• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Evolution My ToE

ecco

Veteran Member
There are different opinions as to who these angels were. Most churches interpret (if they admit it was angels) that it must have been evil fallen angels because basically they seem to feel sex is a sin. Personally, I don't know, as the bible doesn't say a lot about that.
But for the purposes of this thread and your denial of all spirits, we can add the angels to the list!


You don't know?!? "the bible doesn't say a lot about that"!?! That doesn't stop you from making up stories to justify your beliefs. The bible doesn't say Australia sped across the Pacific ocean to get where it is today, but you made up a story that it did. The bible doesn't say time was different in the past, but you made up a story that it was.

You've made up a lot of stories but when it comes to all these entities like angels and demons and sons of God - nothing. Why? Is it too embarrassing for you? Does it show even more contradictions in your infallible sacred writings?
 

ecco

Veteran Member
You also skipped over this embarrassing part...
So, Jesus was not God's only begotten son! And His other sons and His daughters actually ruled some Nations. Is that your argument?

Of course Jesus is God, and God's son. He cast out demons while here on earth. There are more spirits for your denial list!

Did you conveniently miss the "God's only begotten son" part? How is Jesus the only begotten son if God also had sons who came to earth to mate with humans?
 

ecco

Veteran Member
You can make wild guesses if you like. Maybe some were bigger than others also. But if you read the verse you posted it shows two sources for the water. The windows of heaven bring water down from above, and the fountains of the deep bringing it from below.
Yes. And as you so conveniently ducked and dodged, this massive upspringing would have added to the massive turbulence in the waters causing the little ark to quickly tip over and sink. Do try to keep up with the thread.
 

dad

Undefeated
The bible doesn't say Australia sped across the Pacific ocean to get where it is today, but you made up a story that it did. The bible doesn't say time was different in the past, but you made up a story that it was.
The bible does say all men had the same language, and describes aspects of life that require a different nature actually. The bible also says all animals and people on earth started from one ark. So when we look at what was, and what now is, we can deduce that something happened. For example, are there animals that are so adapted that they are unique in one area? That tells us that adapting happened fast, and that the animals got to the area after the ark emptied. Is Australia one of those areas and is now out in the middle of the sea? That tells us it probably moved. Now, add some actual science and one can put together the puzzle.
You've made up a lot of stories but when it comes to all these entities like angels and demons and sons of God - nothing. Why? Is it too embarrassing for you? Does it show even more contradictions in your infallible sacred writings?
Your strange denial is noted. As explained both ancient history and Scripture abound with spirits. That was not made up by me or anyone else, it is a simple fact.
 

dad

Undefeated
Did you conveniently miss the "God's only begotten son" part? How is Jesus the only begotten son if God also had sons who came to earth to mate with humans?
Simple. God is responsible for the baby that Mary had on that first Christmas. God is the Father of baby Jesus. Jesus is God and came down to earth as a man. So Jesus is the son of God.

The title Son of God is a messianic title of God. The phrase sons of god simply denotes that the spirits in question were created by God. So, fallen angels, for example, can be called sons of god.
 

dad

Undefeated
Yes. And as you so conveniently ducked and dodged, this massive upspringing would have added to the massive turbulence in the waters causing the little ark to quickly tip over and sink. Do try to keep up with the thread.
No. If the founts of the deep are what shot water up, then we could also assume that there WERE no oceans as such when they first erupted! Also, let's say there were (for the sake of an example) seven major openings from which water and debris shot up. Let's say for an example that two of these were in Yucatan and the North sea area. Now, if those shot up at the beginning of the flood, that would be just a small area on a planetary scale. If I was in an ark on the far side of the planet at the time, thousands of miles away, where waters were just starting to rise, it may not do what you envision. Now we could have the other fountains of the deep also erupt in the first several weeks, but maybe they would be smaller, and, once again, it would depend on where the ark was on the planet as to what waves or other effects were caused.
Noah did have the best GPS system in all history, including modern times you know. (God's positioning system)

Simple.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
No. If the founts of the deep are what shot water up, then we could also assume that there WERE no oceans as such when they first erupted! Also, let's say there were (for the sake of an example) seven major openings from which water and debris shot up. Let's say for an example that two of these were in Yucatan and the North sea area. Now, if those shot up at the beginning of the flood, that would be just a small area on a planetary scale. If I was in an ark on the far side of the planet at the time, thousands of miles away, where waters were just starting to rise, it may not do what you envision. Now we could have the other fountains of the deep also erupt in the first several weeks, but maybe they would be smaller, and, once again, it would depend on where the ark was on the planet as to what waves or other effects were caused.
Noah did have the best GPS system in all history, including modern times you know. (God's positioning system)

