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Evolution: Do you see the resemblence

and now we have three definitions provided by you.

They're not different definitions. The wording is different; not the meaning.


Now, I have a question for you which you have so far not even acknowledged, let alone answered: do you agree that the evidence for evolutionary change is conclusive, or not? I'm guessing not. In that case, how do you account for the fact that living organisms today are very different from organisms living in the distant past? How can they be different, if they have never changed?
 
Please note the part that I bolded in your post. In addition to the fact that you've disregarded the reference to inherited traits (incorrectly, IMO, since doing so changes the definition of the term), I think your apparent disregard of the last part of the definition may be at the root of the difficulties we're having in communicating together.


It might be simple... if you were to actually argue that.

But that is what I am arguing! Where have I argued anything different? I am merely saying that the evidence that organisms have changed over time is conclusive and inarguable. What particular statement have I made that would lead you to conclude otherwise.

The reference to inherited traits included in the Wikipedia article goes beyond what I am arguing; I'm not going beyond it.

ALL I AM SAYING IS THAT LIVING ORGANISMS HAVE EVOLVED OVER TIME, AND THAT THE EVIDENCE FOR THAT STATEMENT IS INESCAPABLE.
 
9/10: I just wanted to point out that we haven't actually gotten to the fossils yet, although anyone is welcome to cover that ground. So far we're still on DNA. I realize it's long thread, but I'm trying to eventually list all of the main sources of evidence, so I'm keeping track. It's just that there's so much of it....(hint, hint.)

Hey, I'm just trying to get them to agree that organisms have changed over time. I can't even seem to get people to agree to that, let alone any evidence supporting any particular proposed explanation for that change.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
They're not different definitions. The wording is different; not the meaning.
The last one you gave is quite different from the others... and, IMO, is generally correct, provided you include the parts that you apparently disregarded (i.e. "inherited traits", "from one generation to the next").
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Hey, I'm just trying to get them to agree that organisms have changed over time. I can't even seem to get people to agree to that, let alone any evidence supporting any particular proposed explanation for that change.
I think that practically everyone here would agree that organisms have changed over time. Similarily, I think you'll also find that practically everyone here would agree that this is not what you've asked everyone to agree with.
 
I think that practically everyone here would agree that organisms have changed over time. Similarily, I think you'll also find that practically everyone here would agree that this is not what you've asked everyone to agree with.

it's exactly what I have asked everyone to agree with. I have asked for nothing other than that evidence that organisms existed in the past which no longer exist today, and that organisms exist today which did not exist in the past, is evidence that life has changed over time.

That is all I have asked for agreement on. I have not asked for any agreement of any kind as to what caused that change. You can all think God comes in overnight and changes cats into something other than cats, and you will still not have to disagree with me.
 
And thus, they are all incorrect, self-serving, and meaningless.

And yet, somehow, no one has explained how or why they're wrong. Apparently not a single one of you can figure out the distinction between an observation, and a theory intended to explain that observation.

Maybe it's me, maybe I'm the idiot, but I would have thought such a distinction would be pretty easy to grasp.
 
The example you gave didn't show "them" being different; rather, it showed one thing and then a different thing. That's not the same thing.

Rabbits are not different from trilobites? I'm not saying, and have never said, the the trilobites today are different from the ones in the past, and I'm not saying, and have never said, that the rabbits from today are different from the ones in the past.

What I am saying, and which no one seems to get, is that the organisms alive today are different from the organisms that lived in the past, and vice versa. If that's not evidence that life has changed over time, I would like an example of what would be considered evidence that life has changed over time.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
What I am saying, and which no one seems to get, is that the organisms alive today are different from the organisms that lived in the past, and vice versa.
Gosh - that's a good one. One might even say that some animals alive today are different from other animals alive today. It's good to appreciate diversity.
 
Gosh - that's a good one. One might even say that some animals alive today are different from other animals alive today. It's good to appreciate diversity.

Then why do you keep disagreeing, if you think it's so obvious?

Or, and I'm beginning to think this is the case, do you deny that there are organisms in existence today that did not always exist?

You're sure sounding like you deny this, so if you don't, it would be nice of you to state so.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Rabbits are not different from trilobites?
As I said, they are different things.

I'm not saying, and have never said, the the trilobites today are different from the ones in the past, and I'm not saying, and have never said, that the rabbits from today are different from the ones in the past.
Okay, fine; that has nothing to do with what I said. I agreed that you didn't say that.

What I am saying, and which no one seems to get, is that the organisms alive today are different from the organisms that lived in the past, and vice versa. If that's not evidence that life has changed over time, I would like an example of what would be considered evidence that life has changed over time.
The thing is, if the particular life-form you chose as example has not changed within the context of your example, then no evolution has been demonstrated by your example. No demonstration, no evidence. That's all I'm saying, that's all I've been saying.

If we look at the entire set of life-forms then and now, and at stages inbetween (such as the fossil record), then we can begin to see a pattern of changes (series of changes). That is evolution taking place.

And if you get that, then you get frubals.
 
The thing is, if the particular life-form you chose as example has not changed within the context of your example, then no evolution has been demonstrated by your example. No demonstration, no evidence. That's all I'm saying, that's all I've been saying.

