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Evolution & Creationism are both Faith & Supernatural based
- Thread starter Patriottechsan
- Start date
Who are you talking too?
Wow! Over a 1000 scientists. Awesome. That is like 0.016% of scientists in the United States alone. That is practically a landslide.
Can you really call it dissent? All they are saying is that they are skeptical. This leaves open the possibility that they are wrong in their skepticism. It is not like they have refuted the theory. Just that they have questions. Really not much in the way of supporting a claim of dissent. Sounds more like a very minor illustration of some scientists skepticism.
I guess, when you have nothing, you have to blow even the smallest toehold out of proportion and crow about it, like it means something it does not.
No one has claimed you are lying about this list or is calling the existence of the list a hoax. WE all know about the list and have since it came out. It is not like you brought some kind of revealed truth here, hot off the presses. In fact, everything you have posted is OLD NEWS. It has long ago been dealt with and only comes up as some new, completely unheard of before claims, every time some wet behind the ears creationist rediscovers it. All this says to me is a closed mind and an out of touch understanding of events.
I'm about to head out for groceries, when I get back I intend to do some googling,
It has an interesting history, bombed heavily by the Japanese during WW2, completely destroyed by tropical cyclone Tracy on Xmas Day 1974 (one of the strangest days of my life, I remember turning on the radio when I woke up expecting to hear Xmas carols only to find out that Darwin was gone and is one of the factors that made me start to doubt the Christian God), a lot of the original population never returned and it now has the strong Asian influence you mentioned.
Cyclone Tracy - Wikipedia
I just managed to delete most of what I typed -.- I'll finish it off when I get back home.
Patriottechsan
Member
So this is my quick tally that I won't guarantee is exactly right due to speed I did it and I couldn't list so many and I choose ones that might interest you the most.
MIT 12, Rice 7, U of Ga 8, Ga Inst of Tech 6, Princeton 6, UT Austin 12, OU 8, Texas A&M 19, Cornell 6, Ohio State 9, Texas Tech 6, LSU 7, Purdue 9, Penn State 5, Many other countries main Universities, All of our armed services universities has signees, MD Anderson. Again just run it off for yourself and see for yourself. The number of educational institutions and quality ones are high, the credentials of signees is high.
The fact you can not run from is this. They recognize evolution, Darwinism, has real problems. Parts are biogenesis and Functional Design requires and always will an Intelligence behind it. These people have credentials way above most if not everyone on this board. Yet you guys claim you know better than they do and refuse to acknowledge what they will scientifically. Plus they want honesty in the classroom. They want the problems to be discussed openly and not filtered and hidden and covered up like so much I have shown. But you keep playing the ostrich and burying your head in the sand. It doesn't change the truth to ignore it. I could ignore all my health issues. It wouldn't change them. So its best I deal with them the best I can. Heck I can give you sources that will send you free of charge magazines that show great scientific work done by former evolution scientist. They can and will send magazines free and email updates for free. Then judge for yourself. Quit hiding yourself from a truth you refuse to see that at least these highly qualified scientist see and acknowledge and would run rings around all of us in knowledge. They know how things are worded etc as my links have shown to mislead and distort the real truth. It is not practicing truth is science as they proclaim. For your sake please quit being the programmed robot they trained you to be like I showed near the start of this thread per Dr. Singham article in Physics Today of June 2000. Teaching Propaganda and Brainwashing.
I really don't understand it. If I was told by an article by a teacher of a subject I was taught how that whole area of teaching was done by propaganda and brainwashing with filtering etc and other quotes. I'd be mad and them not the person that informed me of the problem. I certainly would listen to the other side now esp to find out what I was programmed and filtered to not see and learn. Plus why that teacher claimed I was too stupid to handle learning the truth so he had to brainwash teaching me. Really!
Just to add. You act like it is just me. Well it is obviously not just me. You have to include all those scientist on the Dissent List to accuse like you accuse me. All of their credentials etc too. Plus all former evolutionist that no longer are due to the bad science. The problem is not us. The problem is with Darwinian evolution and you refusing to acknowledge it. At least they do that.
MIT 12, Rice 7, U of Ga 8, Ga Inst of Tech 6, Princeton 6, UT Austin 12, OU 8, Texas A&M 19, Cornell 6, Ohio State 9, Texas Tech 6, LSU 7, Purdue 9, Penn State 5, Many other countries main Universities, All of our armed services universities has signees, MD Anderson. Again just run it off for yourself and see for yourself. The number of educational institutions and quality ones are high, the credentials of signees is high.
