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Evolution, maybe someone can explain?

leroy

Well-Known Member
We have covered that, and explained to you, but you are ignoring the answers that already have been given.

You are talking about “what-if” possibilities in the future, but biological sciences deal with the current available evidence & data to determine probabilities, and the evidence are clear, neither the reptile groups & bird groups, nor the mammals group, would become or evolve back to being amphibians or fishes again.

Evolution “evolve”, branching outward and forward, not going backwards.

It isn’t just about being having four limbs (Tetrapoda), of being able to support their body weight, to move more freely on dry lands, and it isn’t just about having lungs that do the works, to breathe.

It is more than that. There are another very important element that distinguish mammals, reptiles and birds from fishes and amphibians.

In their reproduction cycle, the fish groups and amphibian groups have continued to lay their eggs, UNDERWATER, in the AQUATIC ENVIRONMENTS, like the seas, lakes, rivers, etc. Hence, the biologists classified the fishes and amphibians as ANAMNIOTA. All anamniotes - fishes and amphibians - lay their eggs underwater.

The earliest ancestors of the mammals as well as all the current species, and the ancestors of the reptiles and birds, as well as all the current species, are classified respectively as SYNAPSIDA and SAUROPSIDA.

Both Synapsida & Sauropsida are the two clades of AMNIOTA. And Amniota itself is the clade of Tetrapoda that are all animals that are not anamniotes like extant or extinct amphibians.

All amniotes, reproduce in one of two ways:
  1. They either lay their fertilised eggs on dry lands, as all reptiles and birds do, as well as few species of mammals, the monotreme (Monotremata, an order of Mammalia), like the platypuses and echidnas.
  2. Or, the embryos and foetuses grow in the wombs, prior to live births, as all mammals, except the monotreme creatures (echidnas & platypuses).
That’s the other thing that separated mammals from fishes and amphibians.

And speaking of amphibians. While amphibians can live in both on land and under water, whenever they need to lay their eggs, they always return to the water, laying their eggs underwater. The eggs from amphibians (as well as fish eggs) lack the amnion - the membrane that protect the developing embryos, hence all anamniotes have to lay their eggs in aquatic environments.

Even more important, when the eggs of amphibians, hatched, the tadpoles (the larval stages of young amphibians) have gills, but as they mature, frogs and toads tends to lose their gills, they breathe underwater, through their skins. The adult salamanders, on the other hand, depending on their species, would either keep their gills, while others lose their gills and breathe through their skin when underwater…as I said, it depends on their species species of salamander.

For the amniotes (reptiles, birds & mammals). The amnion is essential membrane that protect the eggs during the embryonic stage, so that the embryos would grow, when they are lay on dry land, or continue to grow in the female wombs.

When crocodiles, sea turtles or sea snakes, reproduced, they would return dry land, to lay their eggs. I know that turtles buried their eggs, that not only keep eggs warm, but afford the eggs some protection from predators.

Like or not, crocodiles have existed, pretty much as the earliest dinosaurs, and they haven’t evolved much, still living most of the time in water, and yet they would always lay their eggs on dry land, not underwater like the amphibians do. Despite the tens of millions of years, their lifestyle haven’t changed, as they still don’t gills.

Penguins also spend much times in the seas, but when the time, they too would deposit their eggs on either dry lands or on ice, and then sit on them until the eggs hatch. Penguins have grow gills.

Whales, dolphins and porpoises, I have already mentioned in the past replies, always have the embryos and foetuses grow in their wombs for some periods of time, prior to live births, just like most mammals do. None of these cetaceans have needed gills.

It is highly likely that aquatic & semi-aquatic mammals, reptiles & birds would continue their evolution without needing gills.

You keep talking about what-if scenarios, but you are ignoring the evidence and data.


evolution “evolve”, branching outward and forward, not going backwards.
In the context of evolution there is no such thing as “backwards”

You are talking about “what-if” possibilities in the future, but biological sciences deal with the current available evidence & data to determine probabilities,
and the evidence are clear, neither the reptile groups & bird groups, nor the mammals group, would become or evolve back to being amphibians or fishes again.

If your point is that humans will never evolved “back” to become the *same* ancestral fish that we used to be 500M years ago………….I agree………if your point is that we will never recover the exact same gills (same genes) that we lost 400My ago I agree

My point is that through convergent evolution and given enough time selective pressure and luck our descendants could evolve in to creatures with something like a gill scales and other traits that we commonly associate with fish ……….. this is not supposed to be controversial, there is no hidden trick nor hidden agenda………..I am just repeating what we all learned in school when we were 12 years old

 

leroy

Well-Known Member
If birds are dinosaurs, obviously humans are fish. According to the theory of descent, or ascent, however you look at it. Or, of course, evolution.
Birds are dinosaurs, because it simply happened to be the case that we happen to classify them as such .

