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Evolution, maybe someone can explain?

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't believe in fitness. Sure you can ask if Janice is fit for the big game Monday or if Bob will fit through the door but no such thing as "fitness" exists in change in species. Janice might not be fit for the game but is fit to to trigonometry. Individual differences matter but consciousness and its individual differences are important in speciation.
Do all individuals in a population reproduce? Do all individuals in a population reproduce the same numbers of offspring. Does the environment impact individuals in the population? Do all individuals in a population respond to their environments in the exact same way?

For example, if a portion of the human population is more susceptible to mumps, do they have a greater, a reduced or the same chance of reproducing than the remainder of the population that is less susceptible to the disease? Are there going to be as many offspring in a population from the susceptible phenotype undergoing mumps selection in subsequent generations?

Compare and contrast this to artificial selection where only those with a particular trait of interest are selected to reproduce. Here, humans assume the roll of nature in selection.
 
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Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
You might be surprised how closely I follow the scientific method.
The method you claim doesn't exist? How does one follow a method they do not believe exists.

Given what I've seen, I couldn't come up with anything you do that is consistent with the scientific method.
It's hard to see because almost all my work is anecdotal experimentation
There is no such thing. There is anecdotal observation. But I do think that you observe things, come up with some radical, untestable reason for what you observe and then declare that a fact.
often on the order of thought experiments as derived from thousands of scientific experiments done by others.
Thousands? Really? I'm not sure it is even one.
In more recent times there's a lot of historical study and the adoption of a second metaphysics.
Whatever. As meaningless today as the first time you declared that here.
The primary difference between our sciences is that I believe all experiments apply to all things all the time.
For whatever wild unsupported reason, you have claimed that many times.
I have come to believe that prediction is the touchstone of all science and ancient scientists were called something we mistranslate as "Prophets" and "Seers".
Whatever you mean by "ancient scientists" has not been established. It is meaningless to mention.
By modern scientific standards I have nothing but a bunch of hypotheses dressed up as a new paradigm but it is solid "theory" by the standards of ancient science.
Then stop telling us all wild, unsupported stuff as if it were fact.
All things affect all other things all the time and are dependent on all things that have already occurred or existed.
I accept this is part of your belief system. I have no idea about the validity of it or the value of it were it true. I can only see it as meaningless diversion offered as if fact.
This is like infinitely complex to the third power.
Whatever. Your quantification means nothing to me and tells me nothing.
Free will is a component of consciousness which exists in virtually infinite amounts in the universe.
A belief offered as a fact without any basis in evidence or reason.
All individuals are conscious and have free will with which they can affect anything within their life from a butterfly causing a hurricane in Haiti to bobcat causing an avalanche in the here and now.
More belief offered as fact without evidence.

The butterfly starting hurricanes is a metaphor. No one is claiming butterflies are the source of hurricanes anywhere. It is a metaphor describing trivial initial conditions that may have unpredictably significant impacts.

Are you claiming that butterflies starting hurricanes are not in the here and now in comparison to bobcats and avalanches that are. What possible value could this obtuse, meaningless claim have in the context of a discussion of science?
This is infinity raised to the infinite power.
You've been watching Forbidden Planet again haven't you.
Since it requires 42 x 10 ^ 799,999th power monkeys to write War and Peace you see why I just substitute "infinity" for the improbability of existence. This number is far larger than most peoples' conception of infinity. I might add I don't believe in "infinity" anyway. It is merely an artifact of the way we quantified the logic of reality as mathematics.
I have no idea and don't expect to gain any insight on this from anyone. It just seems like more belief levied as fact with numbers.
Reductionistic science always serves to hide this complexity when it's summarized for textbooks.
An opinion that join so many others of yours in never being substantiated or explained.
You can't put complex before students or rocket scientists because nobody can do complex.
I see gibberish.
So we look at one experiment at a time and apply one set of equations to every calculable question.
We? You aren't part of any science I know. You are just some guy that comes up with wild answer that evade the evidence and are then elevated to fact for no apparent reason.
We simply turn a blind eye to what we can't see and to the complexity.
I agree that you turn a blind eye to what is seen in favor of substituting what you believe as the answer.
We seek simple interpretations and this is what Darwin provided. Unfortunately he simplified reality all the way out of change in species.
Darwin provided a rational interpretation of an entire body of diverse evidence that seems to baffle and flummox you and lead to belief elevated to fact out of seeming personal desire to be seen as all knowing.