Simple.
Sorry dad, but water from "the deeps" would have been incredibly hot. And it would take even more than 5 vertical miles of water to cover the Earth. No matter how you look at it you insist that Noah would have been cooked with super heated steam.
 

dad

Undefeated
Sorry dad, but water from "the deeps" would have been incredibly hot. And it would take even more than 5 vertical miles of water to cover the Earth. .
No. Not knowing the nature at that time nor the conditions and causes and details of the erupting fountains, we certainly could not say that any worldwide dangerous heat would have existed. As for where you pulled the '5 vertical miles' of water out of, heaven only knows.

The windows of heaven brought the waters above the firmament to the planet. The firmament is where stars are, by the way, so the waters seem to have come from across the universe via these windows of heaven. They would not be hot! So even if, in the former nature, some heat from some fountains of the deep did occur, it may have been a drop in the bucket compared to the waters coming from above! Yet, the great force may have ejected some rocks or mass (if Walt Brown and others are correct?) out of the influence of earth orbit!?

Simple.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Reference in a peer reviewed scientific journal halps to begin the discussion.

From: sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140113154211.htm

Discovery of new Tiktaalik roseae fossils reveals key link in evolution of hind limbs

The discovery of well-preserved pelves and a partial pelvic fin from Tiktaalik roseae, a 375 million-year-old transitional species between fish and the first legged animals, reveals that the evolution of hind legs actually began as enhanced hind fins. This challenges existing theory that large, mobile hind appendages were developed only after vertebrates transitioned to land. The fossils are described by scientists in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, online on Jan. 13.

"Previous theories, based on the best available data, propose that a shift occurred from 'front-wheel drive' locomotion in fish to more of a 'four-wheel drive' in tetrapods," said Neil Shubin, PhD, Robert R. Bensley Distinguished Service Professor of Anatomy at the University of Chicago and corresponding author of the study, which marks his inaugural article as a member of the National Academy of Sciences. "But it looks like this shift actually began to happen in fish, not in limbed animals."

Discovered in 2004 by Shubin and co-authors Edward Daeschler, PhD, Associate Curator of Vertebrate Zoology at the Academy of Natural Sciences of Drexel University, and the late Farish A. Jenkins, Jr., PhD, of Harvard University, Tiktaalik roseae represents the best-known transitional species between fish and land-dwelling tetrapods.

A lobe-finned fish with a broad flat head and sharp teeth, Tiktaalik looked like a cross between a fish and a crocodile, growing up to a length of 9 feet as it hunted in shallow freshwater environments. It had gills, scales and fins, but also had tetrapod-like features such as a mobile neck, robust ribcage and primitive lungs. In particular, its large forefins had shoulders, elbows and partial wrists, which allowed it to support itself on ground.

However, only specimen blocks containing the front portion of Tiktaalik have been described thus far. As the researchers investigated additional blocks recovered from their original and subsequent expeditions to the dig site in northern Canada, they discovered the rear portion of Tiktaalik, which contained the pelves as well as partial pelvic fin material. The fossils included the complete pelvis of the original 'type' specimen, making a direct comparison of the front and rear appendages of a single animal possible.

The scientists were immediately struck by the pelvis, which was comparable to those of some early tetrapods. The Tiktaalik pelvic girdle was nearly identical in size to its shoulder girdle, a tetrapod-like characteristic. It possessed a prominent ball and socket hip joint, which connected to a highly mobile femur that could extend beneath the body. Crests on the hip for muscle attachment indicated strength and advanced fin function. And although no femur bone was found, pelvic fin material, including long fin rays, indicated the hind fin was at least as long and as complex as its forefin.

"This is an amazing pelvis, particularly the hip socket, which is very different from anything that we knew of in the lineage leading up to limbed vertebrates," Daeschler said. "Tiktaalik was a combination of primitive and advanced features. Here, not only were the features distinct, but they suggest an advanced function. They appear to have used the fin in a way that's more suggestive of the way a limb gets used."

