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Evolution, maybe someone can explain?

cladking

Well-Known Member
This will happen no time soon because most responses are canned and address not an argument but rather existing beliefs and assumptions.

How else can it be explained why even simple truisms like "all life at all levels is observed only to change suddenly" are gainsaid? This is nearly true by definition since most all observation occurs over short periods of time and any change purported to occur over a long time period is dependent on interpretation of evidence.

It is believers causing the impasse: Not heretics.

Meanwhile most of those who understand science and know I'm (sometimes?) right remain silent.
 

McBell

Unbound
Honesty and knowledge are not torment. Recognizing that someone is repeating the same thing over and over as if it were never before discussed is not torment.

But I suppose "anything goes" right? :);):cool:
I find it most entertaining how they are so often guilty of that which they accuse of others.

Giving credit where credit is due, they are consistent with their hypocrisy.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Yes. We do. And I feel I have effectively outlined those I consider to be your viewpoint. I believe that is why you didn't address one of those points or any of the questions.
that's fine, and yes, I believe you have. Not sure exactly what you're referring to, but you have been fairly explicit in your responses. Thank you.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
Excellent question.

The problem is that believers in science all have the same tactics; divide and conquer. Every heretic is beaten about the head with doctrine.

For strategic and tactical reasons I have found it advantageous to side with any heretic at all. Many of us are very easy to side with because we are essentially correct anyway unlike believers who have every answer.

When believers start addressing individual arguments it will no longer be necessary to support heretics. This will happen no time soon because most responses are canned and address not an argument but rather existing beliefs and assumptions.
I don't find anything useful in anything you preach. I am not interested in joining you in what I see as a delusion of manufactured facts that have no correlation with any observation that anyone has been able to discover. You may be trivially aware of some science and use fractured pieces of it to construct your personal "facts". As it appears to me from the evidence of your posts. But, from that, I conclude you are a believer that believes only in what you personally concoct in your own mind, absent of any corresponding facts that you can share or even try to. You seem steadfast in a refusal to have a rational discussion or seek any mutual ground with others to even attempt to. Why would I want to engage with someone that dismisses anything anyone else says and never supplies the needed support for your claims?

All you seem to capable of against those that reject your vision or challenge your "facts" is to objectify and dehumanize them as some vast conspiracy of "believers" that you call Peers. A label for a faceless enemy for whom you seem ready and willing to apply to any that challenge you just to make it easy to toss them away and continue on.

If you were calling what you do a religion, I would call it unusual, but your right to believe. But you don't stop there. You imply with every word, a personal omniscience of certainty that what you reveal is "truth" only you see and fact substantiated by science when it isn't. A view that remains to this day undemonstrated and, based on all evidence, will remain so until you grow tired of claiming it and running away.

I've grown bored. Nothing you have said has provided me with answers or stimulated new areas inquiry for me. I believe that is widely true for many that have tried to engage you. In my view, YOU are the believer that you curse everyone else for being. You bore me and offer nothing to engage me.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
that's fine, and yes, I believe you have. Not sure exactly what you're referring to, but you have been fairly explicit in your responses. Thank you.
You are very welcome. I do hope it has helped you to better understand and I pray that you find this and other guidance enlightening.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
How else can it be explained why even simple truisms like "all life at all levels is observed only to change suddenly" are gainsaid? This is nearly true by definition since most all observation occurs over short periods of time and any change purported to occur over a long time period is dependent on interpretation of evidence.

It is believers causing the impasse: Not heretics.

Meanwhile most of those who understand science and know I'm (sometimes?) right remain silent.
No. Those that understand science have been very vocal. What you call silence is just those voices being ignored by those self-appointed with personal omniscience. I think your ears receive the sounds, but you mind refuses to hear.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
No. Those that understand science have been very vocal.

You might be surprised.

I've done research my entire life. Often it lasts for seconds before I'm comfortable with an answer and sometimes days and days. It's rarely longer.

