• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Evidence That the Absence of a God is Not Possible

Balthazzar

N. Germanic Descent
Do you know the difference between an atheist and a theist?

Space.

I'm a theist.

By the way, I will submit to articulation being an able ability to express that which is true.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I'll just address some minor points.

But God is not - because infinite regress is logically impossible!

Infinite regress is not necessary and I'll explain why.

X⇒Y⇒X

IOW, X is the cause of Y and Y is the cause of X. It is a simply loop of causation with only two elements. There is no need here then for an infinite number of elements.

We are here and that proves the creator is uncreated and exists forever (whatever forever means because the concept of time as we know it - was also created).

Time is simply a measure of change. The change of X to Y and Y to X.

When you do see the picture - adopt it! Because it is better than saying you and your consciousness and the Rose - all came into existence out of nothing!

It is not necessary to say all came out of nothing. Only that X led to Y which let to X. Infinite regression is not necessary, only infinite recursion. Infinite recursion is not viscous like infinite regression.

Just don't break the rules and stop performing your basic responsibility and get fired before you have a chance to meet the CEO.;)

No rules get broken by infinite recursion but unfortunately Y never gets to meet X. When Y becomes X it is no longer Y.

You have no need for God?:oops:
I already told you - the kind of proof you are expecting from folks is not available right now. So learn to settle for less. You don't need to know everything about your CEO to do your job right - not when your CEO is watching to see if your evil immediate boss can manipulate you and make you work against the company. Trust is everything! And sometimes folks need to be tested!

Yes, I work for myself. I am the CEO. I decide the rules and take responsibility for the out come. So the only one who could fire me is me.

But you need to know! Sometimes a mole can be dangerous. Ignoring can lead to your demise!
Certain things you could do - for your self preservation! And I am not talking about the mole!

I can only know what I am capable of knowing. If something kills me beyond what I was capable of knowing I am not responsible. Even a God, if they exist, would be wrong to think otherwise.

Well! Look into all the available evidences and testimonies and figure out on your own. Use an unbiased approach and with open mind. Shred off all the propagandas you hear and seek the truth.

After that if you still can't find the truth then at least you will have some sort of defense when you face the creator. But you won't be able to fool any further the way you are fooling now. The truth stands clear from falsehood! All you need to do is ...seek...seek...seek.

Now is the only truth we have. There is nothing to seek. Just look and see what is before you.

So, that is your defense - right there! Hope it works but it won't because you are smart enough to find the truth!;)

I need no defense. I am that which I am. I could not be anything else. I see no point in pretending to be something other than what I am, even to please a God.
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
You are speaking about powers, as if it's the power that defines God. Maybe this is true for you. This is not true for me. You have my answer as an articulated expression, and I will leave this discussion with the following: "Everything is part of who I am." What would you suggest isn't? What is nothing? Nothing doesn't exist. That's the point I've been alluding to. The lines of reason that follow are based on how we define the term God. You have my definition. You seem to reject that definition. What is I am? That which is, not that which isn't, for everything is that I am.
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
You are speaking about powers, as if it's the power that defines God. Maybe this is true for you. This is not true for me. You have my answer as an articulated expression, and I will leave this discussion with the following: "Everything is part of who I am." What would you suggest isn't? What is nothing? Nothing doesn't exist. That's the point I've been alluding to. The lines of reason that follow are based on how we define the term God. You have my definition. You seem to reject that definition. What is I am? That which is, not that which isn't, for everything is that I am.
I did not claim that it was only power that defines God .. these strawman fallacies don't know up from down .. but the claim that the powers of a God are not part of the definition of that God .. is as false a claim that there ever was .. once again you deflect to the God of nothing without even realizing it .. then cry out that Nothing does not exist .. complete mental upside down because if the God of Nothing does not exist then God of Everything does not exist .. you fail to understand that one can not be without the other .. and once again have managed to deflect away from defining your God .. and quantifying its power in relation to humans or other Gods.

Do you know the difference between an atheist and a theist?

Space.

I'm a theist.

By the way, I will submit to articulation being an able ability to express that which is true.

You may call yourself a theist .. I am a theist as well but I don't think you can legitimately call yourself a believer in God if you don't know what God is .. nor can you define this God in any rational way .. differntiate this God from humans .. nor quantify its power in relation to humans .. .. so can we call belief in Nothing theism ? .. seems to me this is more agnostism.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
You are probably aware of the arguments of "infinite regress". So lets not touch it yet. Lets explain something else first.
I don't blame you for wanting to avoid it because it pretty much obliterates any creator God existing as a first cause. The funny thing about the search for truth is tat if you find truth it can answer such dilemmas.
Let me try explaining in a different way...