Originally the word dinosaur was a flexible word used to describe all those ancient reptiles that appear in movie Jurassic Park, which included T-Rex, triceratops, pterodactyls, Pleasioraurus etc. ……….. but them (within the year 2,000 I think) someone decided to change the definition of dinosaurs (ruin our childhood) in to something that includes modern birds like chickens and excludes cool animals like pterodactyls………… but this are just words and definitions, this is just the way we happen to classify animals ……..
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
I've shown you the evidence for Tiktaalik and described how researchers were able to predict where it was in the fossil record, and found it exactly where they predicted, about 3 or 4 times now. You can go read those.

Why on earth would anyone take the time to explain it to you yet again, at this point, when it's been explained to you umpteen times already, and yet still hasn't sunk in?? That would be an exercise in futility, imo. You aren't really interested in learning. That is crystal clear.
tell me more about that prediction.............based on what was tiktaalik expected to be found in those layers?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Au contraire.
The point was about how supposedly @leroy 's mistakes are never pointed out and correct, while they clearly are.
Starting to yap about how some things maybe won't ever be explained scientifically, has nothing to do with that.


There is no reason at all to think that the progress that is being made in the field of abiogenesis will come to a stop.
Mistakes made by me have been pointed out and corrected multiple times in this forum………..the difference is that I simply admit my mistakes
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
None of this supports your claim that fish evolved independently 20 times.
Fish is a paraphyletic group. Meaning it includes the last common ancestor and some but not all of the descendent branches.

So of all the branches that are considered "fish", their common ancestor was also considered a fish.
So no, there were no multiple independent evolutions of fish from a non-fish.
Seems to me that you are playing with words and definitions, the point is that there are many independent branches the we call fish (colloquially)…….(similar to “bugs”) where we have insects spiders and various types of worms that we colloquially call “bugs”………………….. this is fundamentally different from true clades like birds or mammals where we have just 1 branch and many related sub branches

All I am saying is that mammals and fish are not analogous from the point of view of cladistics………..again nothing stage nor uncontroversial
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Birds are dinosaurs, because it simply happened to be the case that we happen to classify them as such .

Originally the word dinosaur was a flexible word used to describe all those ancient reptiles that appear in movie Jurassic Park, which included T-Rex, triceratops, pterodactyls, Pleasioraurus etc. ……….. but them (within the year 2,000 I think) someone decided to change the definition of dinosaurs (ruin our childhood) in to something that includes modern birds like chickens and excludes cool animals like pterodactyls………… but this are just words and definitions, this is just the way we happen to classify animals ……..
No. Birds are dinosaurs for the same reason that you and I are apes. You got the answer wrong again.
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
In the context of evolution there is no such thing as “backwards”



If your point is that humans will never evolved “back” to become the *same* ancestral fish that we used to be 500M years ago………….I agree………if your point is that we will never recover the exact same gills (same genes) that we lost 400My ago I agree

My point is that through convergent evolution and given enough time selective pressure and luck our descendants could evolve in to creatures with something like a gill scales and other traits that we commonly associate with fish ……….. this is not supposed to be controversial, there is no hidden trick nor hidden agenda………..I am just repeating what we all learned in school when we were 12 years old
Unfortunately you stopped learning at that point, you heard the basic introductory class and never paid attention to the places where the concepts were developed. Convergent evolution does not make not-X into X, it only makes them X-like. In adult conversation there is a difference and it is basic to understanding evolutionary patterns. From your perspective, you seem to think X-like is somehow an exception to evolution. It is because there is no backwards in evolution thus it can only be X-like and never X even if you and your five year old friends call them X.
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
Birds are dinosaurs, because it simply happened to be the case that we happen to classify them as such .

Originally the word dinosaur was a flexible word used to describe all those ancient reptiles that appear in movie Jurassic Park, which included T-Rex, triceratops, pterodactyls, Pleasioraurus etc. ……….. but them (within the year 2,000 I think) someone decided to change the definition of dinosaurs (ruin our childhood) in to something that includes modern birds like chickens and excludes cool animals like pterodactyls………… but this are just words and definitions, this is just the way we happen to classify animals ……..
Actually birds are fish by the same reality, just more evidence that neither of you understand the concepts of evolution regardless of your claims.
No wonder you have problems, you think Jurassic Park is as accurate as the Bible. Oh wait, you might not be wrong in that. :)

If the ancestor of all fish is a fish then so are all of it's progeny no matter how many branches in the tree.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
So to support your claim that "most scientist" today believe that gills evolved multiple times, you are citing a paper from several years ago that states it only evolved once in the common ancestor of vertebrata? :shrug:
I didn’t say that “most scientis today” say anything…………..will you admit your mistake this time?

What I said is that some scientists say it. The paper shows that there is such controversy……………….and even more important those who claim that it only evolved once claim it based on the evidence that they see from phylogenetic……………….not because more than once is impossible as @Pogo claims
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Unfortunately you stopped learning at that point, you heard the basic introductory class and never paid attention to the places where the concepts were developed. Convergent evolution does not make not-X into X, it only makes them X-like. In adult conversation there is a difference and it is basic to understanding evolutionary patterns. From your perspective, you seem to think X-like is somehow an exception to evolution. It is because there is no backwards in evolution thus it can only be X-like and never X even if you and your five year old friends call them X.
Really is that it? Ok then just change “gills” for “gill-like” in my comment.