The theory of evolution explains speciation. It doesn't remove it or confuse it.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Do all individuals in a population reproduce? Do all individuals in a population reproduce the same numbers of offspring. Does the environment impact individuals in the population? Do all individuals in a population respond to their environments in the exact same way?

There are far more individual differences than are generally recognized. It's entirely possible that every gene in the genome creates a difference and it is certain that every experience of every individual affects what you call "fitness'. Experience expressed as behavior through consciousness in other species can be far more important to survival than any gift with which the individual was born. Old whales get old by having experience because they lose their stamina and the edge is removed from their strength and speed. Experience also tells the young where to go and when to go there. It tells everybody what to do because it is a major component of consciousness which drives behavior in every other species than what I call homo omnisciencis. While each individual of other species is almost a carbon copy of each other their consciousness is not. There are slight variations caused by happenstance, mutation, genetics etc but they each have different knowledge sets and these knowledge sets are influenced by genetics and experience. Remember other species model reality and their brain/ body is already a reflection of reality. Their language reflects this same reality and is specific to each species. Beavers don't do waggle dances and wolves don't chirp.

Your questions involve individual outcomes and outcomes aren't dependent so much on traits and characteristics as the luck of the draw. Of course, you believe the luck of the draw is determined by trats and abilities but I do not. If you twist my arm I might agree that all else being equal 100 fast rabbits have a better chance of surviving 100 foxes than 100 slow rabbits, but all else can never be equal. Throwing millions of foxes and millions of rabbits into the equation will not mean that the surviving rabbits are faster, smarter, or more alert. It just means rabbits taste good to foxes. You would have to analyze every single encounter between every fox and every rabbit as well as every near encounter to even begin to understand how "fitness" might not affect survivability. You'd have to rate tens of thousands of traits of both species and then define these traits in scientific terms. You've have to know how different traits interact and cancel one another. It would be staggeringly complex but then you would have the ability to predict which rabbits survive. With this knowledge you could then hypothesize that fitness leads to a gradual change in species.

There is no such thing as fitness however. We are simply observing the nature of some characteristics to work against specific genes in specific situations. If you give the amount of arsenic that's enough to kill mice to a population of mice then 50% will die. The ones left are resistant to arsenic. ...So? It doesn't mean the dead mice were less fit, it means they couldn't handle their arsenic. Nature might sometimes poison half her population but the effect on the genome is random. It might promote the faster or smarter but it might have the opposite effect or virtually no effect at all on most of those tens of thousands of traits. Those mice that survive if released back into the population will have virtually no effect on the genome.

Each individual needs to be healthy and conscious. With these tools with which almost every individual starts his life they each have an identical chance of success all else being equal. They will simply thrive under different conditions and those that do reproduce will also have fit off spring.

Yes! Different conditions are a given in the real world but the changes tend to be a random walk until something big happens. This means and the evidence shows that there is little or no change in species until something big happens. I belief these "big things" are general or specific bottlenecks. I believe major changes in species (speciation events) tend to be specific bottlenecks imposed on species where the survivors are selected for unusual behavior.

In effect this is what breeding and agriculture are "an artificial imposition of a bottleneck". All animals with undesired characteristics are excluded by definition and barbed wire; they may as well have all died. It is this understanding that created human agriculture thousands of years ago.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
No one is claiming butterflies are the source of hurricanes anywhere.

Of course they are. Do the math.

Reality itself is chaotic. Everything has repercussions. ...For want of a nail.

What would War and Peace have looked like Tolstoy had been sick the day they started teaching addition? How many more or fewer monkeys would be needed to type it out if he had been jilted by his first love? You want to perceive what happens at face value as destiny but everything has precedents. There had to be an apple tree to drop an apple on Newton's head. What are the odds of one just growing there and growing an apple in just the right spot and holding it until Newton came by?

The butterfly caused the hurricane as surely as warm moist air rising from the ocean causes it.

