Boiled Brain
Member
That's right. When church had power, people who were not agree with its dogmas were persecuted and died on fire. Our happiness is that religion doesn't have power today.
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Evil God
- Thread starter Boiled Brain
- Start date
spiritually inclined
Active Member
That's right. When church had power, people who were not agree with its dogmas were persecuted and died on fire. Our happiness is that religion doesn't have power today.
Religion actually still has lots of power over lives and political influence. It just isn't as powerful as it once was, at least in the US.
There are good and bad people in religions. Some use religion for good. Some use it for evil. Some use it to ponder and reflect and think outside the box. Some use it to restrict and limit the brain, parroting off lame dogma.
James
Tell me, Boiled Brain. Have you actually read the Bible? That is, all of it? You'll find that in one book, YHWH is aggressive and murderous, and in the other, kind and loving.
Besides, in his eyes, and in the eyes of the ones who wrote the Torah, those women and children were not innocent; they were sinful.
"Evil" is a completely human concept. Among the gods, "good" and "evil" do not exist. In nature, "good" and "evil" do not exist. From evil good things can happen, and from good evil things can happen. Referring back to Lord of the Rings, after Gil-Galad overthrew Sauron and Isildur cut the Ring from His hand, a "good" thing, it resulted in Isildur claiming the Ring for his own, leading to his death, the loss of the Ring, its finding by Smeagol who becomes Gollum, and very fact that the Ring survives, which is an "evil" thing. On the other hand,
***SPOILER***
"evil" occurs when Frodo is finally ensnared by the Ring and claims it for himself, drawing Sauron's eye towards Mount Doom, and causing Gollum to bite Frodo's finger off. But from that, Gollum trips and falls into the pit of fire with the Ring, causing "good". Again, the "good" of the overthrow of Saruman by the Ents led to the Scouring of the Shire, an "evil" thing.
***END SPOILER***
There is no "good" or "evil" in the eyes of the gods. Try looking through their eyes sometimes. You think they got it easy just because they live forever and have some powers we don't have? The decisions they have to make for the survival of humanity are very hard, and sometimes for the good of the whole, sacrifices have to be made.
"Magic" still has to obey the laws of physics.
Besides, in his eyes, and in the eyes of the ones who wrote the Torah, those women and children were not innocent; they were sinful.
"Evil" is a completely human concept. Among the gods, "good" and "evil" do not exist. In nature, "good" and "evil" do not exist. From evil good things can happen, and from good evil things can happen. Referring back to Lord of the Rings, after Gil-Galad overthrew Sauron and Isildur cut the Ring from His hand, a "good" thing, it resulted in Isildur claiming the Ring for his own, leading to his death, the loss of the Ring, its finding by Smeagol who becomes Gollum, and very fact that the Ring survives, which is an "evil" thing. On the other hand,
***SPOILER***
"evil" occurs when Frodo is finally ensnared by the Ring and claims it for himself, drawing Sauron's eye towards Mount Doom, and causing Gollum to bite Frodo's finger off. But from that, Gollum trips and falls into the pit of fire with the Ring, causing "good". Again, the "good" of the overthrow of Saruman by the Ents led to the Scouring of the Shire, an "evil" thing.
***END SPOILER***
There is no "good" or "evil" in the eyes of the gods. Try looking through their eyes sometimes. You think they got it easy just because they live forever and have some powers we don't have? The decisions they have to make for the survival of humanity are very hard, and sometimes for the good of the whole, sacrifices have to be made.
"Magic" still has to obey the laws of physics.
Dude, welcome to the 21st century. The majority of people who worship YHWH do not kill people. It's against their creed. And before you start pointing fingers to the terrorists, they are going straight to Hell. Guarantee it.
tomspug
Absorbant
I don't get it. You believe that god is evil, and yet you don't believe in God. What exactly are you getting at?I am not interested in verbiage. It has no sense. I know exactly that god killed innocent people. Did your read the bible?
Of course Im not looking for any excuse to disbelieve. I dont believe in Christian god (or god of any other religion) on the same reason you dont believe in Santa Claus or Pink Elephant on the Moon.
The problem with this argument is that it focuses on the wrong verses. If you have a problem with God giving direct orders to kill innocents (who have fathers and direct relatives who AREN'T) then why not have problems with God destroying Sodom and Gomorrah or causing The Flood. Heck, why not complain about why God allows ANYTHING bad to happen to ANY innocents EVER.
The innocent are damned by those that are NOT, not by God. The whole notion of families being punished for the sins of the father is prevalent in the entire Bible. You can choose to disagree with that if you want, but that is the reason for verses like this. It doesn't make God evil, by necessity, like you're trying to argue.
The Jewish vision of "the sins of the father" could be wrong, which would make their view of God incorrect, but it certainly doesn't make God evil, it makes our understanding of God warped.
Boiled Brain, I don't know how old you are, but you are displaying the knowledge of religion that a 12 year old would have, or a stubborn child in an adult's body. Not long ago, I had the exact same response to Joshua as you did, that he was murdering innocent people. I still hold to that. BUT I have found it in my heart to forgive him. I see no reason to hold a grudge against a god, who has intellect, wisdom, knowledge, and just about every mental description on a level that makes us look like flies. I don't approve of what he ordered his people to do any more than you do. But if you want to see some real heat and what this kind of question means to believers who are as closed-minded as you, ask it on Yahoo-Answers.
Besides, when ants come into your home, what do you do? When mice go after your food, what do you do? If a mosquito is trying to suck your blood, what do you do? If a bear were to charge you because she thought you were threatening her cub, what would you do?(assuming you could do anything)
You'd commit murder.
There is blood on all our hands.
Just like Jesus said.
