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Evolution & Creation: What if God made Evolution?

Deathbydefault

Apistevist Asexual Atheist
That's an interesting understanding. I certainly agree its a process, however I'm not sure why you consider the struggle of life necessary to bring forth life should be considered with a certain disdain to the process. I hear you project a certain intention that you may have if you were to design the system yourself. Yet it seems to me you imagine that life should happen magically, if you were to have the reigns as "Designer"? The reason I say that is because you would imagine a "happier" evolution? You would imagine if you could write the book of life, as it were, you would design it to be less painful, more pleasant, full of rainbows and campfire songs?

It seems your sensing an emotion that isn't there.
I would call the creator of evolution evil, but that's as far as I care to go.
I wouldn't hate such a being, though I can't say I would feel respect or gratitude towards it either.

If I were to have the power to create life, I wouldn't.
There never would have been an evolution or rainbows and campfire songs.
It's too much responsibility, too much of a pain, to deal with creating life.

But, let's say I did.
For starters, I would make it easier to understand how to manipulate genes.
I would improve the time it takes to evolve.
I would make it so that genes that become useless fall away faster.
I would make it so that germs and bacteria had a win-win relationship with life forms they survive off of.
I would do a lot of things, it's not hard to come up with ways to improve evolution, especially when you're omnipotent.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It seems your sensing an emotion that isn't there.
I'm going off two things you said here. "However, a creator of any such cruel process would very much be evil, imo". You firstly called the process itself cruel in that statement. Secondarily to that, you describe that anyone that would create that process would be evil. My choice in words describing this as a "disdain" of the whole thing doesn't seem far off. If I called someone's actions cruel and they who did them evil, I'd say that conveys disdain from me towards all of it. Even if you exclude God from it, you are calling evolution itself "cruel". That's not a happy word. ;)

I would call the creator of evolution evil, but that's as far as I care to go.
And he would be evil because you consider evolution to be "cruel". And that is my entire point here. I don't consider evolution to be cruel. Do you consider the birth process of a child from the mother to be a cruel evil? If so, that puts you into the camp of those who wrote the Bible who said, "To the woman he said, "I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children." They mythologized this by saying the process of life is now a "curse" upon us because we sinned against God.

They share a certain view that life is "fallen", in a state of sin because they view life as "cruel". To me, what I hear you doing is very much a continuation of the same point of view, starting with the premise that these things are "bad" or "cruel" as you view them rather than good. They dealt with it by saying it's because humans sinned against God. You deal with it by saying God either doesn't exist or is evil. To me that's just flipsides of the same coin with neither recognizing that evolution, or life itself, is not "cruel".

I wouldn't hate such a being, though I can't say I would feel respect or gratitude towards it either.
I don't know about that. If I branded someone "evil" I don't think my feelings about them could be considered indifferent or neutral.

If I were to have the power to create life, I wouldn't.
Oh dear. :( Do you then see parents who bring a child into this world as doing a disservice to that child? Isn't being better than non-being? Isn't life better than death? Is life worth the struggles? You see, I think the whole thing does in fact come down to one's own emotional and spiritual response to their own existence, to their own being. I see life and the process of birthing it through evolution as beautiful, myself.

There never would have been an evolution or rainbows and campfire songs.
That's two bad. There's lots of beauty in being alive. Bumper Sticker for your car: "Start Seeing Beauty". :)

It's too much responsibility, too much of a pain, to deal with creating life.
Not to be too personal here, but would your parents agree with that when they brought you into the world? Wouldn't they consider that giving you life was a gift to you? I'm not so cynical to assume that parents give birth to children because they're "bored", or something like that. ;) I think it has more to do with love.

But, let's say I did.
For starters, I would make it easier to understand how to manipulate genes.
I would say that our ability to do this is actually outpacing our capacity to be responsible with that! When we play God when we're little more than impulsive children who think all of reality is about them and their wants and desires, then I'd say if I were God I'd make it even harder for us to figure that out! We're already destroying ourselves because as Einstein said, "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity."

I would improve the time it takes to evolve.
I'm not so sure it takes as long as you imagine. We can observe it happening within a few generations. Personally I think it "speeds up", depending on the need and the rate of change happening. But I am also extending evolution beyond just our biological evolution, but social and cultural evolution, as well as our cognitive and consciousness awareness. I think the pace of it can in fact be directly influenced by our own actions and activities.

I would make it so that genes that become useless fall away faster.
Why? When was the last time a residual tail hurt anyone? :)

I would make it so that germs and bacteria had a win-win relationship with life forms they survive off of.
That already does exist. There are germs that are good for us and we need them for survival, and others which harm us but are good for other life forms. Why must it be about us as humans as the center of all that is considered good? You see, that is the entire source of the problem here. An anthropocentric view of the cosmos and evolution. It's "cruel" ONLY from the perspective of one single organism, namely humans wondering why God as the Sky Parent didn't make things more in our favor. Evolution is not "cruel", unless you are trying to reconcile it with an anthropocentric worldview.

I would do a lot of things, it's not hard to come up with ways to improve evolution, especially when you're omnipotent.
One of the biggest challenges I think for people is to shift their ideas about what this God would look like, and notions of omnipotence and omniscience are really fine places to start! :) Yes, notions of God as all-seeing, all-knowing Sky Parent don't work to well with reality as we understand it anymore. I see a lot, if not all of our struggle is in reimagining life and our place in it, both for religious people, and the non-religious.
 

