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Evidence For And Against Evolution

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
So, what you are saying is that conclusions based on scientific investigation aren't always accurate and are later corrected by further research?

And...?

Are you done nit-picking the non-scientific language used in news articles?

Also, if you don't believe in evolutionary theory, what do you think this new research is based on?
Going back to the article, are you saying the following point in the article is untrue? Did researchers think for 50 years that moths evolved ears to detect the ultrasonic calls of attacking bats, and then found that is not true?
"For 50 years, researchers have thought that moths evolved ears to detect the ultrasonic calls of attacking bats—but a new study shows that ears came first." A Textbook Evolutionary Story About Moths and Bats Is Wrong
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
It's not just "so what." It is that sometimes (as the referenced article shows) conclusions based on comparing fossils or burgeoning embryos are one year (or for decades) said to be true, and later said to be untrue.
Or, they are said to be the best possible current explanation, and are then replaced by better ones.

What's the problem?

I have no quibble with the fact that the new research is said to turn about the time difference between developing ears, that's what it says, yet it was taught as true for decades, and then it is said to be no longer true.
Do you have any evidence that it was taught as being absolutely true, rather than simply the best current explanation?

Similarly, the recapitulation theory was taught as certain in textbooks, if you didn't get the answer on the test as the textbook told you, you were marked wrong. Now that theory is no longer taught as true. An interesting article regarding this teaching is linked here:
Recapitulation theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Do you have any evidence that this was "taught as certain" in textbooks? The Wiki page says no such thing. In fact, the only mention of schools is this passage:

"The theory was widely supported in the Edinburgh and London schools of higher anatomy around 1830, notably by Robert Edmond Grant, but was opposed by Karl Ernst von Baer's ideas of divergence, and attacked by Richard Owen in the 1830s."


So, there were some schools that widely supported the theory and others that opposed it...

Doesn't exactly sound like they taught it as a certainty.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Going back to the article, are you saying the following point in the article is untrue? Did researchers think for 50 years that moths evolved ears to detect the ultrasonic calls of attacking bats, and then found that is not true?
"For 50 years, researchers have thought that moths evolved ears to detect the ultrasonic calls of attacking bats—but a new study shows that ears came first." A Textbook Evolutionary Story About Moths and Bats Is Wrong
Nope.

But do you understand the difference between "x is the best current explanation which may be replaced later by new evidence leading to the a different explanation" and "x is absolutely 100% true and unquestionable and if it's wrong then we are all fools and all of our conclusions should be questioned"?

Yet again, I have to ask, if you don't accept evolution, on what basis do you assume that either the old or new conclusion is accurate?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
That wasn't my point. The point is that what has been accepted as truth is sometimes rejected later on.

And that certainly happens. As we uncover more detail, it isn't unusual that we have to modify our previous theories.

Science is an ongoing project of better and better approximations.

Especially on the borders of knowledge, we find that initial views frequently have to be changed when new data is found. Not only does this happen, it is common and a desirable part of the process of science.

Next, each new viewpoint has to explain at least as much of the data as the old viewpoint. This is actually crucial. We don't go backwards. But we are always trying to incorporate new results into our explanations, changing the explanations if required.

But what this means is that the well-established results of the previous view are going to stick around in the places where they have been well tested, at least as an approximation.

As an example, Newton's theory of gravity and his laws of motion gave incredibly good explanations for the orbits of the planets, and the way things work on Earth. His work unified our ideas about the universe and those about the Earth.

In the later part of the 17th century, it was found that the calculations done by Newtonian physics on the newly discovered planet, Uranus, didn't quite fit the observations. There were two options: one was to discard or change the theory. The other was to see if the theory still works, but we need to add another contributor: another planet, for example. Both options were discussed. And, it was found that a new planet *does* exist, exactly where Newtonian calculations predicted. It is now called Neptune.

In the 19th century, a similar thing happened. The motion of the planet Mercury quite fit the calculations. Again, a new planet was proposed. it was even named (Vulcan). But no planet was found. Instead, Einstein came along and changed the theory of gravity, modifying it to a new viewpoint. And that new viewpoint gave the correct positions of Mercury.

So, while Newtonian theory is 'wrong', it is still a very, very good approximation. In fact, it is still good enough to use for launching probes to other planets. It is also easier to use than Einstein's. So, the 'wrong' is often used in practice because it is 'good enough'.

In the advance of science, well-established aspects of theories are seldom completely discarded. They are taken as simpler models that are less accurate, but still valid to some level. New results won't negate, for example, the fact that planets orbit the sun. New results won't negate the fact that the universe is expanding.

And new results won't negate the basic facts of evolution: the biological species change over time, leading to new species. Any better approximation will give these same results simply because those results are well established in the cases where they have been tested.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Nope.