Imagine yourself as a (lab-made) strain of E coli (bacteria) with the knowledge of a "microwave" engraved in your genetics and you are put inside a mouse who is living on a deserted island. You are not the only bacteria - there are others with you.
As an smart E coli - you are conscious and aware of your surroundings but your capability is limited and your resource to build tools for your scientific research are limited to whatever the mouse has inside its tiny body and whatever the mouse eats. You don't have the capability to generate electromagnetic pulse and you don't even know what that is.
Now some of the other bacteria told you about the 'microwave' because they can feel the presence of it more profoundly than you can. So now you are demanding to know - how this microwave (if it is out there) came into existence and how electromagnetic waves are absorbed into molecules of water, sugar and fat and causing it to vibrate and produce heat from the frictions.

This is just a scaled-down example to show your limitations on this earth to figure out about God. Of course I can use more complex objects to make my point but just the example of 'microwave' and the example of you being the 'E coli' inside a mouse - should tell you that you do not have the right tools to find the answer to the question you are seeking!
Microwave is created.
But God is not - because infinite regress is logically impossible!
This is a terrible attempt at an argument. There is no tool here that leads anyone to an understanding or valid conclusion. None of it has any basis in fact or truth. There's a reason believers try to make their case using absurd stories because they have no facts nor real explanations.
We are here and that proves the creator is uncreated and exists forever (whatever forever means because the concept of time as we know it - was also created).
False. We humans can be aware that we exist, along with all the other stuff in the universe. It doesn't inform us that any creator exists. That means we can't assume anything about any creator that we imagine. Who told you a creator exists, and why did you believe them?
So since you don't have the right tools to figure out with certainty right now - what are your options?
You could reject all the things that cannot be proven to you right now - or you could use your common sense and some logical deductions and you could also look into the available testimonies and like solving a jigsaw puzzle - you could try to figure out which pieces goes where and make more sense.
When all the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle fall into correct spot - you may begin to see the actual picture! You may not have the actual Rose per se - in your hand but you may see the picture of the Rose that the jigsaw puzzle pieces were all about.

When you do see the picture - adopt it! Because it is better than saying you and your consciousness and the Rose - all came into existence out of nothing!
The "tools to figure out" anything is typically reasoning. And reasoning requires evidence to work. You aren't advocating for this. You are suggesting people adopt religious lore despite a lack of evidence for it. Look at your posts, you offer nothing that "connects dots", or "solves a jigsaw puzzle", do you?
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing!
Right. That's why a LOT of knowledge is what smart people attain.
You won't call it "unreasonable" if you knew why we are here and what we are trying to prove.
But no one knows why we are here, or even if there is any reason at all. There are many who believe they know, but it isn't knowledge, ir is speculation and belief for the sake of emotional comfort. What's interesting is that emotionally secure folks don't need to believe that there's inherent meaning in human existence.
Seek and find out.
And we don't find evidence for any of the many thousands of gods. Even you can't provide any evidence from seeking.
I am not here to openly promote any religion!
Just religion in general. And not doing a good job of it thus far.
Also - the complete picture is scattered among multiple religions because hints (information) are given as a need to know basis by different prophets. At the moment - you are not required to know all the answers to believe in a creator.
Vedanta follows a similar approach. But no matter what anyone tries to parse together into a better picture there really is no evidence that any sort of supernatural gods existing.
If you are a Janitor of a huge corporation - you are required to know you have a CEO but you are not required to know everything about the CEO. Just do your job and in time you may meet the CEO.
Bad analogy since CEOs actually exist, unlike any the many thousands of gods. Feel free to demonstrate any of the long list of gods exist outside of human imagination.
Just don't break the rules and stop performing your basic responsibility and get fired before you have a chance to meet the CEO.;)
Yeah, kind of like I'm going to hell for not doing X, or Y, or whatever some arbitrary Christian says I'm doing wrong, as if they are God themselves. I'm not convinced. These threats don't work.
You don't have the mechanism or science to create that tool yet. If you keep using your head with all its limitations and deficiency - it may explode and all the nuts and bolts may fall out.
The only tool you've promoted is a healthy imagination that is unconcerned with reality. I'll stick with logic and reasoning for it's high stanrd for truth and reliability.
Good part is - you may have a few less nuts inside of you. Just kidding! :D
Well I do have a couple of nuts inside of me, but I'm not sure you know biology well enough to get it.
Assuming you are an Atheist, why most atheists read superficially? Someone should really look into that - maybe this is why atheists don't dive deep into anything because they get repelled off the surface! Something to wonder about! :oops::rolleyes:
What are you talking about? Read what superficially? What I'm wondering about is why you are being judgmental and vague about what you are judging atheists about. You don't seem aware that the reason atheists are atheists is because they aren't reading religious concepts superficially and instead are scrutinizing them.
The example was used to show the "limitations".
Read in context! You obviously missed the point. Dermatologist was not at your disposal in that analogy.
It was a flawed analogy, so no harm done.
I did my research and connected the dots and I have some personal experiences to believe the way I do.
Why haven't you explained how you connected the dots? Don't you realize that "connecting the dots" means using logic and reason? Yet you were critical of that as a tool, so which is it?
 
