Evidence of a cruel God?

[loverofhumanity]

But is it really better to die of cancer or a tornado? Pneumonia? A car crash?

Why are we in mortal bodies? There's a good question, and it's got an answer actually. It has to do with God not being willing to wrestle and struggle with individual human souls forever, but that we should resolve this way or that, either to trust Him or be against Him or indifferent, within a finite time. So...mortality. It seems this is a place of choice, for those that aren't already resolved. Perhaps it just takes 60 or 80 years for some, while others might become clear much sooner.

For those that get past the age of innocence, there is a redeeming rescue available though! This is why the Christ came: to suffer our evils in such a way as to break the power of evil over us, and allow us to reconcile with God, and have real change in our hearts.

Excellent. Just want to add that God compensates in the next world also. This passage is just an example of how God compensates the innocent who suffer through no fault of their own. In this case oppressors are mentioned.

As to the subject of babes and infants and weak ones who are afflicted by the hands of oppressors: This contains great wisdom and this subject is of paramount importance. In brief, for those souls there is a recompense in another world and many details are connected with this matter. For those souls that suffering is the greatest mercy of God. Verily that mercy of the Lord is far better and preferable to all the comfort of this world and the growth and development of this place of mortality. – Tablets of Abdu’l-Baha, Volume 2, pp. 336-337.

 

[ratiocinator]

So...mortality. It seems this is a place of choice, for those that aren't already resolved. Perhaps it just takes 60 or 80 years for some, while others might become clear much sooner.

Which still doesn't explain why there is so much suffering involved. We could be given finite time to choose without it.

For those that get past the age of innocence, there is a redeeming rescue available though! This is why the Christ came: to suffer our evils in such a way as to break the power of evil over us, and allow us to reconcile with God, and have real change in our hearts.

This just adds a whole new level of unnecessary cruelty and injustice. Why are we under the "power of evil" in the first place? Why would the bizarre, sadomasochistic act of god incarnating itself and making sure it gets tortured to death (only to be magicked back to life a few days later) make any sort of difference? Even if it did, why would we have to accept this nonsensical story for it to work?

 

[Clara Tea]

That's grizzly.

I bought some drug called ivermectin for covid, a Japanese anti parasite and anti viral. It's cheap, off the patent.

The African Governments should throw the anti parasite drug book at this thing.

Implications of all the available evidence
Modelling and field studies done since the start of this study suggest that annual mass administration of ivermectin could eliminate onchocerciasis in many African foci, while other areas need alternative strategies, including more efficacious drugs. Furthermore, there are concerns about diminishing susceptibility of O volvulus to ivermectin's embryostatic effect in areas of long-term use. The suboptimal responses to ivermectin we observed show that data on changes in the frequency of such responses with duration of community-directed treatment with ivermectin are needed for conclusions about reduced O volvulus susceptibility or emerging resistance to ivermectin. Our data suggest that moxidectin could accelerate progress towards the elimination of onchocerciasis in Africa, including in areas with suboptimal responses to ivermectin.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(17)32844-1/fulltext

The effects of ivermectin on transmission of Onchocerca volvulus
E W Cupp, M J Bernardo, A E Kiszewski, R C Collins, H R Taylor, M A Aziz, B M Greene

Abstract
Ivermectin, given to onchocerciasis patients as a single oral dose of 200 micrograms per kilogram of body weight, substantially reduced the uptake of Onchocerca volvulus microfilariae by Simulium yahense, an efficient black fly vector of the parasite in the tropical rain forests of West Africa. Three months after treatment, patients given ivermectin infected flies at a significantly lower rate than those who had received diethylcarbamazine or placebo, thereby reducing the number of developing larvae in the vector population. This diminished rate of infectiousness was also evident 6 months after treatment. These results strongly suggest that ivermectin could be effective in interrupting transmission of Onchocerca volvulus for epidemiologically important periods of time.
The effects of ivermectin on transmission of Onchocerca volvulus - PubMed
​

Peaceful Sabbath.

TY for info about ivermectin. Though, generally, only anti-viral drugs are effective against viruses, there are some antibiotics and antiparasite drugs that help. The advantage of such drugs is that many of them have already been tested on humans for decades and found to be safe. So further safety tests are unnecessary. Similarly, antiviral drugs, like remdesivir, have been used for years against different viruses (not COVID-19).

The US is largely free of the African Eyeworm because the secondary vector (similid fly) is mostly responsible for transmission of the parasite, and that generally is not found as far north as the United States. The worm is also prevalent in South America (as is the similid fly).