This is what every experiment shows.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Are you claiming that butterflies starting hurricanes are not in the here and now

Of course. A butterfly can't flap or blow a hurricane into existence. It requires all the proper conditions like air rising from the ocean and a butterfly having flapped its wings in China ten days earlier.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
There are far more individual differences than are generally recognized.
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.
It's entirely possible that every gene in the genome creates a difference and it is certain that every experience of every individual affects what you call "fitness'.
So we can add genetics to the ever growing list of things you don't know and understand. Different genes DO different things.
Experience expressed as behavior through consciousness in other species can be far more important to survival than any gift with which the individual was born.
Possibly, but that doesn't eliminate the validity of fitness or mean that some members of a population don't have a greater propensity of increased reproduction.
Old whales get old by having experience because they lose their stamina and the edge is removed from their strength and speed. Experience also tells the young where to go and when to go there. It tells everybody what to do because it is a major component of consciousness which drives behavior in every other species than what I call homo omnisciencis.
Why you bother to insist on using a seemingly made up and unrecognized taxon that neither explains nor demonstrates anything is a symptom of the problem here. I note also that the direction this meander is taking clearly indicates that you have no idea what biological fitness is or what it tells us.
While each individual of other species is almost a carbon copy of each other their consciousness is not.
Nonsense. This is just your typical baseless speculation raised up to fact once again.
There are slight variations caused by happenstance, mutation, genetics etc but they each have different knowledge sets and these knowledge sets are influenced by genetics and experience.
Yes, population have variation. That variation is expressed as fitness in the context of interaction with the environment. Fitness is not a personal judgement of the quality of an individual from a moral position.
Remember other species model reality and their brain/ body is already a reflection of reality.
How can I remember what is not an established fact anywhere in order to be remembered. Many living things don't have brains.
Their language reflects this same reality and is specific to each species. Beavers don't do waggle dances and wolves don't chirp.
More meaningless claims about things that are not established facts. I can say that rocks have ancient rock language and taught the bees their waggle dance if we are still playing this game of make **** up and call it reality.
Your questions involve individual outcomes and outcomes aren't dependent so much on traits and characteristics as the luck of the draw.
No. Sorry. These outcomes are dependent on the genetic variation of the population. Random events can intercede in specific examples, but that does not alter the outcomes and evidence from which fitness is found.
Of course, you believe the luck of the draw is determined by trats and abilities but I do not.
Stop telling me what I believe. How could you even know? It is not luck of the draw. As to what you believe, it is often all over the place but consistently at odds with evidence, experiment, logic or reason.
If you twist my arm I might agree that all else being equal 100 fast rabbits have a better chance of surviving 100 foxes than 100 slow rabbits, but all else can never be equal.
I could care less what nonsensical contrivances you might agree to in order to avoid a rational review of this and the recognition that you don't really have the knowledge or understanding to render informed opinions here.
Throwing millions of foxes and millions of rabbits into the equation will not mean that the surviving rabbits are faster, smarter, or more alert. It just means rabbits taste good to foxes. You would have to analyze every single encounter between every fox and every rabbit as well as every near encounter to even begin to understand how "fitness" might not affect survivability. You'd have to rate tens of thousands of traits of both species and then define these traits in scientific terms. You've have to know how different traits interact and cancel one another. It would be staggeringly complex but then you would have the ability to predict which rabbits survive. With this knowledge you could then hypothesize that fitness leads to a gradual change in species.
I just stopped reading. It seems like a self-serving rambling to no useful end.
There is no such thing as fitness however.
Fortunately, your erroneous declaration here has no impact on this.
We are simply observing the nature of some characteristics to work against specific genes in specific situations. If you give the amount of arsenic that's enough to kill mice to a population of mice then 50% will die. The ones left are resistant to arsenic. ...So? It doesn't mean the dead mice were less fit, it means they couldn't handle their arsenic. Nature might sometimes poison half her population but the effect on the genome is random. It might promote the faster or smarter but it might have the opposite effect or virtually no effect at all on most of those tens of thousands of traits. Those mice that survive if released back into the population will have virtually no effect on the genome.
If half of population succumbs to a toxin and the other half doesn't, it has been established that it is not random chance and there are actual reasons for such an outcome.

Are you just making this ramble up as you go. You speak as if you have this vast experience and body of knowledge from omniscience, when clearly you haven't the first clue.
Each individual needs to be healthy and conscious. With these tools with which almost every individual starts his life they each have an identical chance of success all else being equal. They will simply thrive under different conditions and those that do reproduce will also have fit off spring.

Yes! Different conditions are a given in the real world but the changes tend to be a random walk until something big happens. This means and the evidence shows that there is little or no change in species until something big happens. I belief these "big things" are general or specific bottlenecks. I believe major changes in species (speciation events) tend to be specific bottlenecks imposed on species where the survivors are selected for unusual behavior.