The fact you can not run from is this. They recognize evolution, Darwinism, has real problems. Parts are biogenesis and Functional Design requires and always will an Intelligence behind it. These people have credentials way above most if not everyone on this board. Yet you guys claim you know better than they do and refuse to acknowledge what they will scientifically. Plus they want honesty in the classroom. They want the problems to be discussed openly and not filtered and hidden and covered up like so much I have shown. But you keep playing the ostrich and burying your head in the sand. It doesn't change the truth to ignore it. I could ignore all my health issues. It wouldn't change them. So its best I deal with them the best I can. Heck I can give you sources that will send you free of charge magazines that show great scientific work done by former evolution scientist. They can and will send magazines free and email updates for free. Then judge for yourself. Quit hiding yourself from a truth you refuse to see that at least these highly qualified scientist see and acknowledge and would run rings around all of us in knowledge. They know how things are worded etc as my links have shown to mislead and distort the real truth. It is not practicing truth is science as they proclaim. For your sake please quit being the programmed robot they trained you to be like I showed near the start of this thread per Dr. Singham article in Physics Today of June 2000. Teaching Propaganda and Brainwashing.
I really don't understand it. If I was told by an article by a teacher of a subject I was taught how that whole area of teaching was done by propaganda and brainwashing with filtering etc and other quotes. I'd be mad and them not the person that informed me of the problem. I certainly would listen to the other side now esp to find out what I was programmed and filtered to not see and learn. Plus why that teacher claimed I was too stupid to handle learning the truth so he had to brainwash teaching me. Really!
Just to add. You act like it is just me. Well it is obviously not just me. You have to include all those scientist on the Dissent List to accuse like you accuse me. All of their credentials etc too. Plus all former evolutionist that no longer are due to the bad science. The problem is not us. The problem is with Darwinian evolution and you refusing to acknowledge it. At least they do that.
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We do not have to run from it. It is not a fact. Certainly not a fact you can determine from that list, since all it says is that those signing are skeptical. What do you think skeptical means? It is not a word that means 'big problems".
Still misinterpreting an article discussing the problems of teaching a vast body of a scientific subject are you. It was not even the vast body of scientific work that is biology or that vast body that is evolution. The article used physics to illustrate the problem.
What I do not understand is how a YOU can make stuff up, that you know is widely available and we can the actual material and not your made up, straw man version of it. I have to wonder about a person that does something so blatant and irrational.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
You don't seem to understand that it does not matter where they are from, it matters what they study. And it was a dishonest poll. They refused to take off names of people that realized it was dishonest. That alone puts that piece of garbage on the trash heap.
ecco
Veteran Member
Your math is as bad as your, well everything.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
No one is running from a debunked claim
I get enough junk mail as it is. I do not need anymore. Especially a bunch of pseudoscience, erroneous claims, false statements, misleading statements, and logical fallacies. You give that away for free here. Who needs it in the mail?
Is impossible math the subject they teach to prepare a student for impossible physics and impossible chemistry?
ecco
Veteran Member
Nonsense. You cannot explain the origin of your god except to say something silly like "God has always existed".
No. It is just you. At least on this thread. I would not expect someone that just said they were skeptical to throw out their intellect and start repeating the mindless nonsense you are posting.
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ecco
Veteran Member
Why would anyone be interested in reading anything from a site called Apologetics Press?
Well, that is anyone other than people like you who get all their science knowledge from sites likes that and AIG and Creation.com.
Astrophile
Active Member
Is there a similar poll ('Dissent from Lyell'?) of professional geologists who believe that the Earth is no more than 10,000 years old?
Patriottechsan
Member
So John are you saying you don't believe or like God of Christianity due to people do bad things to others? Well if you read my story on the first day I joined this forum. I can relate big time to where you are coming from. I grew up in an incredibly abusive home. I won't go into all the details. But from my biological father, step father and mother. That doesn't even include a pastor while I was in college at Tech getting my BS and first Masters. We grew up being good little Christians going to church every Sunday like good little Christians should. Heck my real Dad was the Head of a Sunday School Dept in our mission church which was to minorities. Yet he was so blatantly racist behind closed doors is was appalling. I called him out on it a few times. What a mistake that was.
