"Evidence" for God - Continued from another thread

[shunyadragon]

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shunyadragon You have to prove "Miracle" do NOT exist!
The Dancing Sun Miraclel

Again, again and again . . . .logically it is on the burden of the one making the claim, as in the existence of miracles.

Burden Of Proof - Definition & Examples | LF

Logical Fallacies / Burden Of Proof
Burden of Proof

This fallacy originates from the Latin phrase "onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit, non ei qui negat"). The burden of proof is on the person who makes the claim, not on the person who denies (or questions) the claim. The fallacy of the Burden of Proof occurs when someone who is making a claim, puts the burden of proof on another party to disprove what they are claiming.

Example of Burden of Proof

• Ellis: "I believe that fairies exists."Marty: "How can you prove it?Ellis: "I don't have to, if you can't prove that fairies don't exist."

By definition Miracle:

Definition miracle - Yahoo Search Results
a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency:"the miracle of rising from the grave"

The Virgin Mary told three children she would do a Miracle at noon on October 13... She kept her promise!
Thousand showed up on October 13 at noon; she kept her promise! Explain this away!

Fact: Miracles are from God!

shunyadragon Explain away the newspaper reports about the Miracle that happen on October 13 at noon as Promised! Did the reporters lie!?

People lie all the time concerning biased testimony concerning miracles

Miracles are not facts by definition::

Fact - a fact is an observation that's been confirmed so many times that scientists can, for all intents and purposes, accept it as "true." But everything in science comes with a level of uncertainty, so nothing is ever scientifically "true" beyond a shadow of a doubt.

shunyadragon

Explain away how ankle-deep mud dried up in a few minutes!

The riming of mud drying is hardly grounds for claiming a miracle.

Not objectively verified by outside sources. Newspaper sources are not necessarily reliable sources, especially if they are biased as to the occurence of 'miracles.Yes, people can lie even in newspapers, I grew up in Latin America and yes, news sources are indeed questionable unless objectively verified.

The next word in the dictionary past 'miracle' is 'mirage.'[/quote]

 

[gnostic]

shunyadragon You have to prove "Miracle" do NOT exist!

No, shunyadragon don’t need to, because he isn’t the one claiming it is real...so if you are claiming miracles are real, then you have to prove it.

Miracles are ones that are listed that defy reality and that would be extraordinary, hence it something that would fall under the “supernatural”, “not natural” category.

If you are comparing nature vs the supernatural, then the burden of proof falls on the claimant of something that’s “extraordinary” or the “supernatural”.

You cannot prove something that don’t exist.

 

[Dogknox20]

No, shunyadragon don’t need to, because he isn’t the one claiming it is real...so if you are claiming miracles are real, then you have to prove it.

Miracles are ones that are listed that defy reality and that would be extraordinary, hence it something that would fall under the “supernatural”, “not natural” category.

If you are comparing nature vs the supernatural, then the burden of proof falls on the claimant of something that’s “extraordinary” or the “supernatural”.

You cannot prove something that don’t exist.

gnostic 70,000 witnessed the Mirical! Mary foretold one month before she would do the Mirical many skeptics showed up including bthe news Paper reporters!
It is recorded in their newspapers!
The Miracle of the Sun, also known as the Miracle of Fátima, is a series of events reported to have occurred miraculously on 13 October 1917, attended by a large crowd who had gathered in Fátima,
To prove that the apparitions were true, Mary promised the children that during the last of her six appearances she would provide a “sign” so people would believe in the apparitions and in her message. What happened on that day – Oct. 13, 1917 – has come to be known as the “Miracle of the Sun,” or “the day the sun danced.”

The stunning miracle was a direct, and very convincing contradiction to the atheistic regimes at the time, which is evidenced by the fact that the first newspaper to report on the miracle on a full front page was an anti-Catholic, Masonic newspaper in Lisbon called O Seculo.

 

[SkepticThinker]

gnostic 70,000 witnessed the Mirical! Mary foretold one month before she would do the Mirical many skeptics showed up including bthe news Paper reporters!
It is recorded in their newspapers!
The Miracle of the Sun, also known as the Miracle of Fátima, is a series of events reported to have occurred miraculously on 13 October 1917, attended by a large crowd who had gathered in Fátima,
To prove that the apparitions were true, Mary promised the children that during the last of her six appearances she would provide a “sign” so people would believe in the apparitions and in her message. What happened on that day – Oct. 13, 1917 – has come to be known as the “Miracle of the Sun,” or “the day the sun danced.”

