mutants26, 27. The two most natural cases are the following. First, mutation is independent of reproduction and occurs at all locations at a constant rate per unit time. Thus, mutants arise with equal probability in each location. This is called uniform initialization. Second, mutation happens during reproduction. In this case, mutants are more likely to occur in locations that have a higher turnover. This is called temperature initialization. Our approach also allows us to study any combination of the two cases: some mutants arise spontaneously while others occur during reproduction.

' ' ' read the whole article deleted because thread size limits.

In this work we resolve several open questions regarding strong amplification under uniform and temperature initialization. First, we show that there exists a vast variety of graphs with self-loops and weighted edges that are arbitrarily strong amplifiers for both uniform and temperature initialization. Moreover, many of those strong amplifiers are structurally simple, therefore they might be realizable in natural or laboratory setting. Second, we show that both self-loops and weighted edges are key features of strong amplification. Namely, we show that without either self-loops or weighted edges, no graph is a strong amplifier under temperature initialization, and no simple graph is a strong amplifier under uniform initialization.

Results
Results overview
Our contribution comes in two parts. First, we give an explicit construction of a wide range of strong amplifiers. Second, we identify features of population structures that are necessary for amplification. See Fig. 1 for the illustration of the model and Supplementary Table 1 for the summary of our results.


Yes, yes ok let's assume thar Battons is wrong or fallacious or whatever.

Care to provide the correct math?

The argument for the evolution is the abundant incremental fossil evidence of many different intermediate primate species that are predictably related over 5 million years or more. and the genetics of our related species.

That at most proves that we share a common ancestor with chimps 5My ago. But it doesn't prove that we evolved from that ancestor by a process of random mutations and natural selection

What you have to do is to prove (using math that you would consider correct) that it is possible (and realistic) to evolve a human and a chimp in 5M years from a common ancestor using the mechanisms proposed by Darwin random variation and natural selection.

It shouldn't be hard. We know roughly the mutation rate of organisms, we know roughly the ratio of benefitial mutations, we know roughly how fast primates reproduce, we know roughly the probability and time of fixation of a benefitial mutation.

Batton made his math using the best estimates of each of these values, but supposedly and according to you he is wrong, so please share with us the correct values and the correct math

Construction of arbitrarily strong amplifiers of natural selection using evolutionary graph theory

Sure you can include realistic amplifiers in your math. Feel free to use those described in the article or any other amplifier that you would find conviniant.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Yes, yes ok let's assume thar Battons is wrong or fallacious or whatever.

Care to provide the correct math?

That at most proves that we share a common ancestor with chimps 5My ago. But it doesn't prove that we evolved from that ancestor by a process of random mutations and natural selection.

I provided the math and documented the fallacious nature of Batton's math with a religious YEC agenda. Your lack of knowledge in math and science is showing in spades..

Again . . . I provided what you asked from several perspectives to show Batton and other creationists use false math, and you have failed to respond, because you also have a religious agenda.

The article I provided had 48 citations, diagrams and the math in the article supporting the math involved in genetic mutations and evolution.
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Yes, yes ok let's assume thar Battons is wrong or fallacious or whatever.

Care to provide the correct math?



That at most proves that we share a common ancestor with chimps 5My ago. But it doesn't prove that we evolved from that ancestor by a process of random mutations and natural selection

What you have to do is to prove (using math that you would consider correct) that it is possible (and realistic) to evolve a human and a chimp in 5M years from a common ancestor using the mechanisms proposed by Darwin random variation and natural selection.

It shouldn't be hard. We know roughly the mutation rate of organisms, we know roughly the ratio of benefitial mutations, we know roughly how fast primates reproduce, we know roughly the probability and time of fixation of a benefitial mutation.

Batton made his math using the best estimates of each of these values, but supposedly and according to you he is wrong, so please share with us the correct values and the correct math



Sure you can include realistic amplifiers in your math. Feel free to use those described in the article or any other amplifier that you would find conviniant.
You missed the point. Why even ask for the correct math?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
I provided the math and documented the fallacious nature of Batton's math with a religious YEC agenda. Your lack of knowledge in math and science is showing in spades..

Again . . . I provided what you asked from several perspectives to show Batton and other creationists use false math, and you have failed to respond, because you also have a religious agenda.

The article I provided had 48 citations, diagrams and the math in the article supporting the math involved in genetic mutations and evolution.
Yes the article does have interesting math, but it doesn't have the math that you where asked to show


Show that it is realistically possible to explain the differences between chimps and humans from a common ancestor who lived 5M years ago.

The problem is that primates have very slow reproductive rates, and there is a limit on the number of mutations that they can accumulate in 5M years

Batton showed with his math that thee is not enough time to account for the differences, but if you what to claim that his math is wrong, pleas provide the correct math
 
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