 

[Nakosis]

That's a perspective that would change how we evaluate the type of thing raised in OP.

Wouldn't this put you in the position where you couldn't make any claims about the morality of suffering and its prevention, however?

Holocaust sucked, but now it's done it's inconsequential. Hmm?

IDK, maybe we'll see, or not.
Either it is something or something else.

With all of the input from the various beliefs I looked into, this seemed the most likely explanation.

 

[capumetu]

Onchocerca volvulus is a nematode worm that spends most of its life in the tissues of a host organism. In humans this can lead to the condition onchocerciasis, which manifests itself as severe skin and eye itching and often leads to visual impairment or permanent blindeness. According to the wiki entry onchocerciasis is the second leading cause of blindness in the world. The first is trachoma, also caused by a parsitic organism - a bacterium in this case (the same little bugger that cause chlamydia).

If you take the existence of nebulae, rainforests, the seasons, in short the beauty and complexity of the natural order as evidence of a creative and intelligent God then what do you make of the existence of a little roundworm that lives in lesions in the eye and cause the blindness of millions of children every year?

If the green grass and the blue skies suggest that there is a God and that he is great and that he loves us doesn't onchocerca volvulus point to a cosmic sociopath?

Nightmare fuel: List of parasites of humans - Wikipedia

Sir, you have a very great question. Please recognize however that everything went out of balance with Adam's sin. Jehovah has relinquished His reign over man at their request, but He has put in steps to correct this when we show beyond a reasonable doubt that we cannot rule over ourselves. We are getting very close to Him taking action. Every day brings us closer to His sending Jesus and his angels to remove the wicked from the earth, and usher in His Kingdom.

 

[halbhh]

And the common possum lives only 3 years brcause... .? PSN?

All of nature would have to be mortal to fit with the common bible, since if only humans were mortal, then the contrast would provide a clear evidence for God existing, obviating/precluding the main goal of life, as stated in the same scripture collection. The goal set for us, by the scripture: to believe before/without seeing (without proof), aka "faith", which is to trust in a deep way. God wants those that trust Him. It's quite logical if you think about it: what kind of criteria would you set for people that are going to live forever with you in your city? You'd want people that trust you, instead of distrusting, since distrusting leads to misestimations about others at times, and eventually to conflict, as a certainty.

 

[halbhh]

...
I don't know which way is best to die. I can tell you, confidently, it's best that millions aren't blinded.

Ergo: Matthew 11:5 The blind receive sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor.

 

[halbhh]

Excellent. Just want to add that God compensates in the next world also. This passage is just an example of how God compensates the innocent who suffer through no fault of their own. In this case oppressors are mentioned.

As to the subject of babes and infants and weak ones who are afflicted by the hands of oppressors: This contains great wisdom and this subject is of paramount importance. In brief, for those souls there is a recompense in another world and many details are connected with this matter. For those souls that suffering is the greatest mercy of God. Verily that mercy of the Lord is far better and preferable to all the comfort of this world and the growth and development of this place of mortality. – Tablets of Abdu’l-Baha, Volume 2, pp. 336-337.

That quote you gave reminds me of a parable Jesus told:

“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

“ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”

Luke 16 NIV

 

[halbhh]

Which still doesn't explain why there is so much suffering involved.

Well...I've suffered very intensely at times. One time for example I thought I was dying of a violent physical illness, and struggling to breathe... On another occasion very long ago, due to very dire circumstances, I experienced a temporary intense despair so total and overwhelming it was hard to even breathe at all.

I can recall it, clearly.

There is something about suffering from which we survive, emerge.... It's hard to put it in words, but...it changes us, and not in a bad way. It's like.....

...well, it seems for one thing to bring us to ourselves, and also helps us appreciate other people more. Why? (I have ideas about how/why, but that's another topic)

After some intense suffering, from which you emerge, do you find you are better able to choose what is important and what is unimportant?

Choosing what is important (to your life, here and now) and ignoring what is unimportant is perhaps among the two or three most crucially valuable abilities that we can gain in life.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Onchocerca volvulus is a nematode worm that spends most of its life in the tissues of a host organism. In humans this can lead to the condition onchocerciasis, which manifests itself as severe skin and eye itching and often leads to visual impairment or permanent blindeness. According to the wiki entry onchocerciasis is the second leading cause of blindness in the world. The first is trachoma, also caused by a parsitic organism - a bacterium in this case (the same little bugger that cause chlamydia).

