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Evidence That the Absence of a God is Not Possible

anotherneil

Well-Known Member
Since your epistemology is empiricism, your statement is true ontologically. I agree. But your wording is wrong and is making a category error. In a metaphysical God question, no one with sense would even use the word unfalsifiable. They will not even go there.


You have a fundamental misunderstanding of language. In greek, adding the masculine article "Ho" to Theos does not mean he has a penis. That's in the Bible. In Arabic The word "Allah" in Arabic is grammatically masculine, but it is not associated with human gender attributes. Arabic nouns have grammatical gender (masculine or feminine), and "Allah" follows the masculine form, but this is a matter of linguistic convention rather than implying that Allah has a gender. In Islamic theology, Allah is considered beyond human characteristics like gender, as the concept of God in Islam transcends such distinctions. God is the necessary being, and unlike anything as per the Qur'an. Yes, a common example in Arabic is the word ḥaamil, which means "pregnant." While it is grammatically feminine and usually refers to a woman, it can also be used metaphorically for a man in literary or poetic contexts, like saying someone is ḥamilu afkaar), which means "pregnant with ideas," to convey that the person is full of ideas or thoughts. Now you will turn around and say that means he also has a vagina.

This shows how grammatical gender in Arabic doesn't always align with the biological gender of the subject. There are many such cases in Arabic where feminine words are used metaphorically or poetically to describe men or abstract concepts. Same goes the other way around.

You have not understood fundamentals.

To me this is nothing more than religious sophistry, semantics games, and projection. My initial thought was to try to ask you to show me the existence of God with the scientific method, observation, discovery, repeatability, etc., but decided that this would just drag on like an endless back & forth theism vs. atheism debate, and I'm not interested in that, since I'm a non-religious individual, not an atheist or proponent of atheism (in the religious sense).

You could say that I believe that God actually did exist, physically, as a man (a male), and I've been planning on creating a thread about what God and heaven really are to me, for a while & I think now is a good time to do this. Here it is, in this thread:

 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Plasmids are primative life forms

Screenshot 2024-10-07 at 07.15.43.png
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
To me this is nothing more than religious sophistry, semantics games, and projection. My initial thought was to try to ask you to show me the existence of God with the scientific method, observation, discovery, repeatability, etc., but decided that this would just drag on like an endless back & forth theism vs. atheism debate, and I'm not interested in that, since I'm a non-religious individual, not an atheist or proponent of atheism (in the religious sense).

You could say that I believe that God actually did exist, physically, as a man (a male), and I've been planning on creating a thread about what God and heaven really are to me, for a while & I think now is a good time to do this. Here it is, in this thread:

Ad hominem. No argument.

Thanks for engaging.
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
Can you give a link to source of that information?

Can you first show that viruses exist?

Look friend .. If you don't understand that viruses exist .. then it is only because you are pretending not to understand .. in an intended state of disingenuous oblivion .. here is a source of information you requested in any case .. have fun learning about viruses - come back when you have boned up on the subject matter ---- >> Virus - Wikipedia
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Look friend .. If you don't understand that viruses exist .. then it is only because you are pretending not to understand .. in an intended state of disingenuous oblivion .. here is a source of information you requested in any case .. have fun learning about viruses - come back when you have boned up on the subject matter ---- >> Virus - Wikipedia
I don't think it is a matter of understanding, but matter of belief. I have difficulties to believe they exist. However, if we assume they exist, and you ask, where viruses come from, I think the only logical answer is, from living beings, because they are not living beings, but replicators that require a living body to do what they are programmed to do.
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
I don't think it is a matter of understanding, but matter of belief. I have difficulties to believe they exist. However, if we assume they exist, and you ask, where viruses come from, I think the only logical answer is, from living beings, because they are not living beings, but replicators that require a living body to do what they are programmed to do.

Of course they come from living beings being parasitic organisms ... you have millions of such organisms in your body .. Many which did not come from your body .. or the body of a human .. some which did .. and in fact it may be said .. in a way .. that you are the parasite ... living of the bacterial host .. bacterial cells in your body out numbering human cells by a factor of 9 to 1 ... nine (9) bacterial cells for every one (1) human cell.