My current research has been ongoing for 18 years now. During this time I have had reason to converse or write to various experts in various subjects. You might be surprised just how little I do consult experts, peers, and specialists not because I think I have all the answers but experts have invariably been wrong when I talk to them. They say some of the stupidest things that can be disproven almost immediately sometimes and other times I might be misled for weeks. These are experts who should have facts and data at their fingertips or memorized since mostly it's very very basic and might even be wrong on its face. But these are the experts in the hard sciences where facts can be checked; either copper sulphate is miscible in alcohol or it is not.

It's the experts in the soft sciences that are the real issue because not one of them to date has even responded to questions.

You have this idea that every question in every subject has one single correct answer but this is very false and even were it true if experts and those with fancy doctorates can't provide proper answers then why should I take the word of people on the internet who provide opinions about things that obviously have no fixed answers?

Very few and rapidly diminishing numbers of people understand science. They are highly recognizable because they don't think they have answers but their opinions often reflect opinions that are cutting edge. They never take me to task for my methodology, only my interpretations.

No, I'm not suggesting that any experts agree with me about anything at all. Indeed, these people rarely will even talk to me. All of these people are not even peers but many are metaphysicians. Indeed, most scientists who understand science are at least a little bit metaphysician. This would include people like Feynman and Einstein.

Due to the nature and simplicity of my current research the bulk of it is done by search engines. It's in the nature of tying together facts, history, and simple science. You don't need much expertise for this nor extensive education. It's mostly just grunt work like digging ditches.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
Quite frankly I do not recall.
See it from my point of view.

You come on this forum claiming to understand the theory, but your basis for rejection is that you don't understand how it could work.

You have posted numerous threads and responses over the years telling everyone how you studied and accepted the theory as a child and claim you currently read books and articles on the subject. Yet still rely on the same means to reject the theory based on your inability to understand it and see how it works. On that basis alone, I couldn't conclude that you understand science or the theory of evolution to offer a valid rejection of it based on any evidence. This is reinforced by your propensity to create threads asking the same questions over and over going back years. To me it seems more like campaign to keep the controversy of belief-based rejection alive rather than come to understanding and learn.

I've routinely noticed that you appear hurt when anyone points these facts out and the logical fallacies that you regularly use to support your rejection of the theory. From my experience, you do the same thing to others and expect to get off scot-free in the doing. You make rather garbled, often incomprehensible and seemingly passive aggressive insult and dismissal of the posts of others that support the theory or challenge your position. It seems that we have a pot and kettle situation that I'm not sure you recognize.

I don't have any issues that you believe something, but your beliefs or mine have nothing to do with the validity of a scientific theory. Neither of us can produce a satisfactory acceptance or rejection of the theory based on what we believe. Even if it were correct, there is no way to demonstrate that. That is the basis for using evidence to demonstrate something.

I don't know that there is any common ground for us to discuss these things.

I don't consider myself to be self-appointed or appointed by God to know who is and who is not Christian. I don't have the means and don't know that anyone else does either. Rejecting science is not known to me to be the key to salvation nor is adherence to any doctrine some person on the internet has proclaimed I must embrace in order to be Christian. I know what I believe and I know what I can demonstrate.

I think you have difficulty understanding the difference between the two.

That doesn't leave us much room to discuss anything.

I appreciate your interest in these things, but I'm afraid I'll bid you good day this subject. Best to you.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
See it from my point of view.

You come on this forum claiming to understand the theory, but your basis for rejection is that you don't understand how it could work.

You have posted numerous threads and responses over the years telling everyone how you studied and accepted the theory as a child and claim you currently read books and articles on the subject. Yet still rely on the same means to reject the theory based on your inability to understand it and see how it works. On that basis alone, I couldn't conclude that you understand science or the theory of evolution to offer a valid rejection of it based on any evidence. This is reinforced by your propensity to create threads asking the same questions over and over going back years. To me it seems more like campaign to keep the controversy of belief-based rejection alive rather than come to understanding and learn.

