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Evolution is not atheistic

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
I tend to think of "free will" as more deliberative decision making.

Actually learning to stop and internally debate a decision before making up your mind. Essentially the ability to talk yourself out of your first instinctual response.

wa:do
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
"believe that the problem with promoting the theory of evolution"

What? The evolution question is a done deal, its the details being worked out.
Sure, it's a done deal, but what I'm talking about are the reasons why it runs against the intuitions of people who are unfamiliar with any of the science. There is an intuitive expectation that everything has its own essence and makes people all different and dogs different from cats, and that is probably a key factor in the resistance of the evolution of life from common ancestors.

The intuitive responses that lead to the assumptions of vitalism were presented in a fun way by research psychologist - Bruce Hood, in a demonstration he did in some open lectures described in the bookSuperSense: Why We Believe in the Unbelievable .
In brief, in the demonstration, a couple of items were passed around in the audience; of the first -- they were informed that it was a fountain pen that belonged to Albert Einstein; and the group crowded around it and wanted to hold it like it was a magical talisman. The 2nd was a cardigan sweater, and were not told about it's origins, but that it was free to anyone who wanted it, and a show of hands was called to determine who to give it to. But, on the screen behind the Professor, the image of the infamous British serial killer - Fred West, was flashed on the screen, and they were told that it had belonged to him. Needless to say, the hands immediately went down in an involuntary jerking and revulsion, even before the connection between the killer and the cardigan was made clear to them.

Now, the difference between this educated student audience, and a primitive tribe in New Guinea, would be that none of the students might be interested in the sweater, but they would rationalize away their response as an illogical reaction, and agree that a sweater could not contain the essence of the owner; whereas the tribe in New Guinea, following the intuitions that have informed every major religious viewpoint in the world, would still declare the cardigan as an evil talisman that had to be burned to take away the evil spirits it contained within it.

The challenge for any science educators teaching evolution, modern medicine, quantum mechanics or some basics on cosmology, is that the average person probably leans more heavily on an intuitive sense to understand subjects that are out of their league, than they do in going with the basics from science. The science may be settled, but every science educator I've heard speak to a public forum, is always confronted with retreaded objections about "why are monkeys still here if we evolved from monkeys?" The divide between how evolution should be taught to the public, hinges on the core issue of whether scientists should be trying to tear down religion and openly stating that evolution cannot be harmonized with a religious viewpoint (Dawkins) or that if religious adherents do not see a conflict between believing in their religion and accepting evolution, then the educators should back off and not criticize their religious views (NCSE). Personally, I think the latter approach makes a lot more sense, because science is a lot harder to grasp than religion, and will have a much more permanent hold on the way most people want to deal with life than science will, which could just as easily disappear again in another dark ages.

I study a lot of neuroscience. There is whats called a "second brain" in the gut called the enteric nervous system that helps "shape" emotions.

However, the brain is in charge, even though it gets the feedback from other systems.
I know there are intense debates with proponents of embodied cognition, but that's a debate which is out of my league. My acceptance of the general ideas behind embodiment likely stems from having read their books first.


"Advances in brain imaging techniques such as positron emission tomography (PET), single photon emission computed tomography (SPECT), and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), along with electro-encephalography (EEG), an earlier technique for monitoring brain activity are enabling scientists to produce remarkably detailed computer-screen images of brain structures and to observe neurochemical changes that occur in the brain as it processes information or responds to various stimuli and the formation of emotions ranging from love and lust to anger and disgust. "
One of the criticisms of studies on neuro-correlates with conscious mental activity from the proponents of free will and a few dualist models, is that brain imaging does not show brain function directly: fMRI and SPECT just show where the blood is flowing to and from, indicating approximate brain areas which are being utilized. But new technologies that can analyze the neuro-electric and neuro-chemical responses of the neurons would seem to be direct proof of what the neurons are actually doing during mental activities.
[FONT=Palatino Linotype,Palatino][FONT=Palatino Linotype,Palatino]So we left dualism and now use the biopsychosocial model of illness and disease which is more holistic and helps to explain how the systems work together.
[/FONT]
[/FONT]
In philosophy of mind, there still are property dualists, most notably David Chalmers, who have a dualism that is compatible with a materialist or holist understanding of mind and brain, but claim each atom or some shard of the material universe must have some sort of rudimentary property of consciousness to allow for the personal, interior aspects of individual consciousness....or that's how Chalmers presents it in his problem: The Philosopher's Zombie I don't know if there is an actual problem of explaining the personal feeling of consciousness, but property dualism does not make claims that can be refuted by evidence from neuroscience so far, like substance dualism.
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
Hopefully we get a responce on who they are?