The stunning miracle was a direct, and very convincing contradiction to the atheistic regimes at the time, which is evidenced by the fact that the first newspaper to report on the miracle on a full front page was an anti-Catholic, Masonic newspaper in Lisbon called O Seculo.

Sounds made up. I notice you completely ignored my questions.

 

[Dogknox20]

Sounds made up. I notice you completely ignored my questions.

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SkepticThinker I gave the evidence, and you find it hard to believe ... Thats EXACTLY why a Miracle is a Miracle! They sound made up and hard to believe!

Miracle
a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency:

SkepticThinker PROVING to you it is a Miracle!!!!!

 

[gnostic]

gnostic 70,000 witnessed the Mirical! Mary foretold one month before she would do the Mirical many skeptics showed up including bthe news Paper reporters!
It is recorded in their newspapers!
The Miracle of the Sun, also known as the Miracle of Fátima, is a series of events reported to have occurred miraculously on 13 October 1917, attended by a large crowd who had gathered in Fátima,
To prove that the apparitions were true, Mary promised the children that during the last of her six appearances she would provide a “sign” so people would believe in the apparitions and in her message. What happened on that day – Oct. 13, 1917 – has come to be known as the “Miracle of the Sun,” or “the day the sun danced.”

The stunning miracle was a direct, and very convincing contradiction to the atheistic regimes at the time, which is evidenced by the fact that the first newspaper to report on the miracle on a full front page was an anti-Catholic, Masonic newspaper in Lisbon called O Seculo.

I cannot explain how Fátima, where 3 shepherds allegedly witnessed Mary, or the conflicting accounts of the miracle of Sun, predicted by the townspeople of Fátima.

But I do know about the Sun, that you cannot have some portions of population of Fátima, witnessing the sun dancing or zigzagging from its position, and not for other towns in Portugal, other town and cities in the entire Iberian Peninsula, France, Italy, Germany and the UK, seeing the same alleged miracles on this day October 13, 1917.

Portugal is in the same time zone, in the UK (eg London), while that Spain, France, Germany, Italy are all one hour ahead. But regardless of their location in this part of the world, and time zone, this part of Europe should have reported seeing something strange too.

Do yo understand what I am saying?

If there were such miracles as witnessed by so many in ONE CITY in Portugal, then that the rest of western part of Europe.

For example, if a total solar eclipse were to happen on this very time (as in now) in that region of Europe, then everyone Lisbon to Vienna (Austria), would see the same solar event.

What I am saying that a total solar eclipse cannot just occur in only one city.

Likewise if the sun was zigzagging as it claimed in Fátima, then from Lisbon to Vienna would have seen the same thing.

Anyone with even basic understanding of astronomy would know that you cannot witness the “dancing sun” without it being seen elsewhere. And no other towns or cities in Portugal shared these observations of miracles, which tell me these miracles didn’t on October 13, 1917.

The newspaper reporters and the Catholics who had researched these miracles in Fátima, were utter idiots in regarding to the astronomy of the sun.

Plus there were too inconsistencies in the stories. Not everyone saw the same miracle.

Your 70,000 witnesses didn’t recall exactly the same miracle.

You have the benefit of 21st century education, so surely you would about my example of eclipse, that a single town cannot report total eclipse without the rest of western part of Europe observing the same solar event.

That you believe in this miracle, would only demonstrate how little you understand astronomy, the same lack of education as those of the Catholic priests and the reporters..

Likewise what in Fátima, the observations of miracles in Fátima were never reported in Lisbon and outside of Portugal.

So, I think it is a fake by a whole bunch of gullible superstitious people, easily swayed to see something that’s not there.

 

[rational experiences]

We are all humans. Legal position a human on earth in the nature garden parent adults by two not yet owning nature's burning bush by Satanism. Science practice of just human men.

Living by microbial sex sperm ovary legal teaching. Humans on gods earth now. Present now. Gift of life a present ..presence now.

No thesis.

I thesis as the human. I'm an egotist. I function in a cult group enforced human behaviour.

Once medical science human genesis outlawed science legally.

Government taken over by rich men in society changed laws of past medical legal branch had placed. Allowed science practice again.

G O D about man's O maths timed sciences 1 to 12. 1 to 12. 24.