And that's exactly where you're wrong. We will likely never actually observe gross morphological change in real time. Macroevolution takes place far too slowly. We can infer that change by virtue of the fact that we can observe, through the fossil record, that different kinds of organisms have existed at different times throughout geological time. If that is what we see in the fossil record (and it is), then we can infer that the theory of evolution is correct.

By contrast, by the simple observation that different organisms have existed at different times, regardless of what relationship, if any, they have to each other, it is impossible to deny that life has changed with time. We do not actually have to witness that change, and we do not have to be able to tell which organisms changed into which.

If we look at the entire set of life-forms then and now, and at stages inbetween (such as the fossil record), then we can begin to see a pattern of changes (series of changes). That is evolution taking place.

And if you get that, then you get frubals.

You're still confusing evolution as observation with evolution as theory. If we can see intermediate forms in the fossil record, and we can, we can infer common descent with modification, the central tenet of evolutionary theory. That is still an inference; it is not an observation. Noting that there have been changes over time in organisms as evidenced by the fossil record is an observation.

I don't think you're ever going to get that.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
*blows police whistle loudly*
See that title below my name? That says I'm the Head Lesbian, which give me license to tell you all to sit down and be quiet. Thank you. Now would you all please stop this irrelevant bickering and get back to the matter at hand? As I was saying several pages ago...how about that DNA?
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
If we look at the entire set of life-forms then and now, and at stages inbetween (such as the fossil record), then we can begin to see a pattern of changes (series of changes). That is evolution taking place.
That isn't what you said or implied.
But now you are making a point that is evidence of evolution.

wa:do
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
*blows police whistle loudly*
See that title below my name? That says I'm the Head Lesbian, which give me license to tell you all to sit down and be quiet. Thank you. Now would you all please stop this irrelevant bickering and get back to the matter at hand? As I was saying several pages ago...how about that DNA?
Okay, mom.

I don't think you're ever going to get that.
Gladly so, then.
 
Well, now that we've apparently argued to a standstill, I'll like to repost an earlier post of mine that got lost in the shuffle, which dovetails with Autodidact's discussion of the DNA evidence for evolutionary theory:

The principal assertion evolutionary theory makes is that all life on earth is descended from one or a small number of universal common ancestors. The best summary I've ever read of the evidence supporting this assertion is contained in Douglas Theobald's "29+ Evidences for Macroevolution." While the Theobald article is a literature review and as such contains no original research, and has not undergone formal peer review, Theobald informed me in an e-mail dated Oct. 18, 2005:

I'm going to try to keep quoting from the article to a minimum, but I strongly suggest that anyone who is truly interested in the strength of the evidence supporting macroevolutionary theory read the article in its entirety. It's easily the project for a long weekend, if you read it thoroughly and carefully. If you want to follow up on the extensive references, you're probably look at more like a month's worth of reading.

Also, please do not point out that none of these lines of evidence are "proof" of evolutionary theory. There is no such thing as "proof" of evolutionary theory. Theories are not capable of being proven. Predictions a theory makes can be confirmed, or falsified. A successful prediction only means that the theory is correct so far. A falsified prediction means that the theory needs some working on, or if it is a significant failure, it may mean the theory needs to be abandoned.

But I will not respond to requests that evolutionary theory be proven. It cannot be proven, any more than any scientific theory can be proven.

So let's take a look at the first piece of evidence Theobald cites as evidence for macroevolution:

The Fundamental Unity of All Life

All living organisms essentially do the same things. They take reproduce themselves, either sexually or asexually, they impart inheritable information to their descendants, they catalyze chemical reactions, and they use energy to accomplish these tasks.

All living organisms use essentially the same biochemistry to perform these tasks. All living organisms use the same (or closely related) genetic code, the same (or closely related) amino acids, and the same (or closely related) metabolic pathways.

Since evolutionary theory proposes that all organisms are related by common descent from a universal ancestor, it predicts that all the biochemical means by which organisms perform these processes should be similar, and slight differences should be modifications of some ancestral form. Such a prediction is trivially falsifiable by a finding that various organisms use completely unrelated genetic codes, unrelated chemical catalysts, unrelated metabolic pathways, etc. That we do not find such unrelated biochemical systems is a confirmation of this prediction.

As an example, all living organisms that have ever been studied have been found to use adenosine triphosphate as a basic unit of energy storage. There are hundreds of different molecules that would serve equally well, yet all living organisms use this same molecule.

It can, of course, be argued that a creator being could use the same basic building blocks over and over: the concept of common design. This is of course, true, but it is also an unfalsifiable assertion. There is no necessity that a creator use the same basic biochemistry in all living organisms.

Logically, if hypothesis X predicts observation A, but would be falsified by observation !A, then observation A is evidence for hypothesis X, while observation !A is a falsification of X. Contrarily, if hypothesis Y predicts A, but would not be falsified by !A, then neither A nor !A is evidence for Y. Since special creation may predict a common biochemistry among all living organisms (common design) but could still accommodate widely varying biochemistries (because a sufficiently advanced creator could do so), neither observation is evidence for a special creation. On this particular matter, therefore, special creation makes no falsifiable prediction. An observation of a universal biochemistry cannot tell us whether or not life was specially created by an intelligent designer.
 
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