Tiktaalik pelves were still clearly fish-like, with primitive features such as an undivided skeletal configuration, as opposed to the three-part pelvic girdle of early tetrapods. However, the expanded size, mobility and robusticity of the pelvic girdle, hip joint and fin of Tiktaalik made a wide range of motor behaviors possible.

"It's reasonable to suppose with those big fin rays that Tiktaalik used its hind fins to swim like a paddle," Shubin said. "But it's possible it could walk with them as well. African lungfish living today have similarly large pelves, and we showed in 2011 that they walk underwater on the bottom."

"Regardless of the gait Tiktaalik used, it's clear that the emphasis on hind appendages and pelvic-propelled locomotion is a trend that began in fish, and was later exaggerated during the origin of tetrapods," Shubin said.

Shubin will be hosting a three-part TV series based on his book "Your Inner Fish," on PBS in April 2014, tracing the origins of the human body through the DNA of living animals and the legacies of now-extinct, but biologically important species such as Tiktaalik roseae.


Story Source:

Materials provided by University of Chicago Medical Center. Note: Content may be edited for style and length.

Journal Reference:

  1. Neil H. Shubin, Edward B. Daeschler, and Farish A. Jenkins, Jr. Pelvic girdle and fin of Tiktaalik roseae. PNAS, January 13, 2014 DOI: 10.1073/pnas.1322559111
F5.medium.gif

The ancient fish Tiktaalik... is thought to be an ancestor of land animals.

The latest findings are based on the fossils of five Tiktaalik specimens recovered from Ellesmere Island in Nanuvut, northern Canada. The scientists have yet to find a Tiktaalik hind fin bone, or any remains that might shed light on the origins of toes. "The hind fin of Tiktaalik is tantalisingly incomplete," Shubin told the Guardian.
Source - Tiktaalik fossils reveal how fish evolved into four-legged land animals

Tiktaalik - Wikipedia
Tiktaalik is technically a fish, complete with scales and gills - but it has the flattened head of a crocodile and unusual fins.

In 2014, the discovery of the animal's pelvic girdle was announced; it was strongly built, indicating the animal could have used them for moving in shallow water and across mudflats. Neil Shubin and Ted Daeschler, the leaders of the team, have been searching Ellesmere Island for fossils since 2000.
We're making the hypothesis that this animal was specialized for living in shallow stream systems, perhaps swampy habitats, perhaps even to some of the ponds. And maybe occasionally, using its very specialized fins, for moving up overland. And that's what is particularly important here. The animal is developing features which will eventually allow animals to exploit land.

Phylogenetic position
2006 - 2010
The phylogenetic analysis by Daeschler et al. placed Tiktaalik as a sister taxon to Elpistostege and directly above Panderichthys preceded by Eusthenopteron. Tiktaalik was thus inserted below Acanthostega and Ichthyostega as a transitional form and a true "missing link"

Such order of the phylogenetic tree was initially adopted by other experts, most notably by Per Ahlberg and Jennifer Clack. However, it was questioned in a 2008 paper by Boisvert at al. who noted that Panderichthys, due to its more derived distal portion, might be closer to tetrapods than Tiktaalik or even that it was convergent with tetrapods. Ahlberg, co-author of the study, considered the possibility of Tiktaalik's fin having been "an evolutionary return to a more primitive form."

2010 - now
In January 2010, a group of paleontologists (including Ahlberg) published a paper accompanied by extensive supplementary material (discussed also in a Nature documentary) which showed that first tetrapods appeared long before Tiktaalik and other elpistostegids.
.................
Both Tiktaalik's discoverers were skeptical about the Zachelmie trackways. Edward Daeschler said that trace evidence was not enough for him to modify the theory of tetrapod evolution, while Neil Shubin argued that Tiktaalik could have produced very similar footprints (in a later study Shubin expressed a significantly modified opinion that some of the Zachelmie footprints, those which lacked digits, may have been made by walking fish). However, Ahlberg insisted that those tracks could not have possibly been formed either by natural processes or by transitional species such as Tiktaalik or Panderichthys. Instead, the authors of the publication suggested ichthyostegalians as trackmakers, based on available pes morphology of those animals. However, a paper published in 2015 that undertook a critical review of Devonian tetrapod footprints called into question the designation of the Zachelmie marks and instead suggested an origin as fish nests/feeding traces. An earlier study in 2012 indicated that Zachelmie trackmakers were even more advanced than Ichthyostega in terms of quadrupedalism. Grzegorz Niedźwiedzki's reconstruction of one of the trackmakers was identical to that of Tulerpeton.