Alphabet. Alphabetalpha....26
1 to 13. 1 to 13.

Light natural stated above only by men. Stated of nuclear mass converting it is not natural light. It's practice changed bio life and light laws.

O body type fused we live on ,O body.
O above cloud swirling cooling in a heated change. Observed cooling.

O swirls by G ...O splits in heat DD. DD cool becomes OO. Cooling. Evolution from heating. Man explained G O D.

Said I believe it's why a swirling rotating planet cooled its body to be one mass rock. G O D symbolic letter use. Explained human only thesis. Movement of spirit in evolution of cooling revolutions.

Heavens cools cooled the same as the planet mass had. Said theists.

Then just a human looked at changed earth rock. Thought about how consuming sun mass by type the changer in natural law had caused it.

No human involved whatsoever in the advice why mass had been changed.

Anyone today arguing only proves their human conscious memory...part of consciousness itself in mental capacity is not present in thinking rationally.

As a fact of just humans advising other humans.. seeing survival depends on truth not greed behaviour or lying.

 

[SkepticThinker]

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SkepticThinker I gave the evidence, and you find it hard to believe ... Thats EXACTLY why a Miracle is a Miracle! They sound made up and hard to believe!

Miracle
a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency:

SkepticThinker PROVING to you it is a Miracle!!!!!

You gave no evidence. And now you're giving a definition of the word miracle which also isn't evidence. Ho hum.

 

[Dogknox20]

You gave no evidence. And now you're giving a definition of the word miracle which also isn't evidence. Ho hum.

WHAT.... No evidence?! The Miracle of the Sun, also known as the Miracle of Fátima, is all you need!

 

[SkepticThinker]

WHAT.... No evidence?! The Miracle of the Sun, also known as the Miracle of Fátima, is all you need!

That's a claim, not evidence.
And despite my asking, you've provided zero details, photos, etc. (that you claim to have) about this claim.
I pointed out to you that if the sun had danced around in the sky, that there would be reports of such a thing from all around the world. You ignored it.

I'm sorry, but you don't seem to be able to differentiate between a claim and evidence.

 

[Dogknox20]

I cannot explain how Fátima, where 3 shepherds allegedly witnessed Mary, or the conflicting accounts of the miracle of Sun, predicted by the townspeople of Fátima.

But I do know about the Sun, that you cannot have some portions of population of Fátima, witnessing the sun dancing or zigzagging from its position, and not for other towns in Portugal, other town and cities in the entire Iberian Peninsula, France, Italy, Germany and the UK, seeing the same alleged miracles on this day October 13, 1917.

Portugal is in the same time zone, in the UK (eg London), while that Spain, France, Germany, Italy are all one hour ahead. But regardless of their location in this part of the world, and time zone, this part of Europe should have reported seeing something strange too.

Do yo understand what I am saying?

If there were such miracles as witnessed by so many in ONE CITY in Portugal, then that the rest of western part of Europe.

For example, if a total solar eclipse were to happen on this very time (as in now) in that region of Europe, then everyone Lisbon to Vienna (Austria), would see the same solar event.

What I am saying that a total solar eclipse cannot just occur in only one city.

Likewise if the sun was zigzagging as it claimed in Fátima, then from Lisbon to Vienna would have seen the same thing.

Anyone with even basic understanding of astronomy would know that you cannot witness the “dancing sun” without it being seen elsewhere. And no other towns or cities in Portugal shared these observations of miracles, which tell me these miracles didn’t on October 13, 1917.

The newspaper reporters and the Catholics who had researched these miracles in Fátima, were utter idiots in regarding to the astronomy of the sun.

Plus there were too inconsistencies in the stories. Not everyone saw the same miracle.

Your 70,000 witnesses didn’t recall exactly the same miracle.

You have the benefit of 21st century education, so surely you would about my example of eclipse, that a single town cannot report total eclipse without the rest of western part of Europe observing the same solar event.

That you believe in this miracle, would only demonstrate how little you understand astronomy, the same lack of education as those of the Catholic priests and the reporters..

Likewise what in Fátima, the observations of miracles in Fátima were never reported in Lisbon and outside of Portugal.

So, I think it is a fake by a whole bunch of gullible superstitious people, easily swayed to see something that’s not there.

