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Evolution, maybe someone can explain?

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
If there are not an infinite number of defined words, then how would it matter that an infinite number of definitions could be applied to each word. Why bother reading some old Funk and Wagnals? If there are an infinite number of definitions for every word, then a dictionary would be rendered useless in general and only work when it is agreed to as the sole basis of a conversation. Given that there are a finite, but functionally large number of dictionaries available, what would make one better than the others and of course, you would have to waste time arguing which should be the one.

Why not just used the common parlance of the subjects in question and provide specific meaning to words where that meaning is outside the commonality.

Go on and on and on about infinite numbers of definitions doesn't provide definitions in the context, explain or support anything. It seems like a diversion to avoid acknowledgement of the fact that most of us are using the words as they are defined in science or explaining the definitions being applied. If most of us can do that, I don't see any reason all of us can't do that.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
Since there are experiments that support the theory of evolution and many of us have provided references to that effect, I wonder why some people keep persisting in the demonstrated incorrect claim that no experiment supports the theory.

It is as if the effort showing these experiments is ignored for no good reason. It is almost as if those claiming that no evidence exists don't care what others have to say and aren't interested in evidence that contradicts them.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
There was no way around the needed components. However, a log of changes like boiler/ air conditioner upgrades or new sources for food could be critical. When the experiment started the food likely came from Ohio IMS but later it no doubt came from China so only God knows what was in it.

Many little changes occur over the years. Maybe in later years there are LED lights instead of florescent. I looked briefly to see if any specifics were listed and found nothing. I believe, I would expect e coli to have significant changes to many stimuli. But again the experiment is highly interesting and more relevant than most of the garbage people want to use to support Darwin.

If there is any exposure to ambient light then the life cycle of an individual tree outside the lab could cause profound changes to the experiment.

If these were elephants such concerns would be picking of nits but these are tiny little germs that would be lost on a nit.
There's no way out. When I look around I see my apartment. I did not see the builders build it, but I'm pretty sure they did. I'm also pretty sure you would agree. :) On the other hand, if a person is dead, he would not be conscious of anything in him or around him.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Again fish is a coloquial term , a fish is whatever we decide is a fish ..... There is no objective reason for why we call tuna eels and sharks fish and whales and dolphins none fish



I can give you an example of a member of a paraphilic group evolving in to a an other group and then back to the original .


But no in the specific case of tetrapods there are none that have evolved in to fish (yet)
So your answer is no, I can't give such an example even though I happily continue to claim there are such examples. :shrug:
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Again we decided to use the word "dinosaur" to describe the clade that includes trex birds etc...

We could have chosen any other word

Another word, yes. The definition would remain the same.
What makes a dino a dino (or a gooblypok a gooblypok if we would have used that word) would remain the same.
And birds would still fit that criteria.

That birds and dino's belong to the same clade, is not a matter of semantics.

True but strawman I never said the opposite
If what you are saying amounts to nothing more then the choosing of the word dino being a matter of semantics / labeling, then sure.
I didn't assume that's what you meant, because that seems like a completely meaningless thing to say.
So you were just stating the obvious then?

As in: we could have called a table a chair and a chair a table. It's just "semantics", even though it wouldn't change what a chair or table *is*

Well, big whoop
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Why would they predic to find tikalik in in 375 million year old layers if we know that tetrapods evolved long before that ?
It's explained in the video, by the man himself who did the prediction.

Watch it, if you are actually interested. It's only a couple minutes and deals exclusively with the quest to find tiktaalik.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Another word, yes. The definition would remain the same.
What makes a dino a dino (or a gooblypok a gooblypok if we would have used that word) would remain the same.
And birds would still fit that criteria.

That birds and dino's belong to the same clade, is not a matter of semantics.


If what you are saying amounts to nothing more then the choosing of the word dino being a matter of semantics / labeling, then sure.
I didn't assume that's what you meant, because that seems like a completely meaningless thing to say.
So you were just stating the obvious then?

As in: we could have called a table a chair and a chair a table. It's just "semantics", even though it wouldn't change what a chair or table *is*

Well, big whoop
That birds and dino's belong to the same clade, is not a matter of semantics.

Again I didn't say the opposite. Stop making things up



So you were just stating the obvious then?
Yes as I made it very clear in my first comment on the topic

For some reason you have an obsession of disagreeing just for the sake of disagreeing. Even with the very obvious stuff
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
It's explained in the video, by the man himself who did the prediction.

Watch it, if you are actually interested. It's only a couple minutes and deals exclusively with the quest to find tiktaalik.
More of you dishonest stuff


It is obvious that
1 you agree with me

2 you have some strange pathology where you like to disagree just for the sake of disagreeing

3 therefore you keep referencing a video that doesn't explain nor even deal with my question
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
That is a dishonest move to the goal post ....


I never affirmed that there are true examples of tetrapods evolving in to fish ...
You have yet to give an example of what you claimed.
So far, all you've done is repeated your claim that you have such examples.

And the topic is from tetrapods to fish, but whatever.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Again I didn't say the opposite. Stop making things up

Cool. Then what you said was needlessly ambiguous as well as completely meaningless also.

Yeah, sure, uhu.... the one who came up with the label "dinosaur" could have used another word instead of "dinosaur".
Big whoop. Cool.

Would it have changed anything about what dinosaurs are and the criteria that defines them? NO.
So why even bring that up?

