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Evolution has never been observed

Acim

Revelation all the time
I understand what jargon and mumbo-jumbo mean, and I understand the insult in being compared to the Book of Urantia. If you're not equipped to comprehend the evidence that the shared pseudogene represents for evolution by natural selection, that's no excuse for dismissing it in such a cavalier manner.

If I'm actually (physiologically) not equipped to comprehend it, then the term might not be appropriate for use, in at least one case. I would argue in the case of perhaps a great many, though perhaps we ought to conduct tests on me to see if I'm equipped to comprehend.

Since I do feel equipped to understand what is being purported, I will say that it shows up as jargon / mumbo-jumbo to me. As my previous post was also going directly at. I realize those familiar with these terms would perhaps feel a bit insulted. Maybe not, but I think anytime claim of 'jargon' is put forth, there is sensitivity to being insulted. And then when someone like me has nerve to add in "mumbo jumbo" the factor of insult goes up.

But I honestly get that from the material that is being presented so far. Why not cut through my rhetoric on what I'm saying in relation to understanding the material, and see if you can work from precisely where that literature (linked in OP) is coming from. I realize there is other material, but I chose this one as it was linked in another thread, and so far, it is a bit fun to go through it, and realize how ill equipped it is at explaining what I think it is attempting to explain. If you feel it is "well equipped" at explaining the concepts in way that is accessible to many, which is ultimately what the whole disagreement is over, than I would suggest you get in there, and help explain it.

If not, I'm okay with that. Your jabs (insults) at my intelligence are duly noted, but sorry if I don't just roll over and let you dish it out. I'm sure you'll be fine.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
You're not explaining how it is useful.

I have decent idea where this will go, but would like you to bring forth usefulness of TOE, and see if you can use resources in other thread to support this. (I think you may)
You need me to explain how specialized language is useful?

Do you really think that "broken arm" is as good as "spiral fracture of the distal radius" when it comes to fixing you up?

Or the use of the term hemoglobin instead of the generic term blood?

Or how genetics predicts your chances of having future illnesses?

wa:do
 

E. Nato Difficile

Active Member
Since I do feel equipped to understand what is being purported, I will say that it shows up as jargon / mumbo-jumbo to me.
I can't tell whether you're acting this obtuse on purpose, or whether you really can't understand any notion of empirical inquiry that doesn't depend entirely on Acim's willingness to engage with it. Either way it's kind of silly to keep pretending we can have an informed dialogue on the scientific method as it applies to species evolution.

-Nato
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
You need me to explain how specialized language is useful?

With TOE, more so, than other disciplines.

Do you really think that "broken arm" is as good as "spiral fracture of the distal radius" when it comes to fixing you up?

Yes.

Because within context of this discussion (which is whole sub forum of RF) we are talking about 'audience' and when doctor comes into explain what is wrong, she may say to me, "well Acim, turns out you have spiral fracture of the distal radius" and I may say, "I'm not sure what you just said, but how long do I have to live?" And she'll say, "well people live with broken arms a lot of the times. I'll go ahead and fix your arm, and you'll be fine."

Therefore, specialized language may be useful to her and her colleagues, but the terms are (clearly) jargon to those who also have reason to be 'in the know' with regards to the situation.

I do see this sort of thing on spiritual side of things, I would say a lot of the time. Where the jargon, that may be useful, helpful, understandable to those familiar with same doctrine, gets in the way when attempting to explain that to the uninitiated or, rest of humanity. In fact, I think vast majority of threads I see have this going on. Like some agnostic type asks question in vein of, "why did God create Satan" and you can have whole bunch of theist types respond, but ultimately the thread is destined to devolve into the jargon that (unnecessarily) predominates the conception of the terms. And thus those involved are essentially dealing with mumbo-jumbo. Not to them of course, but to the rest of us who may wish to learn, discuss and grow, it is in vein of, "either you read the doctrine we all are well equipped in understanding, or you are lacking something pretty valuable which makes your contributions unworthy of consideration in this discussion."

And that is almost exactly how TOE comes off. Terms like "ordinary means" wanna be tossed in, but then be stipulated in rather extraordinary ways. I call foul on that, and unless you want to join me in specifically understanding the literature, then perhaps reality we are dealing with is proponents of TOE are not really well equipped with explain this in ways that remotely resemble objectivity, and effective teaching.

Or the use of the term hemoglobin instead of the generic term blood?

Or how genetics predicts your chances of having future illnesses?

wa:do

Again, blood works more effectively for me.