Now .. a human cell is much bigger than a bacterial cell so volume wise you are more human than bug .. but .. just saying .. you living in a symbiotic relationship with your bacteria .. who .. without which .. you die very quickly .. and so do they ... and so you need each other.

What you don't need is a virus .. an organism who doesn't benefit the host .. and sometimes kills the host .. in that case suiciding itself and future progeny .. which is why viruses have evolved such that the host will survive the encounter .. and while you can catch a virus from another human .. this is not to say that the virus itself came from a human .. the original one. .. originally this molecule or "virus like molecule" came from nature .. not another organism because there were no other organisms .. just proto nucleic acids .. which again are not nucleic Acids .. as some of the folks expect to come wandering out of a lab .. if you read my posts to others... that is not what we are looking for. .. we are looking for the precursors .. and so you have these blocks --- these days labled A-C-G - T. and these blocks link together in chains known as RNA .. the RNA links up like Zipper with another RNA and you have DNA.

Now - Covid - apparently (according to Jeffery Sachs who would know - and in fact was the Guy tasked to know by the Biden Administration) we have a scientist in our Defense biowarfare division - who can put these blocks in any order you like .. there are about 30,000 blocks in a virus. Just tell him which order you like and he will produce that virus for you.

Now .. 30,000 blocks is a long chain .. is going to take nature a long time to produce something that big .. and is going to be many shorter chains interacting to form these bigger chains .. .. whome smaller chains had to interact with to produce them .. which is why point to plasmids and prions in nature .. these being the next rung down .. simple sacks of nucleic Acids that provide a function .. when gobbled up by bacteria .. that will give a bacteria a new trait .. like in a video game .. such as the ability to degrade a new food source .. like hydrocarbon contaminants in soil and groundwater .. an ability in which I am a subject matter expert .. Bioremediation and alternative remediation technology specialist .. at your service -- though I don't do that no more .... saving the world does not pay very well unfortunately .. Biological Corrosion in oil pipelines .. that pays much better.

So -- Primative life we find in nature --- these prions and plasmids .. these were molecules that a long time ago associated themselves with primative human life molecules .. NOT - Primative human organisms -- but the molecules which would go on to become the building blocks.. itself made of these building blocks .. which are interacting in all kinds of ways .. producing all kinds of "life active compounds" for lack of a better term .. trying not to Jargon or over technical terms.

So what you would have is these proto cells forming .. simple - short - RNA chains forming .. interacting with other RNA chains that are also forming .. one chain might be ACTGAG .. the other might be GTGAAA -- and they hook up teo form A + B=C

Now C finds itself surrounded by this primordial Goo . which is actually serving as a proto cell membrane -- a selective membrane letting some molecules through but others out ... keeping some of these ACTGAG chains from entering but letting others GTGAAA in.

So now now you have a situation where C is encasulated - A can get in but B can not .. and so C+A = D .. a new molecule .. D +A = E .. another new molecule .. but one that is growing a certain way .. and there are other nucleic acids encapsulated in cell membrains that are also growing similarly .. but maybe letting in and keeping out different molecules .. membranes with different selectivity in different places but .. going to be alot with the same selectivity.

Now .. along side ... we have Z .. which was made by A+ H + who knows what else .. forming Z-! now Z-! manages to get through the selective membrane and interact with C-! .. in a way that breaks that splits the chain .. creating a nucleic mess .. but also new RNA chains .. this kind of acting like a proto virus .. or .. like a plasmid .. which goes in and links up with C-! forming C-! +Plasmid .. giving the chain a new ability . the Plasmid (P) having the ability to interact with the carbon hydrogen bond in the hydrocarbon .. catalysing the reaction with oxygen as the terminal electron acceptor turning C10H22 into 10 CO2 + 11 H2O .. and the energy produced goes to form this stuff we call ATP which is the energy molecule of the cell .. so we have a cell that is able to harness microbiological electricity in this way. call it ultra micro biological ..

We see this in nature -- some say .. thats not life .. I say .. OK .. but it is proto life .. the building blocks on which life is built .. interacting in ways that are generating new and more complex molecules .. nucleic acid molecules .. short RNA strands .. each having a different function .. but able to combine with each other to create longer chains .. and increasing in function. ..this process directed by specific membranes .. some which will move within a natural setting .. move around and interact with other of these proto cells which are becoming more and more complex through selective interaction.

