PopeADope asked in the O.P “ What evidence do you have that God exists? You can share your personal testimony of answered prayers or you can say God left signs in nature or say whatever you feel like saying in response to this op.”
Hi PopeADope :
I am a Christian theist and can only offer my opinion in context of Judeo-Christian religion. I admit surprise that certain points have not been made by Christian theists.
I believe that your question regarding personal evidence is both profound and fundamental to authentic religion and, is one of the pivotal questions that separates the mere study of religion from authentic religion itself.
Anyone may be involved in “theology” (i.e. the study of religion), including an atheist. However, (at least in the context of historically authentic Judeo-Christianity), authentic, living, religion has always involved communication between God and mankind. That is, it involved and still involves revelation and communication from God.
1) REVELATION AS EVIDENCE OF THE EXISTENCE OF GOD.
We’ve all observed the endless philosophical, “cosmological”; “traditional”, “logical” and “scientific” data discussed between theists and agnostics and, though they are the most popular data types to use (since logician-philosopher-scientists seem to want to “try” to “analyze” and "debate"…). Still I do not think that religion is supposed to be provable by such means and more importantly I do not believe these are the most powerful types of evidence for Christians to build and sustain a belief in God's existence.
I believe the strongest and most powerful, most compelling and profound evidence upon which one may base increasing faith in God's existence is direct communication with God; personal revelation from God to an individual.
For example; Anciently, christianity had the promise of the Holy Ghost, given to individuals who enter into the proper spiritual process of change which results in obtaining the gift of the Holy Ghost. It is individualized. It is trustworthy. Those who have revelation seem to possess the strongest testimony of the truth of religious principles, including the existence of God.
However, this experience and gift cannot be directly shared by those who do not possess it as any other “second hand” data. It brings objective experiences to those who have it, but then, how does that person do more than “describe” to another person; regarding their personal revelations, or personal communications from God? To the outsider, (who is inexperienced in such things himself), those things may seem like ouigi boards or crystal balls at the county fair. It is difficult for me, (as a religionist) to condemn the agnostic for his skepticism that any such communication from God is taking place, and for his unwillingness to experiment with faith himself (though I wish he would).
The difficulty on a basic level is that miracles and personal communication from God seem, in the main, to happen most commonly once certain keys are turned. For example, with rare exception, some degree of faith precedes the most powerful data (the miracles; the personal objective evidence, and the conversations with deity), rather than faith following the personal experiences and the data.
2) OBJECTIVE AND OBSERVABLE EVIDENCE OFTEN ACCOMPANIES REVELATION
Revelation often carries within it, the objective evidence that it is not a phenomenon generated by our own psyche. There are objective elements to revelation imbedded within it, as evidence that one is not crazy, and that they are not simply manufacturing the data.
Barring the fakers or the mentally unstable; The person who in actuality receives the witness of Gods existence by direct revelation from God, simply declares their own experience and insights they are given rather than simply being left to quote scripture or to quote science or to quote logic or to quote tradition (etc) as their authority for declaring the existence of God. I believe the orientation and quality of data gained by personal revelation versus all other types of "witness" is different.
For example, when a Christian is given a dream-revelation about something that will happen in the near future and it happens, (e.g. they are told a certain seemingly healthy person, living in a far away place will die in 48 hours) and it happens, then the experience carries with it objective evidence that the event was communication from an external source. (God). The persons diary entry or spousal observations may serve as evidence that the dream happened. The fact that the person in fact dies is objective. If this sort of communication about future events happens once, then perhaps it was simply coincidence. If it happens over and over during a life time, then it is something else that is going on. Still, the dreams can be described, but the experience itself cannot be shared and I do not think it is intended to be directly shared.