I've routinely noticed that you appear hurt when anyone points these facts out and the logical fallacies that you regularly use to support your rejection of the theory. From my experience, you do the same thing to others and expect to get off scot-free in the doing. You make rather garbled, often incomprehensible and seemingly passive aggressive insult and dismissal of the posts of others that support the theory or challenge your position. It seems that we have a pot and kettle situation that I'm not sure you recognize.

I don't have any issues that you believe something, but your beliefs or mine have nothing to do with the validity of a scientific theory. Neither of us can produce a satisfactory acceptance or rejection of the theory based on what we believe. Even if it were correct, there is no way to demonstrate that. That is the basis for using evidence to demonstrate something.

I don't know that there is any common ground for us to discuss these things.

I don't consider myself to be self-appointed or appointed by God to know who is and who is not Christian. I don't have the means and don't know that anyone else does either. Rejecting science is not known to me to be the key to salvation nor is adherence to any doctrine some person on the internet has proclaimed I must embrace in order to be Christian. I know what I believe and I know what I can demonstrate.

I think you have difficulty understanding the difference between the two.

That doesn't leave us much room to discuss anything.

I appreciate your interest in these things, but I'm afraid I'll bid you good day this subject. Best to you.
There are ways of saying things that can help or hurt. That I say I understand the theory does not mean I have studied every detail of it. Perhaps better phrased would be that I understand why some people believe it. It seems logical. But yes, there are major (in my opinion) steps lacking insofar as evidence is concerned. And that's where I'm going to stop today.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
You might be surprised.
I don't know any reason why I would be. Certainly nothing you have done.
I've done research my entire life.
I don't believe that is correct. There is nothing to indicate this. I think you have a secret, personal definition of research that doesn't appear to conform with what is known to be called research.
Often it lasts for seconds before I'm comfortable with an answer and sometimes days and days. It's rarely longer.
There is nothing to demonstrate that you have done more than read the works of others and come up with what remain without demonstration as wild, unsubstantiated claims and what I think is best described as rambling.
My current research has been ongoing for 18 years now.
Where does one get a grant for surfing the internet and misconstruing the works of others to fit a personal belief?
During this time I have had reason to converse or write to various experts in various subjects.
Reason to perhaps, but no evidence that you ever did.
You might be surprised just how little I do consult experts, peers, and specialists not because I think I have all the answers but experts have invariably been wrong when I talk to them.
I'm not surprised at all. That this statement I'm responding to here provides evidence contradicting the one proceeding it doesn't surprise me either.

That you believe you know more than those that have spent decades learning and study a subject also doesn't surprise me.
They say some of the stupidest things that can be disproven almost immediately sometimes and other times I might be misled for weeks. These are experts who should have facts and data at their fingertips or memorized since mostly it's very very basic and might even be wrong on its face. But these are the experts in the hard sciences where facts can be checked; either copper sulphate is miscible in alcohol or it is not.
Perhaps they have come to the same conclusions I have and don't want to spend time on fruitless communication with someone that cannot provide a cogent argument or any support of their claims.
It's the experts in the soft sciences that are the real issue because not one of them to date has even responded to questions.
Like many things you post, there is no connection of this statement with anything that remotely touches on what you claim or anything that has been mentioned by myself or others. I have no idea what you personally define as the "soft sciences" or why you have mentioned that.
You have this idea that every question in every subject has one single correct answer but this is very false and even were it true if experts and those with fancy doctorates can't provide proper answers then why should I take the word of people on the internet who provide opinions about things that obviously have no fixed answers?
No. I don't. I have this idea that if someone is going to claim expertise in a subject or make claims about a subject, they establish that they are an expert and have evidence to back up their claims.

YOU have established nothing more than you believe some stuff. You offer nothing for others to agree with your claims and accept them. Often the claims are practically meaningless on their face.
Very few and rapidly diminishing numbers of people understand science.
There are more scientists today than the combined numbers of the prior 500 years.