Deathbydefault

Apistevist Asexual Atheist
I'm going off two things you said here. "However, a creator of any such cruel process would very much be evil, imo". You firstly called the process itself cruel in that statement. Secondarily to that, you describe that anyone that would create that process would be evil. My choice in words describing this as a "disdain" of the whole thing doesn't seem far off. If I called someone's actions cruel and they who did them evil, I'd say that conveys disdain from me towards all of it. Even if you exclude God from it, you are calling evolution itself "cruel". That's not a happy word. ;)

I understand how you came to the conclusion.
The misunderstanding is my fault because I don't have much of a word bank to work with.

I can identify things with indifference quite easily, but it's hard to convey my lack of emotion through text.

And he would be evil because you consider evolution to be "cruel". And that is my entire point here. I don't consider evolution to be cruel. Do you consider the birth process of a child from the mother to be a cruel evil? If so, that puts you into the camp of those who wrote the Bible who said, "To the woman he said, "I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children." They mythologized this by saying the process of life is now a "curse" upon us because we sinned against God.

They share a certain view that life is "fallen", in a state of sin because they view life as "cruel". To me, what I hear you doing is very much a continuation of the same point of view, starting with the premise that these things are "bad" or "cruel" as you view them rather than good. They dealt with it by saying it's because humans sinned against God. You deal with it by saying God either doesn't exist or is evil. To me that's just flipsides of the same coin with neither recognizing that evolution, or life itself, is not "cruel".

It's cruel that giving birth can permanently damage a females body, or even kill her.
Before medicine got so far, how many women died from child birth? How many babies died before age 10? Age 5? 3?
For how many years had it been like that? Why was it like that?

How has evolution been working, exactly? Survival and procreation. To survive we must adapt, to adapt our genes must mutate in a beneficial way.
Animals will rip one another apart to survive. Animals will rape to procreate, and may even kill a rivals children and take their wife so that only their genes are passed on. The genes of the stronger one, as it works with the lions.Tell me, does that not come off as cruel?

I don't know about that. If I branded someone "evil" I don't think my feelings about them could be considered indifferent or neutral.

I suppose it's just a difference in mentality.

Oh dear. :( Do you then see parents who bring a child into this world as doing a disservice to that child? Isn't being better than non-being? Isn't life better than death? Is life worth the struggles? You see, I think the whole thing does in fact come down to one's own emotional and spiritual response to their own existence, to their own being. I see life and the process of birthing it through evolution as beautiful, myself.

I was quite thoroughly abused as a child myself, so yes.

No, no, and no.

Disagreed.

Not to be too personal here, but would your parents agree with that when they brought you into the world? Wouldn't they consider that giving you life was a gift to you? I'm not so cynical to assume that parents give birth to children because they're "bored", or something like that. ;) I think it has more to do with love.

The gave birth to me as their first child in their marriage, then my three younger siblings afterwards.
They did it for their religion, I have never once heard them say "I love you" to each other or show bodily affection like hugging.
If they ever said it to me, that was before I became their disappointment.

I haven't spoken words I consider kind to my parents in about 10 years, likewise, they've uttered only insults or commands during that time.
Let's drop that subject now.

I would say that our ability to do this is actually outpacing our capacity to be responsible with that! When we play God when we're little more than impulsive children who think all of reality is about them and their wants and desires, then I'd say if I were God I'd make it even harder for us to figure that out! We're already destroying ourselves because as Einstein said, "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity."

I'm more than happy to give up some of my humanity for the ability to prevent disease, defects, and mental disorders.
Oh well, I guess.

I'm not so sure it takes as long as you imagine. We can observe it happening within a few generations. Personally I think it "speeds up", depending on the need and the rate of change happening. But I am also extending evolution beyond just our biological evolution, but social and cultural evolution, as well as our cognitive and consciousness awareness. I think the pace of it can in fact be directly influenced by our own actions and activities.

I said "improve" to put forth the ability to keep many of the lost exotic species and save hundreds of billions of animals lives over the many years it took to get to this point.

Why? When was the last time a residual tail hurt anyone? :)

Why not? No reason to keep it, not like a snakes hip-bone is for style.

That already does exist. There are germs that are good for us and we need them for survival, and others which harm us but are good for other life forms. Why must it be about us as humans as the center of all that is considered good? You see, that is the entire source of the problem here. An anthropocentric view of the cosmos and evolution. It's "cruel" ONLY from the perspective of one single organism, namely humans wondering why God as the Sky Parent didn't make things more in our favor. Evolution is not "cruel", unless you are trying to reconcile it with an anthropocentric worldview.

Did I imply that i thought humans were somehow special? I like birds and lizards more than I like people.

One of the biggest challenges I think for people is to shift their ideas about what this God would look like, and notions of omnipotence and omniscience are really fine places to start! :) Yes, notions of God as all-seeing, all-knowing Sky Parent don't work to well with reality as we understand it anymore. I see a lot, if not all of our struggle is in reimagining life and our place in it, both for religious people, and the non-religious.

The notion of god doesn't bother me, nor do any of its supposed attributes, because they are irrelevant to me.

I do like philosophy quite a lot, questioning and pushing out hypothetical situation or possibilities is enjoyable to me.
But, I do not concern myself with hypothetical scenarios, I only entertain them like I have been throughout this entire conversation.
 
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