For some reason you have an obsession of disagreeing just for the sake of disagreeing. Even with the very obvious stuff
I wasn't the only one who "misunderstood" you.
Maybe the problem isn't me and instead just the way you communicated it very ambiguously.

Most likely we also assumed your ambiguous statement concerned the actual definition of "dino" and not merely the word "dino" because if it is actually about the word "dino" it was in fact indeed a completely meaningless "state-the-obvious" post.

"hey, instead of the word 'chair' they could have also used 'sitspot'... but they chose chair instead".

Uhu. Cool. I guess.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
More of you dishonest stuff


It is obvious that
1 you agree with me
no

2 you have some strange pathology where you like to disagree just for the sake of disagreeing

no
3 therefore you keep referencing a video that doesn't explain nor even deal with my question
I actually watched the video.
It is literally dedicated to explaining how and why they were looking for a fossil of that age, in that environment, with that anatomy

And your question is "why".
Who better to answer that question then the leading scientist of the search?

If you were really interested in the answer, you would be able to spare a couple of minutes to watch the video.
But it doesn't look like you're interested. You're only interested in making it look as if you are scoring debate points to inflate your ego.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
That is a dishonest move to the goal post ....


I never affirmed that there are true examples of tetrapods evolving in to fish ...

No, you have repeated the “what-if” claims that it should…that evolution that any marine mammals (eg whales) should evolve into fish, eg selective pressures should make them grow gills.

i flat out told that evolution doesn’t go backwards, I repeatedly gave you some real-world of aquatic (and semi-aquatic) mammals, aquatic reptiles, and even aquatic birds, have never reverted to being fishes, none of them grew gills, nor fins.

I even told you flat out - with some examples - that all fishes lay their eggs in water, but semi-aquatic reptiles (eg crocodiles, turtles) and birds (eg penguins) all lay their eggs on dry land, while all fully aquatic mammals (porpoises, dolphins & whales) and semi-aquatic mammals (eg seals, otters, hippopotamuses, etc), all grow their embryos & foetuses in wombs prior to live birth.

You have claimed that you refuted @TagliatelliMonster , but you haven’t. All you have done, repeatedly the same fabricated scenarios, that haven’t happened.

No mammals have become fishes, none mammals have become fishes by being born with gills. Your supposed refutation is based on claims that are no more than some repeated unsubstantiated assumptions.

Assumptions are not evidence, so you haven’t refuted anyone.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
ANY understanding of consciousness would lead to models such that individuals could see the specific differences in the consciousness of individuals in some species or individuals. We have no such understanding. No such models. And no such definitions.
Consciousness is inside the brain and not outside the brain. The current rules of science are too narrow to fully examine consciousness since the best data is hidden, from more superficial third person approach of the scientific method.

Say you were playing poker. Each top notch player is self trained to hide their tells. Tells are unconscious body language inductions, such as a touch or twitch, that may happen, involuntarily, but which betrays their intent. They practice in the mirror to control these, so someone on the outside; observers, cannot see. They also cannot read your mind. They are left in the dark even if good observers.

It is what is going I'm their mind, behind the veil, which science cannot see, is place where their consciousness lies. The best data would require asking them to self observe, internally. But not during the game. Science cannot successfully use a purely extroverted approach; only outside data, since people lie, hide and are even unconscious. The best data is missing from that approach.

Personally, I was interested in consciousness, and came to the conclusion that I needed to become both the scientist and the experiment, so I could induce my unconscious mind, and then observe things from the inside. From the outside, I may appear like I am just pondering, but actually my brain was very active as I am observing. You can learn much his way, and begin to unravel how the brain's operating system is set up.

Another analogy is any modern computer has software coding. The input and output interfac; hardware, is like a separate loop, that may not tell you enough about how the software is coded. However, it is that coding that is running the show. I may have software enhanced sound, but you cannot tell which software, based on the fidelity.

Science leaves out the software, since it is internal data and is called subjective. However, if you could go inside the computer and download the software and try to crack the code, you have all types of data that will never show up on the surface. It mostly works seamless behind the scenes, and we only see the tip of the iceberg on the surface.

Consciouness research needs an update in the scientific method to include internal data; coding or archetypes. Consciousness research needs consciousness, as the interface, behind the scenes, which is more than the senses. and body language output.

One of my first analogies for explaining the value of internal data, is having a tooth ache. If you never had a toothache, before, it may not be easy to fully grasp the pain, one with a toothache, feels on the inside. The outside drama; third person, looks bad, but that is not enough to infer full empathy. My approach was sort of like having my good tooth, drilled, and live in the moment of the pain. This data adds another dimension for a more 3-D view, that goes beyond simple sensory cause and effect of the third person. The natural brain output pain to consciousness to make it aware.

A person who is severely depressed, is not always easy to empathize with, since the surface we see does not reflect the inner agony to the point of 100% empathy. But that too is part of the consciousness experience, that science tries to avoid, to stay objective.

The practical problem with the internal approach, relative to the tooth ache pain, is being immerse, will make it harder to concentrate, such that the internal science observer, can become borderline semi-rational, and not as objective as sitting comfortably in the third person unaffected by the consciousness of full empathy. It does take training and hardening. At first you can sense yourself on a pendulum between the two centers of consciousness. Eventually the ego learns to stays objective, while the inner self slowly give up the operating system; archetypes. It may even rewire the ego, to have more access; go deeper and deeper; learn the coding language. It appears to be a natural evolving process led by consciousness in two directions; future direction of consciousness.
 
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