It is this obsevered natural process .. which forms part of the basis for my claim of intelligent design .. an invisible hand of sorts directing the dance .. just in the way everything is designed .. .. these are design functions we are looking at .. like someone programmed an algorithm .. and so the system operates according to the rules coded into that algorythm .
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...originally this molecule or "virus like molecule" came from nature .. not another organism because there were no other organisms ...
That is interesting, because some say viruses don't multiply in non living matter, on the contrary, they brake up in outside environment. To me this means viruses could not have existed before other life. But, obviously you can say they are wrong and then I can use it against them. :D
thats not life
I can agree with that.
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member

Holy carp .. we are not talking about the standard definition of life .. we are talking precursors to life - and this is the second time this has been said. We have a different definition of primative life than what some blogger might post in a completely different context. The definition has been given to you .. "Self Replicating molecule" is our definition" . we are talking the precursors to life .. not a bacteria walking out of the laboratory. Door + nob = open >>>>> :)

With that in mind -- from your post - "pieces of DNA found within bacteria that can replicate independently" = precursor to life .. if we managed to get plasmids to walk out of the lab under simulated early earth conditions .. that would be a really big deal towards showing how life arose .. .. but, we are not there yet.
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
That is interesting, because some say viruses don't multiply in non living matter, on the contrary, they brake up in outside environment. To me this means viruses could not have existed before other life. But, obviously you can say they are wrong and then I can use it against them. :D

I can agree with that.

wqwq
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
That is interesting, because some say viruses don't multiply in non living matter, on the contrary, they brake up in outside environment. To me this means viruses could not have existed before other life. But, obviously you can say they are wrong and then I can use it against them. :D

I can agree with that.

They may not multiply in non living matter .. this does not mean proto-viruses could not have existed .. as described in the post you are responding to. It looks like virus like molecules .. packets of nucleic acids .. are the precursors to "Life" - and so these molecules have always been associated with life .. but also the precursors to life .. and in fact are the precursors to life .. Born of a virus :)
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Holy carp .. we are not talking about the standard definition of life .. we are talking precursors to life - and this is the second time this has been said. We have a different definition of primative life than what some blogger might post in a completely different context. The definition has been given to you .. "Self Replicating molecule" is our definition" . we are talking the precursors to life .. not a bacteria walking out of the laboratory. Door + nob = open >>>>> :)

With that in mind -- from your post - "pieces of DNA found within bacteria that can replicate independently" = precursor to life .. if we managed to get plasmids to walk out of the lab under simulated early earth conditions .. that would be a really big deal towards showing how life arose .. .. but, we are not there yet.
Yeah. Proves nothing about abiogenesis. This is just a red herring. And you made too many errors providing bogus information.

That should end this conversation. Ciao.
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
Yeah. Proves nothing about abiogenesis. This is just a red herring. And you made too many errors providing bogus information.

That should end this conversation. Ciao.

I made no errors .. provided no bogus information .. your post a big bag of strawman fallacy .. nor do you have any idea what a red herring is nor about the subject of abiogenesis. This however need not end the convo .. no need to engage the thought stopping trigger .. because you don't understand the importance of "self replication" in evolution.

The ability to have a baby is a major step along the evolutionary path Brother Fire .. .. no need to run away in a huff... surely you understand the importance of babies .. progeny .. offspring in the evolutionary process .. Right ! :)
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Do you mean, if person doesn't believe in viruses, he goes to hell? :D
I mean that society absolutely depends on people having enough common sense to make good decisions. When enough people become prone to believing the sort of nonsense you believe in, then society's downfall is imminent.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
I mean that society absolutely depends on people having enough common sense to make good decisions. When enough people become prone to believing the sort of nonsense you believe in, then society's downfall is imminent.
It was not about what I believe, but what I don't believe. And, I don't believe things without good reasons. If all people would do the same, and not believe things without good reasons, I think world would be much better.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I mean that society absolutely depends on people having enough common sense to make good decisions. When enough people become prone to believing the sort of nonsense you believe in, then society's downfall is imminent.
It's not what we believe that will destroy us, it's what we do. What we believe usually follows from what we do (and want to do), not the other way around.

We believe what we want to believe so we can do what we want to do.
 
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