If you take the existence of nebulae, rainforests, the seasons, in short the beauty and complexity of the natural order as evidence of a creative and intelligent God then what do you make of the existence of a little roundworm that lives in lesions in the eye and cause the blindness of millions of children every year?

If the green grass and the blue skies suggest that there is a God and that he is great and that he loves us doesn't onchocerca volvulus point to a cosmic sociopath?

Nightmare fuel: List of parasites of humans - Wikipedia

If there's such than as a god,it sounds more like it put stuff in motion and keeps stuff alive rather than humans idea of perfection.

Take someone with cancer. It's natural for the body to be chaotic and develop odd ball things from genetic, environmental, etc influence to another. Our bodies aren't made to survive. We treat because of its affect. It's normal. That's how God made the body. Just it's not quite how we want to live.

On the other side take someone who is Deaf. He may not refer to his hearing loss as a fault. Did god something wrong because some people can't hear or did he have nothing to do with it it was just a luck of the draw?

I wouldn't put too much into "god's" hands unless you have a more specific idea of what God is to where accusations (and attributions of blessings) make sense.

 

[halbhh]

If there's such than as a god,it sounds more like it put stuff in motion and keeps stuff alive rather than humans idea of perfection.

Take someone with cancer. It's natural for the body to be chaotic and develop odd ball things from one genetic, environmental, etc influence it another. Our bodies aren't made to survive. We treat because of its affect. It's normal. That's how God made the body. Just it's not quite how we want to live.

On the other side take someone who is Deaf. He may not refer to his hearing loss as a fault. Dud god something wrong because some people can't hear or did he have nothing to do with it it was just a luck of the draw?

I wouldn't put too much into "god's" hands unless you have a more specific idea of what God is to where accusations (and attributions of blessings) make sense.

If we die and that's it, then 'God' would be a murderer. And so on, 'genocide', etc.

But the very idea of God to begin with means that this life leads to something next: all suffering is merely a temporary thing that will be reversed. (it's sort of like the definition of 'God')

I think the Lazarus and the Rich Man parable captures this aspect quite well: Christ is saying that those who suffer here will know bliss next, but that many who have luxurious ease and good things here will see Justice next (what a truly frightening thing it is to be held responsible for one's actions, as that entails not only the good actions, but all the rest).

 

[Yerda]

If there's such than as a god,it sounds more like it put stuff in motion and keeps stuff alive rather than humans idea of perfection.

Take someone with cancer. It's natural for the body to be chaotic and develop odd ball things from genetic, environmental, etc influence to another. Our bodies aren't made to survive. We treat because of its affect. It's normal. That's how God made the body. Just it's not quite how we want to live.

On the other side take someone who is Deaf. He may not refer to his hearing loss as a fault. Did god something wrong because some people can't hear or did he have nothing to do with it it was just a luck of the draw?

I wouldn't put too much into "god's" hands unless you have a more specific idea of what God is to where accusations (and attributions of blessings) make sense.

What I'm getting at is that if you think some natural occurences are indications that God is loving then by that reasoning you might conclude that the tiny worms blinding children indicate God is cruel. I guess it's a subgenre of "if your God is perfect why is His creation so imperfect?"

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Onchocerca volvulus is a nematode worm that spends most of its life in the tissues of a host organism. In humans this can lead to the condition onchocerciasis, which manifests itself as severe skin and eye itching and often leads to visual impairment or permanent blindeness. According to the wiki entry onchocerciasis is the second leading cause of blindness in the world. The first is trachoma, also caused by a parsitic organism - a bacterium in this case (the same little bugger that cause chlamydia).

If you take the existence of nebulae, rainforests, the seasons, in short the beauty and complexity of the natural order as evidence of a creative and intelligent God then what do you make of the existence of a little roundworm that lives in lesions in the eye and cause the blindness of millions of children every year?

If the green grass and the blue skies suggest that there is a God and that he is great and that he loves us doesn't onchocerca volvulus point to a cosmic sociopath?

Nightmare fuel: List of parasites of humans - Wikipedia

They both are needed to have a perfectly merciful and just God.

There needs to be both Good and Evil things in our world for us to understand that everything has it's opposite.

We could not know Joy if we never knew Misery.

We could never know Pleasure if we never experienced Pain.

Having a world of opposites comes with its drawbacks but it gives us the experiences we need to learn and grow.