Perhaps what you are seeing is that which already existed. There are a lot of people that have always failed to understand science and a lot of people peddling nonsense that they claim is science to suck in portions of that group to their belief and pseudoscience.
They are highly recognizable because they don't think they have answers but their opinions often reflect opinions that are cutting edge.
I think they are recognizable by the claims that they know everything about things that are not established to be knowable. I think Ancient Language fits in that category. Claims about the brains of 40,000 year old Homo sapiens is another example where there are no brains of that age or any age up to perhaps 5,000 years ago to study and no evidence that those making such claims have studied what there is. I think they are recognizable by a lot of rambling and empty assertions.
They never take me to task for my methodology, only my interpretations.
All I know is that your methodology appears to be reading the work of others, synthesizing that with undemonstrated beliefs about these things and then posting empty assertions based on that synthesis on numerous web forums.
No, I'm not suggesting that any experts agree with me about anything at all.
Probably just as well. I couldn't imagine it would be many or even any if they are sticking to science.
Indeed, these people rarely will even talk to me.
Once more contradicting what you seemingly implied in your opening that you could consult with experts.
All of these people are not even peers
I believe this.
but many are metaphysicians.
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. It is vacuous to me.
Indeed, most scientists who understand science are at least a little bit metaphysician.
Again, a claim without meaning or explanation and nothing to offer for me to accept.
This would include people like Feynman and Einstein.
If you say so. What that means to you, I cannot say and have no expectation of explanation or even an attempt at it.
Due to the nature and simplicity of my current research the bulk of it is done by search engines.
Yes. I understand surfing the web.
It's in the nature of tying together facts, history, and simple science.
And it seems sewing bits and pieces of what appears to be a trivial gleaning into a personal narrative that you believe, but have so far failed to demonstrate to anyone anywhere that I know of. If you have, you have not offered it for others to view.
You don't need much expertise for this nor extensive education.
Again, I agree. I have seen nothing that would require any sort of expertise in science.
It's mostly just grunt work like digging ditches.
Science is mostly grunt work. Scientists know this. It is the conclusions, explanations, testing and theory that arise from this grunt work that is ultimately what is important. Observing, questioning, experimenting and analyzing evidence followed by publishing and defense of those conclusions in a meaningful and comprehensive form are most important. It is the product of all that grunt work. Scientists love to tell others what they did. How they did it. What they found. And what they think that means. Something I find conspicuously lacking in your claims.

As I have said before, there is no common ground for us to work with. I have grown bored seeing the same unsubstantiated claims routinely offered on heavy rotation as if they are fact or truism. Offered without any explanation or defense of them. Seemingly as if it is unnecessary to do so.

Frankly, you don't seem interested in what anyone has to say unless it is empty enthusiasm for what you seem to see as your "great work". I don't care to try and engage with someone that isn't interested in what I have to offer. So, I will act in kind and give you the same respect you have given me.

Good luck. Good bye.
 
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Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
There are ways of saying things that can help or hurt.
This is true, but exists on both sides.

Do you think repeating things that you have information to know they are not worth repeating is offering respect to those you are trying convince of the correctness of your position? Do you think ignoring what others says is helpful or hurtful?
That I say I understand the theory does not mean I have studied every detail of it.
To me it seems that you have heard of the theory and you are part of a group that provides their biased take on the theory and you have accepted that. It isn't personally hurtful to come to this conclusion or to voice it in a debate.
Perhaps better phrased would be that I understand why some people believe it.
To be honest, I can't say that I see that understanding.
It seems logical. But yes, there are major (in my opinion) steps lacking insofar as evidence is concerned.
A feeling that you have never been able to put words to in any way to support it as more than a personal feeling.
And that's where I'm going to stop today.
In answering this I've gone further than I intended and will continue from here as I did intend.

Thank you.

Take care.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
This is true, but exists on both sides.

Do you think repeating things that you have information to know they are not worth repeating is offering respect to those you are trying convince of the correctness of your position? Do you think ignoring what others says is helpful or hurtful?

To me it seems that you have heard of the theory and you are part of a group that provides their biased take on the theory and you have accepted that. It isn't personally hurtful to come to this conclusion or to voice it in a debate.

To be honest, I can't say that I see that understanding.

A feeling that you have never been able to put words to in any way to support it as more than a personal feeling.

In answering this I've gone further than I intended and will continue from here as I did intend.