Prediction of chances of having illness does very little for me, given parameters I'm aware. I find such predictions useless, while I'm sure there may be others who think it is utterly useful in terms of treatments (also which generally do very little for me).
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
I can't tell whether you're acting this obtuse on purpose, or whether you really can't understand any notion of empirical inquiry that doesn't depend entirely on Acim's willingness to engage with it. Either way it's kind of silly to keep pretending we can have an informed dialogue on the scientific method as it applies to species evolution.

Again, the claim of obtuse, given context of what this thread is about, which is noted in OP and a few times along the way, strikes me as 'going the other way.'

If you feel it is silly to think you can have informed dialogue on the topic of this thread, then I would suggest leaving, and not looking back. I'm sure I'll get over your absence. Do I wish you would leave? No. But your contributions so far have not been in looking at material noted in OP, and helping to make sense of it, and/or question it where legitimate questions could be asked.

I'll also just say that I feel I've been cutting a bit of slack the other way. So, if people reading this want to deal with something other than literature cited in OP, and noted in other thread, I'm not sure what purpose is for being on this thread. If it is to belittle the perceived intelligence / comprehension of someone that questions the fundamental assertions made with regards to TOE, then I'll just say this may be one of my last responses to that sort of post, in this thread. Perhaps you could start a side thread that tests my comprehension, my willingness to understand the topic directly, or what have you.

But what I've done in posts 7, 48, and 60 is what I intend to continue to do. If you care to chime in at that level, to explain something you feel I insensitively brushed over or poked a little to much fun at, I would honestly appreciate it. Though, I can't say I will defer only to your understandings, if certain points are being made as if they need to be accepted without logical reason to do so. Kinda like how in faith based discussions, little simple comments about deities aren't allowed to be slipped on in there as if they are to be unexplored. Some of what I've read so far in TOE literature is underpinnings to larger framework and I'm going head on with what that is saying rather than, "oh, I'll just sit here quietly and pretend this has vast amount of knowledge I must accept before I can ever philosophically discuss TOE with anyone."
 

E. Nato Difficile

Active Member
I'm not sure what purpose is for being on this thread. If it is to belittle the perceived intelligence / comprehension of someone that questions the fundamental assertions made with regards to TOE, then I'll just say this may be one of my last responses to that sort of post, in this thread. Perhaps you could start a side thread that tests my comprehension, my willingness to understand the topic directly, or what have you.
You may think you're just playing devil's advocate in a completely rhetorical debate, but in fact you're discussing a scientific theory which is supported by evidence from various disciplines. This evidence is often highly technical in nature. If you're not willing to make the effort to understand things like genetic evidence of shared pseudogenes (one of the most significant pieces of forensic evidence of common ancestry that exists), then that speaks volumes about your commitment to the issue as a whole.

-Nato
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
So, your argument is that we (biologists) aren't speaking to you in simple enough language in these discussions? Is that the point you are trying to make or did I miss it?

You would rather a "you arm is broken" version of the evidence?

wa:do
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
If you're not willing to make the effort to understand things like genetic evidence of shared pseudogenes (one of the most significant pieces of forensic evidence of common ancestry that exists), then that speaks volumes about your commitment to the issue as a whole.

And if you're willing to use straw man logic to make ridiculous points in this thread, that speaks volumes of your purpose for being in this thread.

I'm on p. 1 of first item cited as literature to read for TOE in another thread. I think I am demonstrating willingness to 'make effort to understand things.'

And in understanding things so far, I believe jargon and mumbo-jumbo is fair criticism. I realize you disagree, and you're still welcome to reference posts 7, 48, and 60 with where they are at, and help me understand whatever it is you think I am lacking willingness to understand.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
So, your argument is that we (biologists) aren't speaking to you in simple enough language in these discussions? Is that the point you are trying to make or did I miss it?

I think you missed it. The point(s) have been made several times in this thread. Harping on the jargon one is missing larger point.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Well I seem to be missing a lot in this thread. Can you give me a simple summery of your point?

wa:do

To have a discussion on the FAQs and tutorials on the Theory of Evolution as presented in another thread on this subforum.

And to have that discussion within the context of forum titled "Evolution vs. Creationism" plus within context of literature that may such things as: "Creationist arguments against evolution can sound so persuasive .. because they don't address evolution, but rather argue against a set of misunderstandings that people are right to consider ludicrous. The Creationists wrongly believe that their understanding of evolution is what the theory of evolution really says, and declare evolution banished. In fact, they haven't even addressed the topic of evolution.."