There is some degree of shared experience that is possible of course. For example, when two Christian brothers (i.e. family members), living on different continents have made consistent plans over a period of a year, but then receive the same life altering revelation on the same day and each write letters to each other on the same day announcing that God told them NOT to do as they planned, but instead, to do something else, and the two letters to the two separate continents cross in the mail and each letter begins with the same opening sentence, ( dear "brother", God told me me we are not to go to school together but instead I was told....), then the brothers have objective evidence of their experience. They have the diary entries, the actual letters, the postage stamp bearing the date the letters are sent, etc. Though the evidence of the receivers of revelation have their personal experience, they cannot do more than describe what happened. Critics are left to refute with claims that the brothers created the evidence as a hoax. That is, it is only the personal experience of the brothers that is irrefutable, but all else can be challenged.
Many revelations may not even involve others, and, though they may occur frequently, they may occur on a very private scale with little objective evidence to share. For example, if one of the brothers is framing his downstairs and hammering nails all day long and, upon getting ready to hammer one more nail out of hundreds he’s already hammered, he receives a revelation, a strong warning to put safety glasses on and, having had many such specific warnings in the past, obeys and puts on a pair of safety glasses. When the very next blow to the hammer strikes the nail at an unusual angle and the nail shoots at an angle and bounces against an upright board and then into the lens over the right eye and gouges the safety lens so deeply that it leaves a crack, the brother has a right to feel that the feeling that he should protect his eye that came so strongly was not merely a coincidence IF such things happen regularly enough that they are no longer coincidental. Still, the person receiving the revelation can only relate to another what happened. Though he can show another person the hammer and nail and the cracked safety lens, he can never prove the experience of actual and specific warning communication ever happened.
3) The evidence against mere coincident or luck are often inherent in consistencies within revelations themselves.
For example, at some point, when experience upon experience upon experience like these happen, they add up to a pattern that is not merely consistent, repeated "coincidence".
For example, the brother always wanted a Nissan 280z car (this is in the 80s when they are a COOL car). So he buys one in Las Vegas when traveling from Utah through Nevada to Arizona with his family on a trip. The license plate is good for another 8 months so he doesn’t change the title. Once he notices the plate is going to expire he finds he no longer can find the title (which is still in the original owners name). Thus, he will not be able to license the car. To make a long story short, he prays and ask God to help him, but, still no luck finding the title.
So,he looks through Utah and Nevada newspapers for another 280z (the one he bought possesses a good motor and so he intends to buy another 280z with a bad motor – but a good title….). After a couple of weeks he finds one about 400 miles away in Nevada. He phones the number in the ad he chose and asks the person about the car for sale and notices the voice on the phone is familiar. He then discovers that the person he is talking to is the original owner of the 280z he bought many months earlier. He can then get a title to the original car since he found his cars original owner who can apply for another title.
What are the chances this is coincidence?
Las Vegas area had approx. 2 million people in the area the brother phoned. It was months later. It was only someone selling a 280z. The prior owner had suddenly decided to sell his other 280z. The owner had picked that week to put it in the same paper the brother bought to read the classifieds from. What are the chances that things like this happen over and over in the life of the brother and are driven by “feelings”?
The many, many, many such experiences accumulate over a lifetime and all serve as evidence that one is receiving revelations from some intelligent source of data external to himself. What if, the specific revelation and experience that is specific confirmation to ones’ heart that there is a God and that God is the source of such experiences is stronger and more clear than all other experiences?
Though a lifetime of such experiences is the strongest evidence of the existence of an external intelligence (“God” or whatever you wish to call it) and it’s communication to a person, still the person cannot directly give any of the same experiences to another person. The second person must have them for themselves in order for such experiences them to serve as personal evidence of the existence of God.
I cannot think of any other type of evidence which is stronger personal evidence for the existence of God than revelation. I hope these examples make sense and, I might as well tell you that the examples are not anecdotal. I am the brother. When I became christian, I used to keep a written list of such experiences on the blank cover page of my bible. However as the page filled, I stopped because of the number of experiences took up the page over just a few years.
