Evil

[Milton Platt]

I would like to know chapter and verse on that statement please?

Isaiah 45:7

 

[InChrist]

Isaiah 45:7

The context of Isaiah 45 does not support taking verse 7 alone and using it to claim God created or brought
moral evil into existence.


"The word translated “evil” is from a Hebrew word that means “adversity, affliction, calamity, distress, misery.” Notice how the other major English Bible translations render the word: “disaster” (NIV, HCSB), “calamity” (NKJV, NAS, ESV), and “woe” (NRSV)."

"The context of Isaiah 45:7 is God rewarding Israel for obedience and punishing Israel for disobedience. God pours out salvation and blessings on those whom He favors. God brings judgment on those who continue to rebel against Him. “Woe to him who quarrels with his Master” (Isaiah 45:9). That is the person to whom God brings “evil” and “disaster.” So, rather than saying that God created “moral evil,” Isaiah 45:7 is presenting a common theme of Scripture – that God brings disaster on those who continue in hard-hearted rebellion against Him."
Why does Isaiah 45:7 say that God created evil?

 

[InChrist]

Ron Rhodes is from the Dallas Theological Seminary. So, does that mean you are a mainstream Evangelical? I wish you people would just show your cards at the beginning. Not that there is a thing wrong with your position.

I try to explain who I am from the outset so people will perhaps understand my point of view. These days I only admit to being an Abrahamic Religionist, and that because most Christian churches would see me as deeply in sin with no hope of redemption and that after disavowing what happened and complete contriteness. It is doubtful that anyone would agree on what repentance would be.

So, I believe in The One God, his creation, judgment, and Heaven. Christians spout about who Jesus the Christ is but few actually follow his words. Micah 6:8 sums up God's desire for us. Of course the 23rd Psalm, the Lord's Prayer, all give us direction. I'm a simple Non-Trinitarian. The Christ said, "I came to bring war not peace". We are to work out our own salvation, not to criticise others in their labor.

As to Ron's words, I find them to be fairly empty, but if his words speak to you ...

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Not trying to hide my cards, I just don't especially like labels. There is much about mainstream evangelical Christianity I see as messed up. I simply consider myself a born again believer, saved by Jesus Christ and I believe the scriptures. I usually appreciate material written by Ron Rhodes, though haven't read much by him for a long time except the article I linked.

 

[InChrist]

Evil can be in the words, actions or thoughts toward one self or others. All evil leads to suffering, all good lead to compassion and love for everything around us.

When we remove the evil from our mind we will understand it was what made us suffer

I like your thoughts and agree that evil leads to suffering and good leads to compassion and love. I just don't think humans are capable of removing ALL evil from our minds and lives without a Savior.

 

[InChrist]

Being the ongoing creator of it

Isaiah 45:7
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
​

it certainly stands to reason.

.

When the scriptures refer to moral evil it is called SIN. There is no where in the Bible that says God creates sin.

 

[Milton Platt]

The context of Isaiah 45 does not support taking verse 7 alone and using it to claim God created or brought
moral evil into existence.


"The word translated “evil” is from a Hebrew word that means “adversity, affliction, calamity, distress, misery.” Notice how the other major English Bible translations render the word: “disaster” (NIV, HCSB), “calamity” (NKJV, NAS, ESV), and “woe” (NRSV)."

"The context of Isaiah 45:7 is God rewarding Israel for obedience and punishing Israel for disobedience. God pours out salvation and blessings on those whom He favors. God brings judgment on those who continue to rebel against Him. “Woe to him who quarrels with his Master” (Isaiah 45:9). That is the person to whom God brings “evil” and “disaster.” So, rather than saying that God created “moral evil,” Isaiah 45:7 is presenting a common theme of Scripture – that God brings disaster on those who continue in hard-hearted rebellion against Him."
Why does Isaiah 45:7 say that God created evil?

You are playing word games. Calamity, misery, and woe can certainly be said to be synonymous with the word evil.

 

[InChrist]

You are playing word games. Calamity, misery, and woe can certainly be said to be synonymous with the word evil.

I am not playing word games. Calamity, misery, and woe may be at times synonymous with evil...but not moral evil, immorality or sin.

 

[Milton Platt]

I am not playing word games. Calamity, misery, and woe may be at times synonymous with evil...but not moral evil, immorality or sin.[/QUOTE
]
What's the difference between moral evil and immorality?

Yes, you are playing word games.

 

[EtuMalku]

What are your thoughts/ Do you think is evil the corruption of something good which already exists?


What is evil?

Evil is not something that has an existence of its own; rather it is a corruption of that which already exists. EVIL IS THE ABSENCE OR PRIVATION OF SOMETHING GOOD. Rot, for example, can only exist as long as the tree exists. Tooth decay can only exist as long as the tooth exists. Rust on a car and a decaying carcass illustrate the same point. Evil exists as a corruption of something good; it is a privation and does not have essence by itself. Norman Geisler tells us, "Evil is like a wound in an arm or moth-holes in a garment. It exists only in another but not in itself."
Notes on the Problem of Evil, by Ron Rhodes

Both Evil & Good are subjective. They only exist relative to someone's benefit or detriment. One man's good is another man's evil.

That said, my understanding of pure Evil is anything/anyone which impedes/prevents the Will of another. My concept of Free Will is more along the lines of 'Free from the Will of Another' which would include most religions, certainly the Abrahamic ones.