In effect this is what breeding and agriculture are "an artificial imposition of a bottleneck". All animals with undesired characteristics are excluded by definition and barbed wire; they may as well have all died. It is this understanding that created human agriculture thousands of years ago.
You spent all this time writing this and didn't really address anything in my post. I have come to conclude that you don't give a **** what anyone posts and could care less what they say. What I think you feel is important is that you get your declarations and revealed truth to us stinky-footed bumpkins that you see as pathetically ignorant and mindless idiots with nothing useful to say.

A bottleneck is an event that causes a radical reduction in the numbers of a population and is often accompanied by a radical loss of genetic variation. It is not a speciation event. No one, I MEAN NO ONE, has shown it to be a speciation event.

The changes in a population selected by the environment are not random.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
Of course they are. Do the math.
Good grief!
Reality itself is chaotic. Everything has repercussions. ...For want of a nail.

What would War and Peace have looked like Tolstoy had been sick the day they started teaching addition? How many more or fewer monkeys would be needed to type it out if he had been jilted by his first love? You want to perceive what happens at face value as destiny but everything has precedents. There had to be an apple tree to drop an apple on Newton's head. What are the odds of one just growing there and growing an apple in just the right spot and holding it until Newton came by?

The butterfly caused the hurricane as surely as warm moist air rising from the ocean causes it.

This is what every experiment shows.
This is just nonsense. Do you have anything useful to post?
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
Of course. A butterfly can't flap or blow a hurricane into existence. It requires all the proper conditions like air rising from the ocean and a butterfly having flapped its wings in China ten days earlier.
I bet you heard this in the popular press and have taken it to nonsense levels. It's a metaphor. It wasn't intended to be taken literally. It describes small differences in initial conditions leading to very different outcomes.

Gee Whiz!
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I do want an answer so I can understand your reasoning but like usual I got a random response.

My question was... what does that say about humans previous to those inventions?
What does what say...oh never mind.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I bet you heard this in the popular press and have taken it to nonsense levels. It's a metaphor. It wasn't intended to be taken literally. It describes small differences in initial conditions leading to very different outcomes.

Gee Whiz!
Except cladking is right.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
Of course. A butterfly can't flap or blow a hurricane into existence. It requires all the proper conditions like air rising from the ocean and a butterfly having flapped its wings in China ten days earlier.
I really do feel that you could care less about what anyone else has to offer and will just keep right on posting the same empty claims elevated to fact as if in a vacuum.

I can't imagine wanting to stop learning and look at you as an example of what can happen if you try.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
Of course. A butterfly can't flap or blow a hurricane into existence. It requires all the proper conditions like air rising from the ocean and a butterfly having flapped its wings in China ten days earlier.
There has never been an observed and reported instance of a butterfly starting a hurricane.

IT'S A METAPHOR! ;):cool::p
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Sounds more like a description of what I get from your posts. You talk about things as if they are fact, but you offer nothing to support that they even exist. When challenged, you don't dissect, you diverge, deflect, ramble and disappear.

Another mantra?

There is a basic scientific method, but specific methodology within that framework varies with the discipline. You don't run physics experiments in ecology study.

Yes. Yes. The conspiracy of these mythical, invisible peers. I get the idea that you hate peers from some more personal reason that you won't reveal.

You don't act like it. I get the impression from your posts that you know everything and are more informed than any living being in the universe.

Not from what I've seen.

You may seek them. I haven't seen any evidence you have found one.

I don't believe you.

I have no idea what to make of this. It looks like more rambling with no real point.

Wow! You don't think Darwin new anything yet he is the devil so powerful he is destroying the world. Science hasn't become more dangerous. There is always danger in the misuse of knowledge. There is always danger from those that claim to know everything and don't really know much.

And you blame Darwin for all of this no doubt. All because he is from the 19th Century and got it right.

Is it? If it is, it is due to a lot of factors including those who want to force their beliefs on other instead of actual scholarship, study, science, ethics, and morality. Demanding that people replace knowledge with belief is a step that many are taking that will be self-fulfilling if you ask me.

That is not true. The numbers show declines in a lot of religion, especially fundamentalist religions.

That is your opinion. And if history serves, one that will never see the light of support.
Individuals join or desist from a war effort. The 'we' there is to be understood in its nomenclature. As in 'we' went to war. Or 'we' would not go to war. Both terms individualistic in reality.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

So we can add genetics to the ever growing list of things you don't know and understand. Different genes DO different things.