But do you understand the difference between "x is the best current explanation which may be replaced later by new evidence leading to the a different explanation" and "x is absolutely 100% true and unquestionable and if it's wrong then we are all fools and all of our conclusions should be questioned"?

Yet again, I have to ask, if you don't accept evolution, on what basis do you assume that either the old or new conclusion is accurate?
I don't accept evolution as the basis for the burgeoning or unfolding of life from a unicellular organism by 'natural selection' expanding into the various life forms. That is not to say that some genes have not changed and passed on to their offspring. However, crocodiles remain crocs, and lions still remain lions.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
That what was once said to be true and taught as truth is no longer true. Again -- the concept of recapitulation was taught for decades to be true. Now it is not.
And that's where science has it over religion. It's willing to admit its mistakes and change, whereas religion is unwilling to do either.

up with science down with religion.png


.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
I don't accept evolution as the basis for the burgeoning or unfolding of life from a unicellular organism by 'natural selection' expanding into the various life forms. That is not to say that some genes have not changed and passed on to their offspring. However, crocodiles remain crocs, and lions still remain lions.
But crocodiles are reptiles that evolved from earlier reptiles, and lions are felines that evolved from earlier felines.

Do you accept this?
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
And that's where science has it over religion. It's willing to admit its mistakes and change, whereas religion is unwilling to do either.
The vast majority of religions...I’d agree. But JW’s have adjusted and refined their understanding regarding quite a few Biblical topics over the years.
Proverbs 4:18
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
But crocodiles are reptiles that evolved from earlier reptiles, and lions are felines that evolved from earlier felines.

Do you accept this?
No, why would I? I do accept that inbreeding on a consistent basis may render certain genes as inoperable in the long run. The fact that there are certain parts of a body that have not been determined by scientists to be of any use does not mean they are of no use. I hope you understand that statement.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I'm talking mistakes here. So, what mistakes has the Christian religion made that it's corrected?

.
Obviously you don't think it was a mistake to teach that the human embryo went through all stages of evolution, do you? You say you're talking about mistakes in the Christian religion, as if evolutionary thinking has not made any mistakes. You drew the contrast, not me as if Christianity has never changed its opinion about anything.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Obviously you don't think it was a mistake to teach that the human embryo went through all stages of evolution, do you? You say you're talking about mistakes in the Christian religion, as if evolutionary thinking has not made any mistakes. You drew the contrast, not me as if Christianity has never changed its opinion about anything.
Your inability to answer my question, "what mistakes has the Christian religion made that it's corrected?" tells me you believe there are no mistakes to admit to and correct, just as I said. Which stands in direct contradiction to your initial claim; "Sorry, that is not true."

Unfortunately, you can't have it both ways. ;)

.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Obviously you don't think it was a mistake to teach that the human embryo went through all stages of evolution, do you? You say you're talking about mistakes in the Christian religion, as if evolutionary thinking has not made any mistakes. You drew the contrast, not me as if Christianity has never changed its opinion about anything.
Now you are talking about the work of Ernst Haeckel. He was a small blip in the history of evolution and many of his ideas were shown to be wrong, though he could be said to have strted the study of embryology.

Ontogeny does not recapitulate physiology. He was wrong in that. And it was never taught in public schools. By the time evolution entered the curriculum his ideas had been refuted. He was taught about because he was part of the history of the science. Scientists do not cover up their past mistakes and pretend that they never happened.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
No, why would I? I do accept that inbreeding on a consistent basis may render certain genes as inoperable in the long run. The fact that there are certain parts of a body that have not been determined by scientists to be of any use does not mean they are of no use. I hope you understand that statement.

Because all of the scientific evidence confirms that.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I'm talking mistakes here. So, what mistakes has the Christian religion made that it's corrected?

.
I'm not sure what mistakes you are talking about. There are controversies and questions about many things.
We could always go back to poor Joan of Arc and discuss that for a while. Or consider what the Pope apologized for. Do you think he was talking about mistakes they made?
Your inability to answer my question, "what mistakes has the Christian religion made that it's corrected?" tells me you believe there are no mistakes to admit to and correct, just as I said. Which stands in direct contradiction to your initial claim; "Sorry, that is not true."

Unfortunately, you can't have it both ways. ;)

.
Your inability to answer my question, "what mistakes has the Christian religion made that it's corrected?" tells me you believe there are no mistakes to admit to and correct, just as I said. Which stands in direct contradiction to your initial claim; "Sorry, that is not true."

Unfortunately, you can't have it both ways. ;)

.
I don't know what you are talking about. You might be more specific in order to discuss this.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Because all of the scientific evidence confirms that.
One does not have to be an atheist to examine biological evidence and work with it. Questions have arisen as I see the news as scientists examine stem cells and perhaps growing a new(?) brain.
 
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