 

[sooda]

Ron Rhodes is from the Dallas Theological Seminary. So, does that mean you are a mainstream Evangelical? I wish you people would just show your cards at the beginning. Not that there is a thing wrong with your position.

I try to explain who I am from the outset so people will perhaps understand my point of view. These days I only admit to being an Abrahamic Religionist, and that because most Christian churches would see me as deeply in sin with no hope of redemption and that after disavowing what happened and complete contriteness. It is doubtful that anyone would agree on what repentance would be.

So, I believe in The One God, his creation, judgment, and Heaven. Christians spout about who Jesus the Christ is but few actually follow his words. Micah 6:8 sums up God's desire for us. Of course the 23rd Psalm, the Lord's Prayer, all give us direction. I'm a simple Non-Trinitarian. The Christ said, "I came to bring war not peace". We are to work out our own salvation, not to criticise others in their labor.

As to Ron's words, I find them to be fairly empty, but if his words speak to you ...

Dallas Theological Seminary was founded by Cyrus Schofield.. I'd stay away from such people.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Dallas Theological Seminary was founded by Cyrus Schofield.. I'd stay away from such people.

Point taken. I was conservative Evangelical Christian from 1974 to 2003 until they made an end to me. They wanted to control everything I thought.

 

[InChrist]

What's the difference between moral evil and immorality?

No difference, both are sin.

 

[InChrist]

Dallas Theological Seminary was founded by Cyrus Schofield.. I'd stay away from such people.

Lewis Sperry Chafer founded Dallas Theological Seminary.

 

[sooda]

Lewis Sperry Chafer founded Dallas Theological Seminary.

Yep. Lewis Sperry Chafer, the founder of Dallas Theological Seminary, was a Presbyterian. As was Chafer’s mentor, C. I. (Cyrus Ingerson) Scofield.

I don't blame you for distancing yourself ..

 

[InChrist]

Both Evil & Good are subjective. They only exist relative to someone's benefit or detriment. One man's good is another man's evil.

That said, my understanding of pure Evil is anything/anyone which impedes/prevents the Will of another. My concept of Free Will is more along the lines of 'Free from the Will of Another' which would include most religions, certainly the Abrahamic ones.

So would you consider things like murder or child abuse "pure evil"?

And what if being in the will of Another, as in the Creator's will, is the perfect way for the created to have true free will/ freedom?

 

[InChrist]

Yep. Lewis Sperry Chafer, the founder of Dallas Theological Seminary, was a Presbyterian. As was Chafer’s mentor, C. I. (Cyrus Ingerson) Scofield.

I don't blame you for distancing yourself ..

What are your reasons that you think distancing from Scofield is a good idea?

 

[sooda]

What are your reasons that you think distancing from Scofield is a good idea?

He was bought and paid for by Samuel Untermyer, the same guy that bought the Mary Peck letters and blackmailed Woodrow Wilson.

It was ALL politics.. had nothing to do with religion.

 

[blü 2]

What are your thoughts/ Do you think is evil the corruption of something good which already exists?


What is evil?

Evil is not something that has an existence of its own; rather it is a corruption of that which already exists. EVIL IS THE ABSENCE OR PRIVATION OF SOMETHING GOOD. Rot, for example, can only exist as long as the tree exists. Tooth decay can only exist as long as the tooth exists. Rust on a car and a decaying carcass illustrate the same point. Evil exists as a corruption of something good; it is a privation and does not have essence by itself. Norman Geisler tells us, "Evil is like a wound in an arm or moth-holes in a garment. It exists only in another but not in itself."
Notes on the Problem of Evil, by Ron Rhodes

I think 'evil' means 'intentional bad'. An evil person is one who intends bad things. An evil deed is one which a conscious agent intends to bring about or further a bad purpose.

'Bad' too is an adjective that implies a relationship with humans or human views; or as Hamlet put it, 'there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so'. It means 'harm to me or mine', defeating my purposes, depriving me of what I want or aim for. The relativity is shown eg in a football match where what is good for team A is automatically bad for team B. But while 'bad' includes intentional bad, 'evil' doesn't include accidental bad.

So (loose usage aside, and there's a fair amount of it) rot, decay, rust, are not evil, often not even bad, and even tooth decay is not evil, simply bad. Drought, flood, famine, plague, are bad ─ but not 'evil' unless you think God or Satan (the modern version) intends them.

 

[InChrist]

I think 'evil' means 'intentional bad'. An evil person is one who intends bad things. An evil deed is one which a conscious agent intends to bring about or further a bad purpose.

'Bad' too is an adjective that implies a relationship with humans or human views; or as Hamlet put it, 'there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so'. It means 'harm to me or mine', defeating my purposes, depriving me of what I want or aim for. The relativity is shown eg in a football match where what is good for team A is automatically bad for team B. But while 'bad' includes intentional bad, 'evil' doesn't include accidental bad.

So (loose usage aside, and there's a fair amount of it) rot, decay, rust, are not evil, often not even bad, and even tooth decay is not evil, simply bad. Drought, flood, famine, plague, are bad ─ but not 'evil' unless you think God or Satan (the modern version) intends them.

Thanks for your thoughts. A lot you said makes sense.

 

[EtuMalku]

So would you consider things like murder or child abuse "pure evil"?

Murder/abuse in and of itself I would not consider pure Evil. The target would consider this evil while the perpetrator would consider it good.

And what if being in the will of Another, as in the Creator's will, is the perfect way for the created to have true free will/ freedom?

I find most religions to be evil in this sense. Imposing your Will on another (even a god's will) I would consider a true Evil.