FYI However as these are interesting and go over some how the mind/body are working.

Neuroscience, free will and determinism: 'I'm just a machine'

Our bodies can be controlled by outside forces in the universe, discovers Tom Chivers. So where does that leave free will?


Neuroscience, free will and determinism: 'I'm just a machine' - Telegraph


Neuroscience Challenges Old Ideas about Free Will

Celebrated neuroscientist Michael S. Gazzaniga explains the new science behind an ancient philosophical question

Neuroscience Challenges Old Ideas about Free Will: Scientific American
I read the first page of that interview with Michael Gazzaniga, but forgot about the rest. The free will proponents are still stuck on this idea that our intuitions about the self can be taken as a given, while the research on consciousness has consistently presented the same message since Benjamin Libet first started designing studies of volition and intentionality: that our "will" to perform an action occurs after significant, identifiable brain activity and not preceeding it.

The takeaway from studies of volition lead to the conclusion that our sense of self is a product of brain function, which has designed a conscious experience that makes us think we have a unified mind that controls a physical body. The conscious experience likely is created to give a big, complicated physical machine an emotional sense of concern for the safety and wellbeing of the material body, and would not have existed without a conscious sense of mind acting in a unified manner.
 

Tathagata

Freethinker
Evolution is compatibal with only non-Abrahamic theist/deist beliefs because evolution contradicts Genesis
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
Evolution is compatibal with only non-Abrahamic theist/deist beliefs because evolution contradicts Genesis

Not entirely true. There are many who accept Genesis as allegory. Seeing "days" referring to eons and eras, over millions and billions of years.
 

Tathagata

Freethinker
Not entirely true. There are many who accept Genesis as allegory. Seeing "days" referring to eons and eras, over millions and billions of years.

Even if that were true, changing days to mean some long period of time doesnt change the fact that its descriptions and sequence of events are off. Genesis says God made Adam from dirt. Evolution says man arose after thousands of years of genetic mutations which eventually mutated into man. Those are not compatible views, they are competing views. Also, you would have to accept we are still living in Genesis to believe evolution is compatible, but clearly were long past Genesis, all you have to do is turn the page to the next chapter and those event supposedly already occured.


.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
Even if that were true, changing days to mean some long period of time doesnt change the fact that its descriptions and sequence of events are off. Genesis says God made Adam from dirt. Evolution says man arose after thousands of years of genetic mutations which eventually mutated into man. Those are not compatible views, they are competing views. Also, you would have to accept we are still living in Genesis to believe evolution is compatible, but clearly were long past Genesis, all you have to do is turn the page to the next chapter and those event supposedly already occured.


.

Do you not understand what "allegory" means?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Evolution is compatibal with only non-Abrahamic theist/deist beliefs because evolution contradicts Genesis


many of the abrahamic faiths understand allegory to mean there are important lesson in these early legends and do not look at them as literal accounts.
 

Tathagata

Freethinker
Do you not understand what "allegory" means?

What is Genesis an allegory for? So does Genesis mean "The Lord created the heavens and earth, created the animals, created man from dirt, woman from rib, but never mind all that. I'm not literally serious! I meant that God didnt do anything I just claimed he did. God didn't create Adam from dirt, God created a tiny microscopic organism which actually evolved over millions of years."

C'mon, get real. You know the allegory claim is nonsense, indefensible, and incoherent.

What is "Eve came from Adams rib" an allegory for? Nothing! It has no deeper meaning thsn the blatant meaning on the surface.