Given enough time selective preassure and luck our ancestors could develop “gill-like” organs...........does that solve the problem?
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
We have a saying in Hindi: "Bhains ke age been bajaye, bhains khari plagura'e" (One may play a flute in front of a buffalo for years, but the only sound that the buffalo will make is 'moo')
We have a similar saying in English: Never try to peach a pig to sing. It's a waste of your timer and it annoys the pig.
It's not a contest. It's called reality.
Reality is a contest. It's a game with rules. Your job is to discover the rules and navigate the game as optimally as possible.

I want to see an experiment that shows gradual change in species caused by survivalof the fittest. I want you to show me EXACTLY what makes an individual more likely to be naturally selected and then show your definition actually works.
Your education is YOUR responsibility, not something you can demand of others.
"Selected" is just the past tense "fit"
Selected is the past tense of select. Fit is the past tense of fits. "I select a shirt to try on in the hope that it fits. The one I selected didn't fit."
"Evolution" isn't a theory
Except in science.
Interpretation of the fossil record is neither experiment nor justification for using words like "theory" to describe our belief in "Evolution". All it does is show species change
That's evolution and the evidence for it.
When I say "Observation > Experiment" what part do you disagree with?
>
Show me why one single individual survived in any instance!
Try this:
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Really is that it? Ok then just change “gills” for “gill-like” in my comment.

Given enough time selective preassure and luck our ancestors could develop “gill-like” organs.
No, our ancestors could not do that. You see, and this is a big clue as to why, they are dead.

Our descendants possibly could. Though I cannot think of a mechanism. Such changes usually require a more general form, but who know? And yes, we do see that quite often. It is called "convergent evolution". The environment can impose evolutionary changes on organisms. Basic physics is why dolphins, sharks, tunas, and mosasaurs all have or had roughly the same shape. But when details ae examined we can see how they all evolved to that shape independently.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Nice cheat. You did not have a source. That source came from the paper that @TagliatelliMonster linked. You should not have been so lazy. As he already pointed out that paper refutes those sources.

Oh, and by context multiple tends to mean more than twice. Otherwise the word twice would been used. In other words that was a double failure on your part.
A bunch of random words.

I is still true that:

1 I made a claim

2 you asked for a source

3 I provided a source

Since you didn’t show that the source is wrong, nor that I interpreted something the wrong way………..I will assume that the topic is over
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
A bunch of random words.

I is still true that:

1 I made a claim

2 you asked for a source

3 I provided a source

Since you didn’t show that the source is wrong, nor that I interpreted something the wrong way………..I will assume that the topic is over
No, you failed, and I explained why.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Actually birds are fish by the same reality, just more evidence that neither of you understand the concepts of evolution regardless of your claims.
No wonder you have problems, you think Jurassic Park is as accurate as the Bible. Oh wait, you might not be wrong in that. :)

If the ancestor of all fish is a fish then so are all of it's progeny no matter how many branches in the tree.

Actually birds are fish
NO

@TagliatelliMonster can explain you why. birds arent fish...


 

cladking

Well-Known Member

I defined ">" this for you at least twice as meaning ""and then" or "in conjunction with".

One has no meaning without the other. Somehow or other people overlook the fact that all Darwin had was "observation" and without "Observation > Experiment" there can be no science at all. ...Just as the number 9 can't exist without the number 10. Just as life can't exist without consciousness. Just as a baby can't exist without conception.

Conception > baby

Many things go hand in hand and can't exist without the other.

Chicken > Egg

Deductive logic is easy. It's inductive logic that is hard. This is why I don't do induction.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
No, our ancestors could not do that. You see, and this is a big clue as to why, they are dead.

Our descendants possibly could. Though I cannot think of a mechanism. Such changes usually require a more general form, but who know? And yes, we do see that quite often. It is called "convergent evolution". The environment can impose evolutionary changes on organisms. Basic physics is why dolphins, sharks, tunas, and mosasaurs all have or had roughly the same shape. But when details ae examined we can see how they all evolved to that shape independently.
Yes, thank you I already knew that………but thank you anyway
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
We have a similar saying in English: Never try to peach a pig to sing. It's a waste of your timer and it annoys the pig.

Reality is a contest. It's a game with rules. Your job is to discover the rules and navigate the game as optimally as possible.


Your education is YOUR responsibility, not something you can demand of others.

Selected is the past tense of select. Fit is the past tense of fits. "I select a shirt to try on in the hope that it fits. The one I selected didn't fit."

Except in science.

That's evolution and the evidence for it.

>

Try this:
Well, since we're discussing the "reality" of evolution insofar as what people believe, how do you feel about the eternal virginity of Mary, the mother of Jesus? If it's true, would you say it's in harmony with the theory of evolution?
 
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