Prof. Narkiewicz, co-author of the article on the Zachelmie trackways, claimed that the Polish "discovery has disproved the theory that elpistostegids were the ancestors of tetrapods", a notion partially shared by Philippe Janvier. There have been a number of new hypotheses suggested as to a possible origin and phylogenetic position of the elpistostegids (including Tiktaalik)...

Estimates published after the discovery of Zachelmie tracks suggested that digited tetrapods may have appeared as early as 427.4 Ma ago and questioned attempts to read absolute timing of evolutionary events in early tetrapod evolution from stratigraphy.

Until more data become available, the phylogenetic position of Tiktaalik and other elpistostegids remains uncertain.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
F5.medium.gif

The ancient fish Tiktaalik... is thought to be an ancestor of land animals.

The latest findings are based on the fossils of five Tiktaalik specimens recovered from Ellesmere Island in Nanuvut, northern Canada. The scientists have yet to find a Tiktaalik hind fin bone, or any remains that might shed light on the origins of toes. "The hind fin of Tiktaalik is tantalisingly incomplete," Shubin told the Guardian.
Source - Tiktaalik fossils reveal how fish evolved into four-legged land animals

Tiktaalik - Wikipedia
Tiktaalik is technically a fish, complete with scales and gills - but it has the flattened head of a crocodile and unusual fins.

In 2014, the discovery of the animal's pelvic girdle was announced; it was strongly built, indicating the animal could have used them for moving in shallow water and across mudflats. Neil Shubin and Ted Daeschler, the leaders of the team, have been searching Ellesmere Island for fossils since 2000.


Phylogenetic position
2006 - 2010
The phylogenetic analysis by Daeschler et al. placed Tiktaalik as a sister taxon to Elpistostege and directly above Panderichthys preceded by Eusthenopteron. Tiktaalik was thus inserted below Acanthostega and Ichthyostega as a transitional form and a true "missing link"

Such order of the phylogenetic tree was initially adopted by other experts, most notably by Per Ahlberg and Jennifer Clack. However, it was questioned in a 2008 paper by Boisvert at al. who noted that Panderichthys, due to its more derived distal portion, might be closer to tetrapods than Tiktaalik or even that it was convergent with tetrapods. Ahlberg, co-author of the study, considered the possibility of Tiktaalik's fin having been "an evolutionary return to a more primitive form."

2010 - now
In January 2010, a group of paleontologists (including Ahlberg) published a paper accompanied by extensive supplementary material (discussed also in a Nature documentary) which showed that first tetrapods appeared long before Tiktaalik and other elpistostegids.
.................
Both Tiktaalik's discoverers were skeptical about the Zachelmie trackways. Edward Daeschler said that trace evidence was not enough for him to modify the theory of tetrapod evolution, while Neil Shubin argued that Tiktaalik could have produced very similar footprints (in a later study Shubin expressed a significantly modified opinion that some of the Zachelmie footprints, those which lacked digits, may have been made by walking fish). However, Ahlberg insisted that those tracks could not have possibly been formed either by natural processes or by transitional species such as Tiktaalik or Panderichthys. Instead, the authors of the publication suggested ichthyostegalians as trackmakers, based on available pes morphology of those animals. However, a paper published in 2015 that undertook a critical review of Devonian tetrapod footprints called into question the designation of the Zachelmie marks and instead suggested an origin as fish nests/feeding traces. An earlier study in 2012 indicated that Zachelmie trackmakers were even more advanced than Ichthyostega in terms of quadrupedalism. Grzegorz Niedźwiedzki's reconstruction of one of the trackmakers was identical to that of Tulerpeton.

Prof. Narkiewicz, co-author of the article on the Zachelmie trackways, claimed that the Polish "discovery has disproved the theory that elpistostegids were the ancestors of tetrapods", a notion partially shared by Philippe Janvier. There have been a number of new hypotheses suggested as to a possible origin and phylogenetic position of the elpistostegids (including Tiktaalik)...

Estimates published after the discovery of Zachelmie tracks suggested that digited tetrapods may have appeared as early as 427.4 Ma ago and questioned attempts to read absolute timing of evolutionary events in early tetrapod evolution from stratigraphy.

Until more data become available, the phylogenetic position of Tiktaalik and other elpistostegids remains uncertain.