.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
What is Genesis an allegory for? So does Genesis mean "The Lord created the heavens and earth, created the animals, created man from dirt, woman from rib, but never mind all that. I'm not literally serious! I meant that God didnt do anything I just claimed he did. God didn't create Adam from dirt, God created a tiny microscopic organism which actually evolved over millions of years."

C'mon, get real. You know the allegory claim is nonsense, indefensible, and incoherent.

What is "Eve came from Adams rib" an allegory for? Nothing! It has no deeper meaning thsn the blatant meaning on the surface.


.
:facepalm:
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
Sure, it's a done deal, but what I'm talking about are the reasons why it runs against the intuitions of people who are unfamiliar with any of the science. There is an intuitive expectation that everything has its own essence and makes people all different and dogs different from cats, and that is probably a key factor in the resistance of the evolution of life from common ancestors.

The intuitive responses that lead to the assumptions of vitalism were presented in a fun way by research psychologist - Bruce Hood, in a demonstration he did in some open lectures described in the bookSuperSense: Why We Believe in the Unbelievable .
In brief, in the demonstration, a couple of items were passed around in the audience; of the first -- they were informed that it was a fountain pen that belonged to Albert Einstein; and the group crowded around it and wanted to hold it like it was a magical talisman. The 2nd was a cardigan sweater, and were not told about it's origins, but that it was free to anyone who wanted it, and a show of hands was called to determine who to give it to. But, on the screen behind the Professor, the image of the infamous British serial killer - Fred West, was flashed on the screen, and they were told that it had belonged to him. Needless to say, the hands immediately went down in an involuntary jerking and revulsion, even before the connection between the killer and the cardigan was made clear to them.

Now, the difference between this educated student audience, and a primitive tribe in New Guinea, would be that none of the students might be interested in the sweater, but they would rationalize away their response as an illogical reaction, and agree that a sweater could not contain the essence of the owner; whereas the tribe in New Guinea, following the intuitions that have informed every major religious viewpoint in the world, would still declare the cardigan as an evil talisman that had to be burned to take away the evil spirits it contained within it.

The challenge for any science educators teaching evolution, modern medicine, quantum mechanics or some basics on cosmology, is that the average person probably leans more heavily on an intuitive sense to understand subjects that are out of their league, than they do in going with the basics from science. The science may be settled, but every science educator I've heard speak to a public forum, is always confronted with retreaded objections about "why are monkeys still here if we evolved from monkeys?" The divide between how evolution should be taught to the public, hinges on the core issue of whether scientists should be trying to tear down religion and openly stating that evolution cannot be harmonized with a religious viewpoint (Dawkins) or that if religious adherents do not see a conflict between believing in their religion and accepting evolution, then the educators should back off and not criticize their religious views (NCSE). Personally, I think the latter approach makes a lot more sense, because science is a lot harder to grasp than religion, and will have a much more permanent hold on the way most people want to deal with life than science will, which could just as easily disappear again in another dark ages.


I know there are intense debates with proponents of embodied cognition, but that's a debate which is out of my league. My acceptance of the general ideas behind embodiment likely stems from having read their books first.



One of the criticisms of studies on neuro-correlates with conscious mental activity from the proponents of free will and a few dualist models, is that brain imaging does not show brain function directly: fMRI and SPECT just show where the blood is flowing to and from, indicating approximate brain areas which are being utilized. But new technologies that can analyze the neuro-electric and neuro-chemical responses of the neurons would seem to be direct proof of what the neurons are actually doing during mental activities.

Had you heard of or watch the Vilayanur Ramachandran videos?

"Vilayanur Ramachandran has been called a Sherlock Holmes of neuroscience. Director of the Center for Brain and Cognition at the University of California, San Diego, and adjunct professor at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies in La Jolla, California, Ramachandran has brilliantly sleuthed his way through some of the strangest maladies of the human mind. "

Take some time and go back and check out both the free will papers. The brain fires before actions are taken and a person is conciously aware for one. Free will seems to be an illusion.

Actually the Pet and FMRI work well in understanding brain function and how the brain is working in orchestration even though there are specific areas of the brain that carry out specific tasks. The FMRI and PET are tools used along with other methods. Conciousness has parts to it. They know this from brain damage and from different brain conditions as well.