So, here I am addressing the topic of evolution. In case you've missed that, I've done it in posts #7, #48 and #60. And there will be more of that coming.

You are welcome to participate at that level and to help those 'not in the know' to understand better.
 

darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard
To have a discussion on the FAQs and tutorials on the Theory of Evolution as presented in another thread on this subforum.

And to have that discussion within the context of forum titled "Evolution vs. Creationism" plus within context of literature that may such things as: "Creationist arguments against evolution can sound so persuasive .. because they don't address evolution, but rather argue against a set of misunderstandings that people are right to consider ludicrous. The Creationists wrongly believe that their understanding of evolution is what the theory of evolution really says, and declare evolution banished. In fact, they haven't even addressed the topic of evolution.."

So, here I am addressing the topic of evolution. In case you've missed that, I've done it in posts #7, #48 and #60. And there will be more of that coming.

You are welcome to participate at that level and to help those 'not in the know' to understand better.

Lets not forget that creationists pick at topics within the scope of evolution without considering the effects that their arguement would have on life as we know it.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
So, picking up where post #60 left off.

Phylogenetic Species Concepts

There are several phylogenetic species definitions. All of them assert that classifications should reflect the best supported hypotheses of the phylogeny of the organisms.

One might think that to avoid claims of jargon, that one might define terms like "phylogeny." But that's okay, I'll go with what my computer dictionary says about phylogenesis:
> the evolutionary development and diversification of a species or group of organisms, or of a particular feature of an organism.

Again, this is being put forth as a way to define what constitutes a species, within context of speciation, and broader context of what is evolution (or perhaps more precisely, evolutionary theory).

Baum (1992) describes two types of phylogenetic species concepts.

1. A species is the smallest cluster of organisms that possesses at least one diagnostic character. This character may be morphological, biochemical or molecular and must be fixed in reproductively cohesive units. It is important to realize that this reproductive continuity is not used in the same way as in the BSC. Phylogenetic species may be reproductive communities. Reproductively compatible individuals need not have the diagnostic character of a species. In this case, the individuals need not be conspecific.

Questions I have from the above are: "smallest cluster of organisms" isn't clear to me. I want to (try and) relate it to say 'cats' as a species known to me, and understand how 'smallest clusters of cats' helps within above context?

The second underlined part seems to go directly back to folk definition with language of "must be fixed in reproductively cohesive units." Reproductive being I would say key word. If not really key, could we remove that or alter that key word and still have that statement make sense?

I don't know if I understand what is meant by "reproductively compatible individuals need not have the diagnostic character of species." I double checked meaning of conspecific, which means "(of animals or plants) belonging to the same species." So, what this is telling me is that "phylogentic species" are essentially exceptions to the rule found in folk definition of species, or perhaps more accurately, not the sort of organisms that laypeople generally run into, unless they have utensils and/or (controlled) environments in which to study 'atypical' forms of species.

Which, to me, does somewhat beg the question of 'what is it we are defining again?" That question though is rhetorical. And question I really have at this point is whether my understanding noted in previous paragraph is in line with what is being put forth, or if there is something I am overlooking, based on what is being said (in the literature, up to this point)?

2. A species must be monophyletic and share one or more derived character. There are two meanings to monophyletic (de Queiroz and Donoghue 1988, Nelson 1989). The first defines a monophyletic group as all the descendants of a common ancestor and the ancestor. The second defines a monophyletic group as a group of organisms that are more closely related to each other than to any other organisms.

My dictionary went with the first definition of monophyletic. I'll accept that there are two, though 2nd one seems like elaboration of the first, really elaborating on what common means. And first strikes me as attribute of species (interpretive assumption) rather than definition (conveyance of exact meaning). The term attribute and definition are similar, though I just wish to note that we are 'suddenly' in domain of accepting 'descendants of a common ancestor' as definition of species. Which from folk definition, I can relate, but from something that goes beyond that, and say further backwards, I am not clear how we got to this point other than throwing out a term, and hoping it would stick, without much question.

I will note that this is one of first times the material has provided meaning of a term (in this case monophyletic) and I do find that to be helpful in terms of getting around jargon being used to try and convey understanding.

A recently offered hypothesis suggests that phylogenetic species concepts and the biological species concept may be highly, if not completely, incompatible.

Hmmm, that seems to be saying a lot. I was actually getting to point in all these definitions of thinking, this is perhaps good for consensus, where we don't necessarily have to choose one definition at the expense of the others. That we could allow for all to exist as helping us get at 'what really is a species.' But this statement of "completely incompatible" would appear to refute that logic.