.
Your words... But I do know about the Sun, that you cannot have some portions of population of Fátima, witnessing the sun dancing or zigzagging from its position, and not for other towns in Portugal, other town and cities in the entire Iberian Peninsula, France, Italy, Germany and the UK, seeing the same alleged miracles on this day October 13, 1917.

I reply... EXACTLY why it is called a MIRACLE! God can do all things!!! Even make the sun swirl and zigzag in the sky with only seventy the thousand to witnessing it and not the entire Iberian Peninsula, France, Italy, Germany and the UK, NOT from Lisbon to Vienna

gnostic Anyone with even basic understanding of what an ALMIGHTY GOD can and should be able to do would understand "All Things Are Possible"! The Christian God "My God" is almighty! My God can do all things he can take any form he wants to take; A burning bush, a Pillar of Fire, a Dove, a Man and yes even take the form of ordinary Bread & Wine!
52 Then the Jews AND gnostic began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” IT'S A FACT....

gnostic it's a fact two thousand years ago people had trouble believing a God could be a man, now today people have trouble believing that ordinary Bread and Wine can be in fact God!

 

[Dogknox20]

That's a claim, not evidence.
And despite my asking, you've provided zero details, photos, etc. (that you claim to have) about this claim.
I pointed out to you that if the sun had danced around in the sky, that there would be reports of such a thing from all around the world. You ignored it.

I'm sorry, but you don't seem to be able to differentiate between a claim and evidence.

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So, I am supposed to believe you own a computer but cannot ask GOOGLE any questions! Google The Miracle of the Sun, also known as the Miracle of Fátima!!!

SkepticThinker All you need it found there "Take your head out of the sand"! I see you now; Both hands up on your ears you are screaming "I can't hear you"!

 

[SkepticThinker]

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Your words... But I do know about the Sun, that you cannot have some portions of population of Fátima, witnessing the sun dancing or zigzagging from its position, and not for other towns in Portugal, other town and cities in the entire Iberian Peninsula, France, Italy, Germany and the UK, seeing the same alleged miracles on this day October 13, 1917.

I reply... EXACTLY why it is called a MIRACLE! God can do all things!!! Even make the sun swirl and zigzag in the sky with only seventy the thousand to witnessing it and not the entire Iberian Peninsula, France, Italy, Germany and the UK, NOT from Lisbon to Vienna

gnostic Anyone with even basic understanding of what an ALMIGHTY GOD can and should be able to do would understand "All Things Are Possible"! The Christian God "My God" is almighty! My God can do all things he can take any form he wants to take; A burning bush, a Pillar of Fire, a Dove, a Man and yes even take the form of ordinary Bread & Wine!
52 Then the Jews AND gnostic began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” IT'S A FACT....

gnostic it's a fact two thousand years ago people had trouble believing a God could be a man, now today people have trouble believing that ordinary Bread and Wine can be in fact God!

Whomp whomp.

 

[SkepticThinker]

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So, I am supposed to believe you own a computer but cannot ask GOOGLE any questions! Google The Miracle of the Sun, also known as the Miracle of Fátima!!!

SkepticThinker All you need it found there "Take your head out of the sand"! I see you now; Both hands up on your ears you are screaming "I can't hear you"!

Your claim. Your burden of proof.

I've already looked this up long ago, as it's a super old creationist PRATT.

 

[Dogknox20]

Whomp whomp.

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SkepticThinker I must say, your name does not suit you... Skeptic yes but not a thinker!
I did not make it up; I did not point you to a Miracle without giving you any proof of the Miracle: You reject the truth with nothing to say; just some snavelling! Fact is you are stuck so all you have is your whining!

Miracles are a proof there is a God SkepticThinker there is someone greater than you!

 

[Dogknox20]

Your claim. Your burden of proof.

I've already looked this up long ago, as it's a super old creationist PRATT.

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SkepticThinker Miracles are "A" proof not then only proof! Fact is that life as we know it is not something that can happen by chance! Fact is for all to happen by chance just right is nect to impossible to have happen!

 

[Dogknox20]

What are the Chances of Life Appearing On…Earth?
By: Paul M. Sutter
Show: Space Out

To you answer these questions, researchers at Columbia University turned to a statistical modeling with a technique called Bayesian inference. This technique doesn't just take a model at face value, it folds in the facts that we know - the fact that life appeared early, and intelligence appeared late.