The brain imaging was not really about the free will however, but where all emotions are coming from and we know quite a bit although not all about neurotransmitters and the brain.

As I also mention the brain in the gut or second brain has 100 million nerve fibers as many as the spinal cord and has all the neurotransmitters the brain has within it. In fact 95% of your bodies serotonin is produced in the gut.


The brain is in charge for sure, no brain function no mind.


The Electric Brain

  • Posted 10.23.01
  • NOVA
How does a three-pound mass of wet gray tissue (the brain) succeed in representing the external world so beautifully? In this interview with noted neuroscientist Rodolfo Llinás of the New York University School of Medicine, find out how the rhythm of electrical oscillations in the brain gives rise to consciousness, and how failures in this rhythm can lead to a variety of brain disorders.


Why brains are important

NOVA: Let's start by talking about why one needs a nervous system—or a brain—in the first place.

Rodolfo Llinás: That's a very intriguing issue. The nervous system is about 550 million years old, and it first came about when cells decided to make animals. Basically there are two types of animals: animals, and animals that have no brains; they are called plants. They don't need a nervous system because they don't move actively, they don't pull up their roots and run in a forest fire! Anything that moves actively requires a nervous system; otherwise it would come to a quick death.
Why would it die if it didn't have a nervous system?

Because if you move, the variety of environments that you find is very large. So if you happen to be a plant you have to worry only about the very small space you grow into. You don't have to do anything other than maybe move up and down. And you're following the sun anyhow, so there is no planned movement, and therefore there is no necessity to predict what is going to happen if, which is what the nervous system seems to be about. It seems to be about moving in a more or less intelligent way. The more elaborate the system, the more intelligent the movement.
So you need a nervous system in order to be able to predict the future?

Yes, and in order to predict you have to have, at the very least, a simple image inside that tells you something about the purpose of the outside world. That is common to all nervous systems of all forms that we know of. Each animal has a different universe—the universe it sees, the universe it feels, the universe it tastes. Earth probably looks very different not only for all of us as individual humans, but also for different animals.
"We assume we have free will, but we don't"
How does consciousness come into this view of the brain? Is consciousness a mysterious phenomenon, in your opinion?

I don't think so. I think consciousness is the sum of perceptions, which you must put together as a single event. I seriously believe that consciousness does not belong only to humans; it belongs to probably all forms of life that have a nervous system. The issue is the level of consciousness. Maybe in the very primitive animals, in which cells did not have a single systemic property—in which each cell was a little island, if you wish—there may not have been consciousness, just primitive sensation, or irritability, and primitive movement. But as soon as cells talked to one another there would be a consensus. This is basically what consciousness is about—putting all this relevant stuff there is outside one's head inside, making an image with it, and deciding what to do. In order to make a decision you have to have a consensus.
But it all just boils down to cells talking to one another?

Some people believe we are something beyond neurons, but of course we are not. We are just the sum total of the activity of neurons. We assume that we have free will and that we make decisions, but we don't. Neurons do. We decide that this sum total driving us is a decision we have made for ourselves. But it is not.

NOVA | The Electric Brain

I highly recommend reading the whole article above, especially on Consciousness interrupted and How else can consciousness get damaged?

The scientific theory of Evolutionary of course has nothing to do with any religion.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
What is Genesis an allegory for? So does Genesis mean "The Lord created the heavens and earth, created the animals, created man from dirt, woman from rib, but never mind all that. I'm not literally serious! I meant that God didnt do anything I just claimed he did. God didn't create Adam from dirt, God created a tiny microscopic organism which actually evolved over millions of years."

C'mon, get real. You know the allegory claim is nonsense, indefensible, and incoherent.

What is "Eve came from Adams rib" an allegory for? Nothing! It has no deeper meaning thsn the blatant meaning on the surface.