Last edited:

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
You are speaking about powers, as if it's the power that defines God. Maybe this is true for you. This is not true for me. You have my answer as an articulated expression, and I will leave this discussion with the following: "Everything is part of who I am." What would you suggest isn't? What is nothing? Nothing doesn't exist. That's the point I've been alluding to. The lines of reason that follow are based on how we define the term God. You have my definition. You seem to reject that definition. What is I am? That which is, not that which isn't, for everything is that I am.
I did not claim that it was only power that defines God .. these strawman fallacies don't know up from down .. but the claim that the powers of a God are not part of the definition of that God .. is as false a claim that there ever was .. once again you deflect to the God of nothing without even realizing it .. then cry out that Nothing does not exist .. complete mental upside down because if the God of Nothing does not exist then God of Everything does not exist .. you fail to understand that one can not be without the other .. and once again have managed to deflect away from defining your God .. and quantifying its power in relation to humans or other Gods.

Do you know the difference between an atheist and a theist?

Space.

I'm a theist.

By the way, I will submit to articulation being an able ability to express that which is true.

You may call yourself a theist .. I am a theist as well but I don't think you can legitimately call yourself a believer in God if you don't know what God is .. nor can you define this God in any rational way .. differntiate this God from humans .. nor quantify its power in relation to humans .. .. so can we call belief in Nothing theism ? .. seems to me this is more agnostism.
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
Here is the definition I'm using for God.
any deified person or object.
Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

Trees have been defied and so has the Sun as you pointed out.
There is no other definition of God necessary for this discussion.

Excellent - There is plenty of evidence for the Sun = evidence for the existence of this God .. and scientific evidene that this is the true God of Creation.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
That's fine if your interest is just in science.

That has nothing to do with "science" and everything with reason and logic...

Not being concerned strictly with current science, I consider even anecdotal claims in my overall best understanding of reality.
What are you not grasping about my position?
I grasp your opinion. The problem is just that this kind of reasoning is a very good way to believe things that aren't true.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Abiogenesis is completely possible.
But, not known to exist and not known to happen anywhere.
then we can demand a test for God. What test demonstrates any God exists, and that it can perform creating of life?
If anyone desires to do his will, he will know about the teaching, whether it is from God, or if I am speaking from myself.
John 7:17
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
There is two explanations for life to exist, either it is created, or it was formed spontaneously on its own. Because we can't see life appearing spontaneously, the best explanation is the creator.
That doesn't answer the question at all.
You just replaced one bare assertion with another.
 

Balthazzar

N. Germanic Descent
I did not claim that it was only power that defines God .. these strawman fallacies don't know up from down .. but the claim that the powers of a God are not part of the definition of that God .. is as false a claim that there ever was .. once again you deflect to the God of nothing without even realizing it .. then cry out that Nothing does not exist .. complete mental upside down because if the God of Nothing does not exist then God of Everything does not exist .. you fail to understand that one can not be without the other .. and once again have managed to deflect away from defining your God .. and quantifying its power in relation to humans or other Gods.



You may call yourself a theist .. I am a theist as well but I don't think you can legitimately call yourself a believer in God if you don't know what God is .. nor can you define this God in any rational way .. differntiate this God from humans .. nor quantify its power in relation to humans .. .. so can we call belief in Nothing theism ? .. seems to me this is more agnostism.
It appears you are asking if a tree that falls in the woods makes a sound if no one is there to hear it. The positive and negative poles of a magnet, for example. This is the premise I operate under, and I apply this to the term God in relation to the universe and how the universe operates. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm right. I'm sure I'm both.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Excellent - There is plenty of evidence for the Sun = evidence for the existence of this God .. and scientific evidene that this is the true God of Creation.