Thank you.

Take care.
Well, I know you do not want to discuss these things with me anymore, and I respect that, so I will not offer my remonstrations (lack of my consent or stamp of approval) for the theory as it stands. Although I have in the past (such as the easier one, such as the "Unknown Common Denominator" for apes, however out of respect I will stop.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
This is true, but exists on both sides.

Do you think repeating things that you have information to know they are not worth repeating is offering respect to those you are trying convince of the correctness of your position? Do you think ignoring what others says is helpful or hurtful?

To me it seems that you have heard of the theory and you are part of a group that provides their biased take on the theory and you have accepted that. It isn't personally hurtful to come to this conclusion or to voice it in a debate.

To be honest, I can't say that I see that understanding.

A feeling that you have never been able to put words to in any way to support it as more than a personal feeling.

In answering this I've gone further than I intended and will continue from here as I did intend.

Thank you.

Take care.
Anyway, realizing you don't want to engage in conversation any more with me, yet you bring up something again I feel prompted to respond. The reason I say I understand it is mainly because it seems logical to the many. And if I look at the formulation of the theory it appears to be logical. Even if I do not agree with the postulates about the process and actuality of the details as purported by the many. There was a study made about doctors and stents. And despite the outcome when it comes to recommending stents for people with heart problems, most doctors will recommend stents, even though they also know the patient can do well enough without them, statistically speaking, that is. Stents, bypass surgery show no benefit in heart disease mortality rates among stable patients
This is reference to what those trained in science may purport or believe.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Scientists know this. It is the conclusions, explanations, testing and theory that arise from this grunt work that is ultimately what is important

:)

It depends on what part of science you are doing. I am most adept at hypothesis formation and experiment design. I've never done much of the grunt work before.

Scientists love to tell others what they did. How they did it. What they found. And what they think that means. Something I find conspicuously lacking in your claims.

Science is wrong about everything and we need to rebuild from the bottom up.

This is my conclusion.

Curiously when we rebuild from the bottom up the new construct will have a much more religious "flavor" than the old one and this goes ten times over for "Evolution". In the mad rush to exclude "God" from the big picture everything has been misinterpreted.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
:)

It depends on what part of science you are doing. I am most adept at hypothesis formation and experiment design. I've never done much of the grunt work before.



Science is wrong about everything and we need to rebuild from the bottom up.

This is my conclusion.

Curiously when we rebuild from the bottom up the new construct will have a much more religious "flavor" than the old one and this goes ten times over for "Evolution". In the mad rush to exclude "God" from the big picture everything has been misinterpreted.
The rather famous Miller Urey experiment did not "prove," demonstrate or evidence evolution. But it is said to confirm the possibility (remember I said possibility) of abiogenesis in scientists' minds. "Stanley Miller's experiment, or the Miller-Urey experiment, was and is one of the most significant experiments within biology and biochemistry. The experiment essentially pioneered the fields of astrobiology or exobiology, and scientific studies into questions regarding the origin of life. The results of the experiment were that organic matter could emerge from inorganic matter." So that is what was concluded from the array of composed factors in that experiment. Conducting Miller-Urey Experiments
 

gnostic

The Lost One
The rather famous Miller Urey experiment did not "prove," demonstrate or evidence evolution. But it is said to confirm the possibility (remember I said possibility) of abiogenesis in scientists' minds. "Stanley Miller's experiment, or the Miller-Urey experiment, was and is one of the most significant experiments within biology and biochemistry. The experiment essentially pioneered the fields of astrobiology or exobiology, and scientific studies into questions regarding the origin of life. The results of the experiment were that organic matter could emerge from inorganic matter." So that is what was concluded from the array of composed factors in that experiment. Conducting Miller-Urey Experiments

well, a cell, cannot exist without organic matters, so Abiogenesis (not Evolution), do focus on the origins of essential biological compounds, like

the origin of protiens (which are made of any chain of 22 different types of amino acids), so understanding how amino acids formed, is essential for life​
the origin of carbohydrates, which have many different functions, depending on the cells or tissues, which are essential for life,​
the origin of lipids,​
and the origins of nucleic acids, which are made of one of 2 types of carbohydrates (ribose for RNA, deoxyribose for DNA), 1 phosphate, & 4 out of 5 types of nitrogenous base molecules (nucleobase).​