Possibly, but that doesn't eliminate the validity of fitness or mean that some members of a population don't have a greater propensity of increased reproduction.

Why you bother to insist on using a seemingly made up and unrecognized taxon that neither explains nor demonstrates anything is a symptom of the problem here. I note also that the direction this meander is taking clearly indicates that you have no idea what biological fitness is or what it tells us.

Nonsense. This is just your typical baseless speculation raised up to fact once again.

Yes, population have variation. That variation is expressed as fitness in the context of interaction with the environment. Fitness is not a personal judgement of the quality of an individual from a moral position.

How can I remember what is not an established fact anywhere in order to be remembered. Many living things don't have brains.

More meaningless claims about things that are not established facts. I can say that rocks have ancient rock language and taught the bees their waggle dance if we are still playing this game of make **** up and call it reality.

No. Sorry. These outcomes are dependent on the genetic variation of the population. Random events can intercede in specific examples, but that does not alter the outcomes and evidence from which fitness is found.

Stop telling me what I believe. How could you even know? It is not luck of the draw. As to what you believe, it is often all over the place but consistently at odds with evidence, experiment, logic or reason.

I could care less what nonsensical contrivances you might agree to in order to avoid a rational review of this and the recognition that you don't really have the knowledge or understanding to render informed opinions here.

I just stopped reading. It seems like a self-serving rambling to no useful end.

Fortunately, your erroneous declaration here has no impact on this.

If half of population succumbs to a toxin and the other half doesn't, it has been established that it is not random chance and there are actual reasons for such an outcome.

Are you just making this ramble up as you go. You speak as if you have this vast experience and body of knowledge from omniscience, when clearly you haven't the first clue.

You spent all this time writing this and didn't really address anything in my post. I have come to conclude that you don't give a **** what anyone posts and could care less what they say. What I think you feel is important is that you get your declarations and revealed truth to us stinky-footed bumpkins that you see as pathetically ignorant and mindless idiots with nothing useful to say.

A bottleneck is an event that causes a radical reduction in the numbers of a population and is often accompanied by a radical loss of genetic variation. It is not a speciation event. No one, I MEAN NO ONE, has shown it to be a speciation event.

The changes in a population selected by the environment are not random.
Bats so far remain bats. Birds so far remain birds. Gorillas etc.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
You spent all this time writing this and didn't really address anything in my post.

You missed it;

"In effect this is what breeding and agriculture are "an artificial imposition of a bottleneck". All animals with undesired characteristics are excluded by definition and barbed wire; they may as well have all died. It is this understanding that created human agriculture thousands of years ago."

This was the last paragraph.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
I don't believe cladking said butterflies could start a hurricane.

Yes and no. It would be more accurate to say that everything that exists or has ever existed causes a hurricane. The proximate reason is rising air but the simple fact is that if Napoleon had won at Waterloo the hurricane wouldn't exist at all. Either a different one would be near or there would be none. you can't step into the same river twice. Everything is dependent on initial conditions and everything that exists.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
You missed it;
There was nothing offered to miss. It was like your many, many, many non-existent posts including the assumption Darwin used in formulating the theory of evolution and your commentary explaining how each was wrong. Just doesn't exist.

Is this really the best you have? SMH.
"In effect this is what breeding and agriculture are "an artificial imposition of a bottleneck".
Not at all. You've been educated on this, but refuse for your own personal reasons. I just point it out so that some interested, but uniformed person might accidently see that nonsense and think it was a fact.
All animals with undesired characteristics are excluded by definition and barbed wire; they may as well have all died. It is this understanding that created human agriculture thousands of years ago."
You think they had barbed wire thousands of years ago? Wow!

Farming arose from simple observation.

Those undesirable characteristics reduced their fitness in this artificial system and they were probably eaten.
This was the last paragraph.
Nothing in my post that you responded to was talking about the origin of agriculture, which you seem to know so very little about anyway.
 
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Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes and no. It would be more accurate to say that everything that exists or has ever existed causes a hurricane. The proximate reason is rising air but the simple fact is that if Napoleon had won at Waterloo the hurricane wouldn't exist at all. Either a different one would be near or there would be none. you can't step into the same river twice. Everything is dependent on initial conditions and everything that exists.
I predict that you will return claiming the same things and continuing to elevate what you believe up to fact.

I find this desire not to learn very strange. I can't imagine what purpose it serves.

By all means. Ramble on.
 
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