.
Can you not see deeper than the surface of anything? There is plenty to take as allegory. In fact, most mythology has much greater meaning as allegory than if taken literally. And actually, Eve coming from Adam's rib can quite easily be taken as to mean that a man's wife is a part of him, an extension, to walk side-by-side with, as equals. To come from "the dirt" can simply mean to be born of this Earth. To live and die tilling and working the land and taking from it that which is needed to survive. There are many ways to take myth as allegory that speaks to mankind. Why must it be literal to mean anything?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
What is Genesis an allegory for? So does Genesis mean "The Lord created the heavens and earth, created the animals, created man from dirt, woman from rib, but never mind all that. I'm not literally serious! I meant that God didnt do anything I just claimed he did. God didn't create Adam from dirt, God created a tiny microscopic organism which actually evolved over millions of years."

C'mon, get real. You know the allegory claim is nonsense, indefensible, and incoherent.

What is "Eve came from Adams rib" an allegory for? Nothing! It has no deeper meaning thsn the blatant meaning on the surface.


.


knowledge is king

Allegorical interpretations of Genesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

An allegorical interpretation of Genesis is a reading of the biblical Book of Genesis that treats elements of the narrative as symbols or types. For example, Genesis 3 introduces a talking serpent, which many Christians understand to be Satan in disguise. This symbolism is accepted even by Christians who believe the story as a whole is based on a historical event.[1] Many Christians in ancient times regarded the early chapters of Genesis to be true as both history and allegory.[2]
Genesis is part of the canonical scriptures for both Christianity and Judaism, and thus to believers is taken as being of spiritual significance. The opening sequences of the book tell the biblical story of origins. Those who read Genesis literally believe that it teaches the creation of humanity and the universe in general in a timeframe of six successive days of 24 hour durations. Those who favor an allegorical interpretation of the story claim that its intent is to describe humankind's relationship to creation and the creator.
Some Jews and Christians have long considered the creation account of Genesis as an allegory instead of as historical description, much earlier than the development of modern science. Two notable examples are Augustine of Hippo (4th century) who, on theological grounds, argued that everything in the universe was created by God in the same instant, and not in six days as a plain account of Genesis would require;[3] and the 1st century Jewish scholar Philo of Alexandria, who wrote that it would be a mistake to think that creation happened in six days or in any determinate amount of time.[4]
 

Vger

seeker of knowledge
That depends entirely on the deity in question. For many deities, it's just not true. For instance, ToE makes many claims about a creator-God who poofed all species into existence at the beginning of the world in their current form.


But you said something more: that evolution is not "against god". This is sometimes true, but sometimes not. Again, it depends on the god in question.

It's certainly not true that each and every theist can accept all of evolution without modifying their ideas about god(s).
A theist or an atheist should not accept all of evolution as it sets anyway. I do believe that there is evidence that leans that way but I think it is wise to be a skeptic about everything being it seems that everything changes as we gain new knowledge.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
A theist or an atheist should not accept all of evolution as it sets anyway. I do believe that there is evidence that leans that way but I think it is wise to be a skeptic about everything being it seems that everything changes as we gain new knowledge.

Evolution is change. ;)

But the scientific theory of it won't be abandoned for another theory, just modified.
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
What is "Eve came from Adams rib" an allegory for? Nothing! It has no deeper meaning thsn the blatant meaning on the surface.

Have you never read this quote?

"God did not take Eve out of Adam's head that she might rule over him or to be superior to him. Nor did God take Eve out of Adam's feet to be trampled upon by him or that she might be lower than him. But God took Eve out of Adam's side that she might be his equal, and from under his arm that she might be protected by him, and from close to his heart that she might be loved by him."

I'm afraid I cannot find the author or where it's from, but I do think it's a beautiful allegory for the meaning of why the rib.
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
Evolution is compatibal with only non-Abrahamic theist/deist beliefs because evolution contradicts Genesis
I am not all that familiar with Eastern religions, but as long as their are Western converts to Hinduism like Michael Cremo, writing Hindu creationist books, that is a false claim.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
I am not all that familiar with Eastern religions, but as long as their are Western converts to Hinduism like Michael Cremo, writing Hindu creationist books, that is a false claim.
OK, I think Tath is wrong as wrong can be, but what you just said doesn't argue against him.
 
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