I wish you Good luck in coming to your own beliefs and models as to the nature of the universe (i.e. God or no God...)
Clear
ακδρφιω
Hi PopeADope :
I am a Christian theist and can only offer my opinion in context of Judeo-Christian religion. I admit surprise that certain points have not been made by Christian theists.
I believe that your question regarding personal evidence is both profound and fundamental to authentic religion and, is one of the pivotal questions that separates the mere study of religion from authentic religion itself.
Anyone may be involved in “theology” (i.e. the study of religion), including an atheist. However, (at least in the context of historically authentic Judeo-Christianity), authentic, living, religion has always involved communication between God and mankind. That is, it involved and still involves revelation and communication from God.
1) REVELATION AS EVIDENCE OF THE EXISTENCE OF GOD.
We’ve all observed the endless philosophical, “cosmological”; “traditional”, “logical” and “scientific” data discussed between theists and agnostics and, though they are the most popular data types to use (since logician-philosopher-scientists seem to want to “try” to “analyze” and "debate"…). Still I do not think that religion is supposed to be provable by such means and more importantly I do not believe these are the most powerful types of evidence for Christians to build and sustain a belief in God's existence.
I believe the strongest and most powerful, most compelling and profound evidence upon which one may base increasing faith in God's existence is direct communication with God; personal revelation from God to an individual.
For example; Anciently, christianity had the promise of the Holy Ghost, given to individuals who enter into the proper spiritual process of change which results in obtaining the gift of the Holy Ghost. It is individualized. It is trustworthy. Those who have revelation seem to possess the strongest testimony of the truth of religious principles, including the existence of God.
However, this experience and gift cannot be directly shared by those who do not possess it as any other “second hand” data. It brings objective experiences to those who have it, but then, how does that person do more than “describe” to another person; regarding their personal revelations, or personal communications from God? To the outsider, (who is inexperienced in such things himself), those things may seem like ouigi boards or crystal balls at the county fair. It is difficult for me, (as a religionist) to condemn the agnostic for his skepticism that any such communication from God is taking place, and for his unwillingness to experiment with faith himself (though I wish he would).
The difficulty on a basic level is that miracles and personal communication from God seem, in the main, to happen most commonly once certain keys are turned. For example, with rare exception, some degree of faith precedes the most powerful data (the miracles; the personal objective evidence, and the conversations with deity), rather than faith following the personal experiences and the data.
2) OBJECTIVE AND OBSERVABLE EVIDENCE OFTEN ACCOMPANIES REVELATION
Revelation often carries within it, the objective evidence that it is not a phenomenon generated by our own psyche. There are objective elements to revelation imbedded within it, as evidence that one is not crazy, and that they are not simply manufacturing the data.
Barring the fakers or the mentally unstable; The person who in actuality receives the witness of Gods existence by direct revelation from God, simply declares their own experience and insights they are given rather than simply being left to quote scripture or to quote science or to quote logic or to quote tradition (etc) as their authority for declaring the existence of God. I believe the orientation and quality of data gained by personal revelation versus all other types of "witness" is different.
For example, when a Christian is given a dream-revelation about something that will happen in the near future and it happens, (e.g. they are told a certain seemingly healthy person, living in a far away place will die in 48 hours) and it happens, then the experience carries with it objective evidence that the event was communication from an external source. (God). The persons diary entry or spousal observations may serve as evidence that the dream happened. The fact that the person in fact dies is objective. If this sort of communication about future events happens once, then perhaps it was simply coincidence. If it happens over and over during a life time, then it is something else that is going on. Still, the dreams can be described, but the experience itself cannot be shared and I do not think it is intended to be directly shared.