Anyway, after the incident with my pastor in Lubbock. I refused to go to church for over 2 yrs. Now unlike most people though. I still didn't go wild and party etc. That just isn't the way I am. Due to me being very mathematical and logical. What I had seen through my life was that those that escaped through drugs or alcohol. It was temporary escape but didn't solve and often added to your problems and sure didn't solve any. My younger brother, UT alum, started drugs in 6th grade. I threw myself into sports. I was pretty good but had a career ending injury my junior yr and despite being asked to walk on at Tech anyway. My knee wouldn't allow me to do that. I was mad at God for that too. I didn't get to enjoy my Sr. yr playing. I had what is called the terrible triad and in 1970 it was impossible to come back from and even so today its still almost impossible. I had the Cowboy Dr. do my surgery but just too much damage.
During those 2 yrs I decided to check out other religions at first. I did for a little while. Yet then I soon realized something. Wait it really all boiled down to this one thing. I could save a lot of time. If Jesus was who He claimed to be. Then it meant Christianity had to be correct because if He was God of the triune Godhead, His Son. Then He couldn't lie and what He said had to be true. He was the only way. Telling the truth isn't narrow when its truth and esp if He has paid the price for you. Which I found to be true in my research.
Yet in the time I had been checking out other religions one thing I had noticed. Each one had a works type religion. I had to earn my way to heaven. But not a one of them ever told me the % it took of good vs bad to go to heaven. I think that is pretty important if I am to try and work my way to heaven. I mean is it 51 to 49 good vs bad. Yet what is defined as good or bad? When does the clock start. How do you truly calculate it, much less keep track of it? I mean does it start at a certain age, time of conversion, if so how do you deal with good vs bad prior to that conversion. What is the scale. Murder, Rape etc takes so many good deeds or what kind of deeds to even get to even much less to plus side. Is there an unforgiveable one. I just kept coming up with more and more questions and not finding the answers anywhere in their holy writings. Even in Quran at the end Allah decides even if you die in a holy war. There was no guarantee. So I decided to just go and really thoroughly check out Jesus. So if He was who He said. Which based on my life to that point seemed very unlikely. Then Christianity would be correct. Although at that time it just didn't seem possible.
So I dove in. To make a long story shorter. I was astounded at what I came back finding. I found there were many proofs not only Biblical but extra Biblical proofs of Jesus existence but to His death, burial and resurrection. There was a lawyer named Simon Greenleaf that wrote the Rules of Evidence that is still used today. He wrote it in 1800's. He was an atheist. His law school students challenged him to use his rules of evidence to prove or disprove Jesus fact or fiction. He took that challenge. He ended up writing a book about it. He became a great defender of the Faith and Apologetics for the Bible too as inerrant. I was shocked. The more I searched the more I found people that had gone to research to disprove but ended up believers. So I had to find out how someone so biased against something could be pursued against their will to come out on the opposite side. I kept on doing that. It overwhelmed me but was good.
Nowadays you have guys like Lee Strobel and Josh McDowell etc. So the evidence convinced me but I still had to deal with my personal heartache etc. Then I realized that God didn't create us as robots. He gave us free will choice. In so doing that means by using that free will many, including Christians, will be imperfect humans and hurt people they love or not and do bad things. God, in giving free will has to allow for bad things to happen or we no longer have free will. What He does offer is an inner support and peace that passes all understanding despite what all is going on in your life. I have so many personal stories since to validate that despite so many things happening in my life like the story of Job in the Bible that many know about. So in effect how could I expect perfection from someone else when I couldn't even offer them perfection from myself. Which means that the scars from that exist but don't rule me like they used to. I am no longer controlled by that anger and hurt. The greatest help I got from that was a book by Floyd McClung, Jr called "The Father Heart of God."
My wife and I have been married for almost 35 yrs. Our marriage motto is "Don't demand a perfection you yourself can't offer!"
So yes I found the Bible inerrant and due to my analytical brain I never bought into evolution in the first place. It never made sense to me. I always knew there had to be an ID. Now I am more and more convinced of that as my knowledge of science has greatly increased. Plus I have a second Masters. Plus we now have the internet which wasn't around when I was in college. In HS we still used Slide Rule. Simple adding calculators came out in college and cost over $100.00 that now we get for $5.00 or less. Now you get those graphing etc calculators for less than I could get just and adding subtracting one.