The researchers had to pick a particular model to describe the chances of life and intelligence appearing on the planet. And the particular model that they picked assumes that there is a constant chance in any given chunk of time for life and intelligence to appear. What we don't know is that constant chance. It could be that once conditions are favorable, life has a 10% chance of appearing in any given hundred million years. Or 90%. Or 1%. And likewise, for intelligence. etc

 

[Dogknox20]

Again, again and again . . . .logically it is on the burden of the one making the claim, as in the existence of miracles.

Burden Of Proof - Definition & Examples | LF

Logical Fallacies / Burden Of Proof
Burden of Proof

This fallacy originates from the Latin phrase "onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit, non ei qui negat"). The burden of proof is on the person who makes the claim, not on the person who denies (or questions) the claim. The fallacy of the Burden of Proof occurs when someone who is making a claim, puts the burden of proof on another party to disprove what they are claiming.

Example of Burden of Proof

• Ellis: "I believe that fairies exists."Marty: "How can you prove it?Ellis: "I don't have to, if you can't prove that fairies don't exist."

By definition Miracle:

Definition miracle - Yahoo Search Results
a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency:"the miracle of rising from the grave"



People lie all the time concerning biased testimony concerning miracles

Miracles are not facts by definition::

Fact - a fact is an observation that's been confirmed so many times that scientists can, for all intents and purposes, accept it as "true." But everything in science comes with a level of uncertainty, so nothing is ever scientifically "true" beyond a shadow of a doubt.


The riming of mud drying is hardly grounds for claiming a miracle.

Not objectively verified by outside sources. Newspaper sources are not necessarily reliable sources, especially if they are biased as to the occurence of 'miracles.Yes, people can lie even in newspapers, I grew up in Latin America and yes, news sources are indeed questionable unless objectively verified.

The next word in the dictionary past 'miracle' is 'mirage.'

[/QUOTE]
shunyadragon if you have a BELIEF then the burden of proof falls on you!

You "BELIEVE" there is no God! You cannot prove there is not a god! You say: It is negative to believe a negative, so you do NOT need to prove your "BELIEF" only a positive needs proof! I say: Scientists know there are Miracles, example they see people living when they should have died! But they cannot measure miracles, so they do not figure into a burden of proof! Proof is "There are Miracles"! Miracles are from God!

 

[SkepticThinker]

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SkepticThinker I must say, your name does not suit you... Skeptic yes but not a thinker!
I did not make it up; I did not point you to a Miracle without giving you any proof of the Miracle: You reject the truth with nothing to say; just some snavelling! Fact is you are stuck so all you have is your whining!

You've given me nothing. So there's nothing to think about. And you still haven't answered my questions. Questions, mind you, that were aimed toward you providing evidence for your claims. Repeating your claims over and over and just asserting they're true doesn't accomplish anything.

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Miracles are a proof there is a God SkepticThinker there is someone greater than you!

Nope.

 

[gnostic]

I reply... EXACTLY why it is called a MIRACLE! God can do all things!!! Even make the sun swirl and zigzag in the sky with only seventy the thousand to witnessing it and not the entire Iberian Peninsula, France, Italy, Germany and the UK, NOT from Lisbon to Vienna

You still don’t understand that what you are saying cannot be true and can never happen.

It cannot happen because every cities, towns and villages in Portugal would have witnessed this miracle on October 13, 1917 too.

Either the news report was fake, or the people of Fátima was suffering from mass-hallucination and mass-delusion.

This is why miracles are often considered fake, because it defy natural reality. And you are forgetting, not everyone saw and recall exactly the same miracle. Other people in Fátima didn’t recall seeing bizarre movements from the sun; some only recall the color changed.

With so many different accounts recalling different miracles, then only fools believe in such stories.

Observations of the sun cannot be different for just one city, and not for the rest of Portugal, because everyone else is looking at the same sun.

As I had told you before a single town cannot observe total solar eclipse without the region in Western Europe seeing the same eclipse. It is simply not possible.

So if the sun deviate from its normal course in the sky, not only would Western Europe would have seen it, so would the rest of Europe, Africa and Western Asia would notice the deviation of its course.

Do you remember of miracle of Joshua 10, where god stop the sun and moon during the Israelite’s battle with Amorites for a whole day?

That cannot possibly happen, because the Moon don’t stop and restart orbiting, and the Earth cannot stop and restart it rotational motion for 24 hours. Again only fools would believe that this miracle can happen without the entire world population noticing it too. This tell me that Joshua 10 is fake, invented story with no basis in reality.