"Parallel speciation" has been defined as the repeated independent evolution of the same reproductive isolating mechanism.

I understand, I think, what is being stated here, but not sure how it fits in with defining species. Again, seems like either attribute of say speciation or abstract way of presenting the data. It could also be implying (I think) that there isn't necessarily one, single common ancestor.

An example of this may occur when a species colonizes several new areas which are isolated from, but environmentally similar to, each other. Similar selective pressures in these environments result in parallel evolution among the traits that confer reproductive isolation. There is some experimental evidence that this might occur (Kilias, et al. 1980; Dodd 1989). The implication of this is that biological species (as defined by the BSC) may often be polyphyletic. If this occurs in nature, it could undermine the usefulness of phylogenetic species concepts.

Well, I'm going to say it does occur in nature if it occurs in human experimentation. I wish there were reasonable way around that assertion, but I would say it would be illogical to consider otherwise. Therefore, if it does occur in experiments, it is plausible that phylogenetic species concepts may not be useful.

I don't know if it's just me, but concept of 'parallel evolution' would seem to have significant impact on evolutionary theory. Though to be fair, I'm a bit early in the whole process of thoroughly understanding this stuff, so perhaps a) parallel evolution is accepted as 'standard' or b) has refutation that I am not aware of at this point.

Why This is Included

What is all of this doing in a discussion of observed instances of speciation?

Very good question. Though I think I have ideas why. But you go ahead.

What a biologist will consider as a speciation event is, in part, dependent on which species definition that biologist accepts.

Well that seems fairly critical, and in vein of subjective.

The biological species concept has been very successful as a theoretical model for explaining species differences among vertebrates and some groups of arthropods. This can lead us to glibly assert its universal applicability, despite its irrelevance to many groups. When we examine putative speciation events, we need to ask the question, which species definition is the most reasonable for this group of organisms? In many cases it will be the biological definition. In many other cases some other definition will be more appropriate.

So, we fit the definition to match the data? Interesting.

I would say if a Creationist asserted something (exactly) along lines of, "you evolutionists seem to ask the question which species definition is most reasonable depending on group of organism. And then depending on the cases you come across, you apply a different definition." That would be met with, "where did you get that from, we don't do that. We are about using consistent, empirically evidential data and not something that is subjective to the experimenter. You really need to check your facts before you speak about that which you simply do not understand."

Personally, folk definition still strikes me as most reasonable, unless one is concerned with studying organisms that no one reading this comes into contact with outside of labs, or outside of using special (extraordinary) utensils.

Next up: The Context of Reports of Observed Speciations

...in my next post on this tangent
 

Krok

Active Member
Untrue. In my occupation, evolution has certainly been observed. In every rock ever investigated.

In the lowest strata, there's no life at all. In strata a bit higher, there's signs of organic activity. In strata a bit higher than that, we find fossils of prokaryotic organisms. In strata a bit higher than that, we find fossils of prokaryotic and eukaryotic organisms. In strata a bit higher than that, we find prokaryotic and eukaryotic and multicellular organisms, but no vertebrates. In strata a bit higher that that, we find fossils of prokaryotes and eukaryotes and multicellular organisms and fossils of vertebrates. In strata higher than that, we find all of the above and organisms like tetrapods. As you go higher in the strata, the fossils start resembling more modern organisms. As you go even further up in the strata, the organisms become even more modern, till you get fossils of modern organisms at the top. This has been observed and applies in every case ever observed. So, in my scientific field, evolution has not only been observed, but the Theory of Evolution has also been confirmed in every rock ever investigated.

It happened. Biologist and paleontologists, etc, are trying to find out how it happened. Not if it happened, but how it happened. There's no "if"'s. The "how" is getting investigated by scientists, not the "if"'s. Creationists do mislead people in pretending that the "hows" are the same as the"ifs". They're not. Scientists do the how's, not the if's.
 
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atanu

Member
Premium Member
Untrue. In my occupation, evolution has certainly been observed. In every rock ever investigated.