The point is now research is so much easier than going to a library like I had to do then. You can go to the internet. Look at various sites. Read the pros and cons and answers and rebuttals etc for all sides and then make a fully informed decision. Sadly today's educational system is teaching WHAT TO THINK AND NOT HOW TO THINK? That is a great heartbreak to me. I saw so much of that when I was coaching and teaching.
So I'd just recommend go into research openly and let each side of your research speak for itself. Even today I use the same method of research I did then. If I don't know how I feel about a topic. The first thing I look for is someone that once believed one way and then changed. I want to know what caused the change. If the change sounds legit to me and not hurt feelings but a sound reason I want to know what it was and why. I try to find that from both sides or all sides if numerous ones exist. I then look for Q & A;s and rebuttals and answers to rebuttals etc. I filter that out to my logical way of thinking. I even will make a line down the middle of a page and list pro and cons etc. Then weigh it out. Granted sometimes a pro or a con may weigh more than the opposing pro or con. Usually when I have done this. I have kept myself from making many mistakes as possible.
Best Wishes
Anyway, after the incident with my pastor in Lubbock. I refused to go to church for over 2 yrs. Now unlike most people though. I still didn't go wild and party etc. That just isn't the way I am. Due to me being very mathematical and logical. What I had seen through my life was that those that escaped through drugs or alcohol. It was temporary escape but didn't solve and often added to your problems and sure didn't solve any. My younger brother, UT alum, started drugs in 6th grade. I threw myself into sports. I was pretty good but had a career ending injury my junior yr and despite being asked to walk on at Tech anyway. My knee wouldn't allow me to do that. I was mad at God for that too. I didn't get to enjoy my Sr. yr playing. I had what is called the terrible triad and in 1970 it was impossible to come back from and even so today its still almost impossible. I had the Cowboy Dr. do my surgery but just too much damage.
During those 2 yrs I decided to check out other religions at first. I did for a little while. Yet then I soon realized something. Wait it really all boiled down to this one thing. I could save a lot of time. If Jesus was who He claimed to be. Then it meant Christianity had to be correct because if He was God of the triune Godhead, His Son. Then He couldn't lie and what He said had to be true. He was the only way. Telling the truth isn't narrow when its truth and esp if He has paid the price for you. Which I found to be true in my research.
Yet in the time I had been checking out other religions one thing I had noticed. Each one had a works type religion. I had to earn my way to heaven. But not a one of them ever told me the % it took of good vs bad to go to heaven. I think that is pretty important if I am to try and work my way to heaven. I mean is it 51 to 49 good vs bad. Yet what is defined as good or bad? When does the clock start. How do you truly calculate it, much less keep track of it? I mean does it start at a certain age, time of conversion, if so how do you deal with good vs bad prior to that conversion. What is the scale. Murder, Rape etc takes so many good deeds or what kind of deeds to even get to even much less to plus side. Is there an unforgiveable one. I just kept coming up with more and more questions and not finding the answers anywhere in their holy writings. Even in Quran at the end Allah decides even if you die in a holy war. There was no guarantee. So I decided to just go and really thoroughly check out Jesus. So if He was who He said. Which based on my life to that point seemed very unlikely. Then Christianity would be correct. Although at that time it just didn't seem possible.
So I dove in. To make a long story shorter. I was astounded at what I came back finding. I found there were many proofs not only Biblical but extra Biblical proofs of Jesus existence but to His death, burial and resurrection. There was a lawyer named Simon Greenleaf that wrote the Rules of Evidence that is still used today. He wrote it in 1800's. He was an atheist. His law school students challenged him to use his rules of evidence to prove or disprove Jesus fact or fiction. He took that challenge. He ended up writing a book about it. He became a great defender of the Faith and Apologetics for the Bible too as inerrant. I was shocked. The more I searched the more I found people that had gone to research to disprove but ended up believers. So I had to find out how someone so biased against something could be pursued against their will to come out on the opposite side. I kept on doing that. It overwhelmed me but was good.
Nowadays you have guys like Lee Strobel and Josh McDowell etc. So the evidence convinced me but I still had to deal with my personal heartache etc. Then I realized that God didn't create us as robots. He gave us free will choice. In so doing that means by using that free will many, including Christians, will be imperfect humans and hurt people they love or not and do bad things. God, in giving free will has to allow for bad things to happen or we no longer have free will. What He does offer is an inner support and peace that passes all understanding despite what all is going on in your life. I have so many personal stories since to validate that despite so many things happening in my life like the story of Job in the Bible that many know about. So in effect how could I expect perfection from someone else when I couldn't even offer them perfection from myself. Which means that the scars from that exist but don't rule me like they used to. I am no longer controlled by that anger and hurt. The greatest help I got from that was a book by Floyd McClung, Jr called "The Father Heart of God."