Exactly, it wasn't that hard.
I've always thought that one could define a God into or out of existence.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
I've always thought that one could define a God into or out of existence.
2:164
Original Arabic narration/text from Muhammad's time:

وَاِلٰـہُکُمۡ اِلٰہٌ وَّاحِدٌ ۚ لَاۤ اِلٰہَ اِلَّا ہُوَ الرَّحۡمٰنُ الرَّحِیۡمُ ﴿۱۶۴﴾٪

2:164
And your God is One God; there is no God but He, the Gracious, the Merciful.
Above, G-d is well defined, right, please?

Regards
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Every time I see the thread's title, it still looks
like a claim that there's evidence for....
Absence of a god isn't possible.

Better would be...
Evidence for the absence of a god is not possible.
 

Andrew Stephen

Stephen Andrew
Premium Member
In logic, the Soul is the Temple of the Flesh and the Spirit and logically is the Trinity of the Mortal Body.
The Spirit is blown into the Soul at the blood and water birth from the mother for all mankind in the Flesh as The Created Body.

And the Christ in all mankind becomes again as glorified in immortality and incorruptibility becoming again through all of the wondrous mysteries of the faith and transfigured into the image of the Creator God, for the Father.
Peace to all,

In Logic:
For from Him and through Him and for Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen. Romans, 11:36
In logic, the mind of God is delivered through The Power of the Holy Spirit Person as God through the Person of Jesus as God becoming The Christ for all mankind becoming again the image of the Creator God for God the Father in the intelligence of infallible eternity and one in being.

On another note and through logic and faith, The Baptism of the Christ by St. John the Baptizer in The Pentecost of The Body of Christ allows death and resurrection of the immortal and incorruptible Body of Christ through death and resurrection from the Cross to become again glorified and transfigured.

And with the respect to the Flesh and Spirit in the Soul of all mankind:
In logic, what I see from the logic through the Power is from created, born mortal and corrupt, becoming transformed immortal and incorruptible, becoming again glorified and transfigured becoming the image of Creation, a logical Trinity in Eternity becoming reborn as the New Body, re-imaged and saved, in the logic through "One Breath" as the one pattern from unfailing intelligence.

Peace always,
Stephen
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
In logic, the Soul is the Temple of the Flesh and the Spirit and logically is the Trinity of the Mortal Body.
The Spirit is blown into the Soul at the blood and water birth from the mother for all mankind in the Flesh as The Created Body.
None of his is factual, so logic can't apply to any of it. Logic can only be used with true premises and true statements, not religious lore.
And the Christ in all mankind becomes again as glorified in immortality and incorruptibility becoming again through all of the wondrous mysteries of the faith and transfigured into the image of the Creator God, for the Father.
None of this is factual. Don't you have anything truthful to support your beliefs?
In Logic:
For from Him and through Him and for Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen. Romans, 11:36
This is in the Bible, not in logic. So you are incorrect again.
In logic, the mind of God is delivered through The Power of the Holy Spirit Person as God through the Person of Jesus as God becoming The Christ for all mankind becoming again the image of the Creator God for God the Father in the intelligence of infallible eternity and one in being.
There is no logic to apply since there is no God known to exist. Demonstrate that any God exists and then you can procede.
On another note and through logic and faith, The Baptism of the Christ by St. John the Baptizer in The Pentecost of The Body of Christ allows death and resurrection of the immortal and incorruptible Body of Christ through death and resurrection from the Cross to become again glorified and transfigured.
You keep mentioning logic but then don't cite anything factual. Logic doesn't apply to anything you've said.
And with the respect to the Flesh and Spirit in the Soul of all mankind:
In logic, what I see from the logic through the Power is from created, born mortal and corrupt, becoming transformed immortal and incorruptible, becoming again glorified and transfigured becoming the image of Creation, a logical Trinity in Eternity becoming reborn as the New Body, re-imaged and saved, in the logic through "One Breath" as the one pattern from unfailing intelligence.
You must not understand what logic is and means. None of this is factual either.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
It appears you are asking if a tree that falls in the woods makes a sound if no one is there to hear it. The positive and negative poles of a magnet, for example. This is the premise I operate under, and I apply this to the term God in relation to the universe and how the universe operates. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm right. I'm sure I'm both.
How does the word "God" correlate to anything in reality? The word can't be defined in any way that describes observed phenomenon, so questionable as being accurate.

Who told you there was a God in the first place, and why did you believe them?
 

Balthazzar

N. Germanic Descent
How does the word "God" correlate to anything in reality? The word can't be defined in any way that describes observed phenomenon, so questionable as being accurate.

Who told you there was a God in the first place, and why did you believe them?

It's a term I grew up with, so I utilize it in conjuntion with the universe. I sometimes utilize the term universe, also. Same meaning to me.
 
Top