In the lowest strata, there's no life at all. In strata a bit higher, there's signs of organic activity. In strata a bit higher than that, we find fossils of prokaryotic organisms. In strata a bit higher than that, we find fossils of prokaryotic and eukaryotic organisms. In strata a bit higher than that, we find prokaryotic and eukaryotic and multicellular organisms, but no vertebrates. In strata a bit higher that that, we find fossils of prokaryotes and eukaryotes and multicellular organisms and fossils of vertebrates. In strata higher than that, we find all of the above and organisms like tetrapods. As you go higher in the strata, the fossils start resembling more modern organisms. As you go even further up in the strata, the organisms become even more modern, till you get fossils of modern organisms at the top. This has been observed and applies in every case ever observed. So, in my scientific field, evolution has not only been observed, but the Theory of Evolution has also been confirmed in every rock ever investigated.

Biology is trying to find out how it happened. There's no "if"'s. It happened. The "how" is getting investigated by scientists, not the "if"'s.

OP is not about questiong these observations.

I also agree to all these observations as I have observed all these. But examine the assertion "In the lowest strata, there's no life at all.". Should it not better read "In the lowest strata (oldest strata) there are no fossils?

In your statement you make an assumption: structutre= life. That is a supposition which is perpetuated.

On the other hand, i will like to say that it is life which continually gives rise to more and more complex structures. But science cannot work from this perspective, since science needs measurable things. My goal as a scientist is same and as a scientist I say :Yes. From no fossil to complex fossils through geological time proves evolution beyond doubt.

But my goal as a general enquirer goes along with the second line of thought that it is the 'unformed' life-force which brings in varieties of shapes and ever increasing specialisations in forms. THis has many practical benefits for my life and that cannot be subject of this thread.

The OP, I think, talks about bridging the understanding gap.

Just recorded here to generate a few thoughts.
 
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painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
So far all I'm getting from your posts are complaints about language in a particular article.
I'm not seeing you address the topic of evolution at all.

Right now, just saying "discussing the FAQ's" is far to vague to be useful. What exactly is it you want to discuss?

wa:do
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
OP is not about questiong these observations.

I also agree to all these observations as I have observed all these. But examine the assertion "In the lowest strata, there's no life at all.". Should it not better read "In the lowest strata (oldest strata) there are no fossils?

In your statement you make an assumption: structutre= life. That is a supposition which is perpetuated.

On the other hand, i will like to say that it is life which continually gives rise to more and more complex structures. But science cannot work from this perspective, since science needs measurable things. My goal as a scientist is same and as a scientist I say :Yes. From no fossil to complex fossils through geological time proves evolution beyond doubt.

But my goal as a general enquirer goes along with the second line of thought that it is the 'unformed' life-force which brings in varieties of shapes and ever increasing specialisations in forms. THis has many practical benefits for my life and that cannot be subject of this thread.

The OP, I think, talks about bridging the understanding gap.

Just recorded here to generate a few thoughts.
I thought that was what the OP was for too... and asked specifically if that is what it was. But I was given a pretty definitive "NO".

So, now I'm confused by the point of this thread and am seeking clarification.

wa:do
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Untrue. In my occupation, evolution has certainly been observed. In every rock ever investigated.

... you get fossils of modern organisms at the top. This has been observed and applies in every case ever observed. So, in my scientific field, evolution has not only been observed, but the Theory of Evolution has also been confirmed in every rock ever investigated.

You are a) saying it is observed and b) in every rock ever investigated.

Though not really explaining what is observed, nor accounting for why I don't see it in every rock I've investigated. But your claim is in every rock I've observed / looked at / investigated, I've seen it. Pretty nifty trick in logic being employed.

In every rock that's been looked at, God has been seen.

It happened. Biologist and paleontologists, etc, are trying to find out how it happened. Not if it happened, but how it happened. There's no "if"'s. The "how" is getting investigated by scientists, not the "if"'s. Creationists do mislead people in pretending that the "hows" are the same as the"ifs". They're not. Scientists do the how's, not the if's.

Perhaps the ifs need further justification? Further explanation. You don't have to do that here, because we already have enough material to walk us (or me and perhaps others) through the logic being used, but I'm going to say you have way under explained yourself, and 'pretending the hows are same as the ifs" is at core of the debate. When I say, "in every rock you look at, God is there (to be seen), and you say, something along lines of, "If God exists....," I can now return with, "Spiritual people are interested in how, not if. If has been established and need not be reviewed for those who are only wanting to mislead people from their lack of understanding, lack of belief. Spiritual people do the how and why, not the ifs."
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
You are a) saying it is observed and b) in every rock ever investigated.

Though not really explaining what is observed, nor accounting for why I don't see it in every rock I've investigated.
Because you're either biased or uneducated with regards to archaeology or geology?

*shrug* Just a possibility.
 
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