My wife and I have been married for almost 35 yrs. Our marriage motto is "Don't demand a perfection you yourself can't offer!"
So yes I found the Bible inerrant and due to my analytical brain I never bought into evolution in the first place. It never made sense to me. I always knew there had to be an ID. Now I am more and more convinced of that as my knowledge of science has greatly increased. Plus I have a second Masters. Plus we now have the internet which wasn't around when I was in college. In HS we still used Slide Rule. Simple adding calculators came out in college and cost over $100.00 that now we get for $5.00 or less. Now you get those graphing etc calculators for less than I could get just and adding subtracting one.
The point is now research is so much easier than going to a library like I had to do then. You can go to the internet. Look at various sites. Read the pros and cons and answers and rebuttals etc for all sides and then make a fully informed decision. Sadly today's educational system is teaching WHAT TO THINK AND NOT HOW TO THINK? That is a great heartbreak to me. I saw so much of that when I was coaching and teaching.
So I'd just recommend go into research openly and let each side of your research speak for itself. Even today I use the same method of research I did then. If I don't know how I feel about a topic. The first thing I look for is someone that once believed one way and then changed. I want to know what caused the change. If the change sounds legit to me and not hurt feelings but a sound reason I want to know what it was and why. I try to find that from both sides or all sides if numerous ones exist. I then look for Q & A;s and rebuttals and answers to rebuttals etc. I filter that out to my logical way of thinking. I even will make a line down the middle of a page and list pro and cons etc. Then weigh it out. Granted sometimes a pro or a con may weigh more than the opposing pro or con. Usually when I have done this. I have kept myself from making many mistakes as possible.
Best Wishes
Patriottechsan
Member
Astrophile I have no idea and it isn't really relevant to this. You just want to poke fun. But sadly it is at your expense. We are talking Origins and it matters not only on truth of how and why we are here but it matters on our worldview which matters in everything we do. You can keep ignoring all of those people but do so at your own risk since they have credentials way way above probably everyone on this board &/or thread. If they think its that important then I think it must be important enough to at least pay attention to it. But as with most on here you seem to think you are too smart for them and above them and don't need to pay attention. So be it. I know one thing. I personally wouldn't want to stand in front of all of those esteemed people and make fun of them like you are where you make fun of a problem with Darwinian science they think is serious enough to be addressed from all over the world but you pooh pooh.
You have some reading comprehension issues. He said "doubt the Christian God". He never made any statement about not liking God.
What subjects are your degrees in?
Not science, since you show no knowledge or aptitude for science.
Patriottechsan
Member
You guys have proven how dedicated you are to your brainwashing. You get a list from esteemed scientist from all over the world from world class Universities that recognize the problem you refuse to acknowledge as if you are so smugly smarter than all of them are. Then you won't even read real scientist explanations from former evolutionist that explain the science explanations. That is an incredible show of arrogance you don't deserve to show or have earned. They have earned respect and admitted what your lack of education you claim you know more than they do. Mankind claiming to be wise becoming fools,
That list is not about origins. It specifically refers to Darwin and describes the theory of evolution and natural selection. It never mentions origins anywhere on that list.
The people on that list can be ignored, because being on that list or not being on that list has no bearing on the validity of the theory of evolution. How can you not see this? How is this easily grasped concept beyond your ability to understand.
That list is a list of people that are publicly saying they are skeptical of the theory of evolution. They are not refuting the theory. They are not offering an alternative. That list means practically NOTHING.
So you cannot abide by common rules of debate. You provide no evidence or any kind of support for you claims. You repeat unsupported claims, refuted claims, misinformation, lies and personal attacks ad nauseam and then attack us again for not just mindlessly accepting everything you state without question. Sad. Really, really sad.
How do you know they are esteemed? That list does not include anything beyond a degree level, field and an institution name. It lists no accolades. You are making stuff up again.
The only represent about 0.016% of all US scientists. How smart does one have to be to have their name added to a meaningless list indicating they are skeptical? The least intelligent person on that list was able to do it.
I will tell you what an incredible show of arrogance is. Every post you have put on here.