"If your slate is clean, then you can throw stones. If your slate is not, then leave her alone!"
Besides, when ants come into your home, what do you do? When mice go after your food, what do you do? If a mosquito is trying to suck your blood, what do you do? If a bear were to charge you because she thought you were threatening her cub, what would you do?(assuming you could do anything)
You'd commit murder.
There is blood on all our hands.
Just like Jesus said.
"If your slate is clean, then you can throw stones. If your slate is not, then leave her alone!"
MachineWashCold
New Member
Because most people think that a religion which claims to provide the only way to the Almighty should be infallible, and as such have no incongruities between the way that its god is percieved and the offenses that its god commits. Even one bible verse is not insignificant, if it is truly the word of God.
Wow. It's not close to the same thing. A movie is a movie. It's not real. Women and children are real. There's no fake blood or cheesy special effects, someone actually feels the pain and someone actually dies in real life.
MachineWashCold
New Member
The Christian god is supposed to be perfect. In my mind if he is not perfect (requiring forgiveness), then he must not exist.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
We don't.
Phasmid
Mr Invisible
But didn't he also command that children were not to be spared in these cultural cleansings? Surely the children could simply have been re-educated? It seems a little on the harsh side to order their deaths, when they're merely following their parents instructions on how to live, as any child would.
spiritually inclined
Active Member
I think it is more likely that the Hebrew scriptures reflect the mythology of these early people, and that mythology included a god that could be very aggressive or very loving, a very diverse being. I think literalizing many passages in the Old Testament goes further than the writings intended. This is, after all, a collection of mythology. Some of the views expressed in that mythology reflect a barbaric age and an understanding of God (or the gods, elohim) that held him/them responsible for all events in the universe.
I accept that bad things happen. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the supernatural.
James
tomspug
Absorbant
You SAY that it's not close to the same thing. Yet we're disturbed when we read the book 1984 and there is a crowd of people being entertained watching a boat full of people being gunned down by a helicopter.
Boiled Brain
Member
Of course kind and loving. Paul, when worked out the christian doctrine, was exposed to modern in that time greek philosophy which doesn' have any similarities with cruel jewish myths.
We live in 21 century and you still justify aggressive things of ancient peoples?
Of course they were sinful. Chief said so.
What about newborns? They were also sinful? What about... cattle? They were sinful too?
Really? God said "Adam and Eve are now like we are. Now they know what evil and good are" (something like that).
He made the Universe in 6 days and in the same time it's hard for him to help
small group of cattlebreeders to survive?
Actually Hitler did the same. Maybe he was the... Messiah?:bow:
Boiled Brain
Member
Untill religion has political power again.
To hell? To christian hell - yes. And you are going to islamic hell on the other hand
Boiled Brain
Member
I don't believe in any god. I just said you love god who killed innocent people. And asked why.
Because I don't believe in god. Why YOU don't have any problems with holy murders?
Maybe just because there is no god?
The bible says differently.
Cruelty of the god corresponds to cruelty of ancient people who made him up.
That means we should not believe the bible?
The bible is not black and white. Don't forget that it wasn't written by God, it was inspired by God. There is no way for us to know what YHWH wants. The people writing the Bible would have gotten many things wrong.
And by the way, creating the Earth is one thing. In creating the earth, he also created the laws of physics, which he has to obey when he interacts with the world. He did things, and the Jews interpreted those things in the ways that they could understand. The Jews did things, and they claimed in their holy book that the one they worshiped instructed them to do everything they said. But Jesus came down and told them that they weren't following YHWH at all.
And I didn't say I agreed with their barbaric ways. I just gave what I think the reasoning behind it was. Don't forget, they were humans, not demons. We are all capable of "evil". And I know HItler tried to do the same thing. I stress to you that I don't approve AT ALL of the slaughtering of innocents any more than you do. It's just that I understand that these people were flawed as we are flawed. And they viewed those innocents the way you view Christians, as heathens following evil gods and doing evil things. Unlike you, however, the only way they knew how to deal with such people was to eradicate them as they had not yet learned how to forgive and coincide.
And to MachineWashCold, forgiveness is about purging oneself of hate, not about letting someone else go. Forgiveness from a human is very different from forgiveness from a god.
And by the way, creating the Earth is one thing. In creating the earth, he also created the laws of physics, which he has to obey when he interacts with the world. He did things, and the Jews interpreted those things in the ways that they could understand. The Jews did things, and they claimed in their holy book that the one they worshiped instructed them to do everything they said. But Jesus came down and told them that they weren't following YHWH at all.
And I didn't say I agreed with their barbaric ways. I just gave what I think the reasoning behind it was. Don't forget, they were humans, not demons. We are all capable of "evil". And I know HItler tried to do the same thing. I stress to you that I don't approve AT ALL of the slaughtering of innocents any more than you do. It's just that I understand that these people were flawed as we are flawed. And they viewed those innocents the way you view Christians, as heathens following evil gods and doing evil things. Unlike you, however, the only way they knew how to deal with such people was to eradicate them as they had not yet learned how to forgive and coincide.
And to MachineWashCold, forgiveness is about purging oneself of hate, not about letting someone else go. Forgiveness from a human is very different from forgiveness from a god.
I dont think you understand xausted....the poster is saying while he himself does not believe in God he does not see why Christians would worship a God that is now and then, genocidal, because that is what is written in the Bible, repeatedly, whether God is actually real or not is utterly irrelevant for the purposes of the original question....
Hence why I dont believe the Bible is empirical, in it God acts like any other cheap human tyrant......until Jesus steps in....but anyway.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
Usually in the movies we cheer the heroes who vanquish evil. Murdering innocent women and children can never be considered "vanquishing evil", so it's a ridicilous comparison.