There is some degree of shared experience that is possible of course. For example, when two Christian brothers (i.e. family members), living on different continents have made consistent plans over a period of a year, but then receive the same life altering revelation on the same day and each write letters to each other on the same day announcing that God told them NOT to do as they planned, but instead, to do something else, and the two letters to the two separate continents cross in the mail and each letter begins with the same opening sentence, ( dear "brother", God told me me we are not to go to school together but instead I was told....), then the brothers have objective evidence of their experience. They have the diary entries, the actual letters, the postage stamp bearing the date the letters are sent, etc. Though the evidence of the receivers of revelation have their personal experience, they cannot do more than describe what happened. Critics are left to refute with claims that the brothers created the evidence as a hoax. That is, it is only the personal experience of the brothers that is irrefutable, but all else can be challenged.
Many revelations may not even involve others, and, though they may occur frequently, they may occur on a very private scale with little objective evidence to share. For example, if one of the brothers is framing his downstairs and hammering nails all day long and, upon getting ready to hammer one more nail out of hundreds he’s already hammered, he receives a revelation, a strong warning to put safety glasses on and, having had many such specific warnings in the past, obeys and puts on a pair of safety glasses. When the very next blow to the hammer strikes the nail at an unusual angle and the nail shoots at an angle and bounces against an upright board and then into the lens over the right eye and gouges the safety lens so deeply that it leaves a crack, the brother has a right to feel that the feeling that he should protect his eye that came so strongly was not merely a coincidence IF such things happen regularly enough that they are no longer coincidental. Still, the person receiving the revelation can only relate to another what happened. Though he can show another person the hammer and nail and the cracked safety lens, he can never prove the experience of actual and specific warning communication ever happened.
3) The evidence against mere coincident or luck are often inherent in consistencies within revelations themselves.
For example, at some point, when experience upon experience upon experience like these happen, they add up to a pattern that is not merely consistent, repeated "coincidence".
For example, the brother always wanted a Nissan 280z car (this is in the 80s when they are a COOL car). So he buys one in Las Vegas when traveling from Utah through Nevada to Arizona with his family on a trip. The license plate is good for another 8 months so he doesn’t change the title. Once he notices the plate is going to expire he finds he no longer can find the title (which is still in the original owners name). Thus, he will not be able to license the car. To make a long story short, he prays and ask God to help him, but, still no luck finding the title.
So,he looks through Utah and Nevada newspapers for another 280z (the one he bought possesses a good motor and so he intends to buy another 280z with a bad motor – but a good title….). After a couple of weeks he finds one about 400 miles away in Nevada. He phones the number in the ad he chose and asks the person about the car for sale and notices the voice on the phone is familiar. He then discovers that the person he is talking to is the original owner of the 280z he bought many months earlier. He can then get a title to the original car since he found his cars original owner who can apply for another title.
What are the chances this is coincidence?
Las Vegas area had approx. 2 million people in the area the brother phoned. It was months later. It was only someone selling a 280z. The prior owner had suddenly decided to sell his other 280z. The owner had picked that week to put it in the same paper the brother bought to read the classifieds from. What are the chances that things like this happen over and over in the life of the brother and are driven by “feelings”?
The many, many, many such experiences accumulate over a lifetime and all serve as evidence that one is receiving revelations from some intelligent source of data external to himself. What if, the specific revelation and experience that is specific confirmation to ones’ heart that there is a God and that God is the source of such experiences is stronger and more clear than all other experiences?
Though a lifetime of such experiences is the strongest evidence of the existence of an external intelligence (“God” or whatever you wish to call it) and it’s communication to a person, still the person cannot directly give any of the same experiences to another person. The second person must have them for themselves in order for such experiences them to serve as personal evidence of the existence of God.
I cannot think of any other type of evidence which is stronger personal evidence for the existence of God than revelation. I hope these examples make sense and, I might as well tell you that the examples are not anecdotal. I am the brother. When I became christian, I used to keep a written list of such experiences on the blank cover page of my bible. However as the page filled, I stopped because of the number of experiences took up the page over just a few years.
I wish you Good luck in coming to your own beliefs and models as to the nature of the universe (i.e. God or no God...)
Clear
ακδρφιω
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