Knowing how each of these biological molecules Formed, will give biochemists , molecular biologists and other scientists, ideas on how to answer some of the questions, about the origin of the earliest cells, and therefore, the origin of life.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
Anyway, realizing you don't want to engage in conversation any more with me, yet you bring up something again I feel prompted to respond.
I'm not against conversation with you in general, but specifically, I'm interested that it be meaningful and on point. That claims are followed with evidence and explanation supporting the claims.
The reason I say I understand it is mainly because it seems logical to the many.
I'm not sure I understand that. That seems like an argumentum ad populum to me. What other's may think could be correct, but it could be wrong. Using only what is popular and what others merely claim to know isn't a sound basis for concluding in favor of those popular claims in my opinion. Popular opinion could be based on misconceptions, misinformation, ignorance or bias among other things. Even if it is not, it would be better to know why these others accept it and to examine their reasons and reasoning to get where they got. Those I have seen that accept the theory base that acceptance on the evidence and the demonstration of that evidence supporting the theory.
And if I look at the formulation of the theory it appears to be logical.
I agree.
Even if I do not agree with the postulates about the process and actuality of the details as purported by the many.
That is an issue that I do not understand. It has been demonstrated that population gene frequencies change over time. So the basics of the theory are established. There is experimental evidence for selection, both in natural and artificially in agriculture.
There was a study made about doctors and stents. And despite the outcome when it comes to recommending stents for people with heart problems, most doctors will recommend stents, even though they also know the patient can do well enough without them, statistically speaking, that is. Stents, bypass surgery show no benefit in heart disease mortality rates among stable patients
@It Aint Necessarily So has a much more informed voice on this subject than I do and perhaps may choose to respond as well if we are lucky.

I read the article and do have some thoughts. I didn't come to the conclusion you have based on what the article states. It was an intensive study with a large sample group specifically looking at the outcome of invasive surgical procedures compared to drug therapy and lifestyle change on those with stable heart conditions. The finding is that drug therapy and life style change were as effective as surgery. Especially good news to those that are uncomfortable with surgery.

I see this a scientific success. There was a question regarding the efficacy of two different treatments. One surgical and one medical therapy alone. This is right from the article. “This has been one of the central questions of cardiovascular medicine for a long time: Is medical therapy alone or medical therapy combined with routine invasive procedures the best treatment for this group of stable heart patients?”

The evidence indicates that medical treatment and lifestyle change had equivalent outcomes to surgery, so the surgery (which has risks all of its own) could be foregone in favor of non-invasive treatment in those with stable heart conditions. Stents and invasive surgery were seen to remain more efficacious in those with coronary artery disease who also had symptoms of angina.

I didn't see that there was a conclusion that doctors were ignoring this and performing surgery anyway. It seems clear to me that this would give doctors more evidence to come to treatment decisions and would likely reduce the number of surgical procedures as a treatment.

I think you misinterpreted the conclusions of this study. It isn't a case where scientists are ignoring the science and doesn't act as evidence that scientists could have gotten the theory of evolution wrong. For one, you are trying to make an association between a specific set of medical circumstances and an experiment that isn't designed to challenge any theory and comparing that to a body of evidence, rather than a single study supporting a theory. It wouldn't make much sense to turn the theory of evolution over just because of one questionable study and the study you reference isn't questionable as near as I can see.


This is reference to what those trained in science may purport or believe.
I'm still at a loss to see that it challenges science or the findings and how that applies to the theory of evolution. The article indicates the groups that the findings apply to and those where it does not. I clearly shows that within the specific study group, treatments had equivalent outcomes, thus giving evidence to favor medical therapy over surgery for the specific group of patients.

I appreciate that you actually brought evidence to the discussion. That is the sort of thing I'm in favor of in these discussions.
 
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