All science is to a degree uncertain. 'Arguing from ignorance' is not an argument against anything. You have not presented a coherent argument against the current knowledge of evolution as cited. You sidestepping the fact that there is more evidence for the evolutionary lineage between fish and amphibians.
 
Last edited:

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
No. Not knowing the nature at that time nor the conditions and causes and details of the erupting fountains, we certainly could not say that any worldwide dangerous heat would have existed. As for where you pulled the '5 vertical miles' of water out of, heaven only knows.

The windows of heaven brought the waters above the firmament to the planet. The firmament is where stars are, by the way, so the waters seem to have come from across the universe via these windows of heaven. They would not be hot! So even if, in the former nature, some heat from some fountains of the deep did occur, it may have been a drop in the bucket compared to the waters coming from above! Yet, the great force may have ejected some rocks or mass (if Walt Brown and others are correct?) out of the influence of earth orbit!?

Simple.
No, we have evidence that there was no change. One would have to be rather foolish to make up changes for no rational reason that cannot be supported by evidence.

And I can see that gravity is another concept that you do not understand. Denying potential energy is not wise at all.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
F5.medium.gif

The ancient fish Tiktaalik... is thought to be an ancestor of land animals.

The latest findings are based on the fossils of five Tiktaalik specimens recovered from Ellesmere Island in Nanuvut, northern Canada. The scientists have yet to find a Tiktaalik hind fin bone, or any remains that might shed light on the origins of toes. "The hind fin of Tiktaalik is tantalisingly incomplete," Shubin told the Guardian.
Source - Tiktaalik fossils reveal how fish evolved into four-legged land animals

Tiktaalik - Wikipedia
Tiktaalik is technically a fish, complete with scales and gills - but it has the flattened head of a crocodile and unusual fins.

In 2014, the discovery of the animal's pelvic girdle was announced; it was strongly built, indicating the animal could have used them for moving in shallow water and across mudflats. Neil Shubin and Ted Daeschler, the leaders of the team, have been searching Ellesmere Island for fossils since 2000.


Phylogenetic position
2006 - 2010
The phylogenetic analysis by Daeschler et al. placed Tiktaalik as a sister taxon to Elpistostege and directly above Panderichthys preceded by Eusthenopteron. Tiktaalik was thus inserted below Acanthostega and Ichthyostega as a transitional form and a true "missing link"

Such order of the phylogenetic tree was initially adopted by other experts, most notably by Per Ahlberg and Jennifer Clack. However, it was questioned in a 2008 paper by Boisvert at al. who noted that Panderichthys, due to its more derived distal portion, might be closer to tetrapods than Tiktaalik or even that it was convergent with tetrapods. Ahlberg, co-author of the study, considered the possibility of Tiktaalik's fin having been "an evolutionary return to a more primitive form."

2010 - now
In January 2010, a group of paleontologists (including Ahlberg) published a paper accompanied by extensive supplementary material (discussed also in a Nature documentary) which showed that first tetrapods appeared long before Tiktaalik and other elpistostegids.
.................
Both Tiktaalik's discoverers were skeptical about the Zachelmie trackways. Edward Daeschler said that trace evidence was not enough for him to modify the theory of tetrapod evolution, while Neil Shubin argued that Tiktaalik could have produced very similar footprints (in a later study Shubin expressed a significantly modified opinion that some of the Zachelmie footprints, those which lacked digits, may have been made by walking fish). However, Ahlberg insisted that those tracks could not have possibly been formed either by natural processes or by transitional species such as Tiktaalik or Panderichthys. Instead, the authors of the publication suggested ichthyostegalians as trackmakers, based on available pes morphology of those animals. However, a paper published in 2015 that undertook a critical review of Devonian tetrapod footprints called into question the designation of the Zachelmie marks and instead suggested an origin as fish nests/feeding traces. An earlier study in 2012 indicated that Zachelmie trackmakers were even more advanced than Ichthyostega in terms of quadrupedalism. Grzegorz Niedźwiedzki's reconstruction of one of the trackmakers was identical to that of Tulerpeton.

Prof. Narkiewicz, co-author of the article on the Zachelmie trackways, claimed that the Polish "discovery has disproved the theory that elpistostegids were the ancestors of tetrapods", a notion partially shared by Philippe Janvier. There have been a number of new hypotheses suggested as to a possible origin and phylogenetic position of the elpistostegids (including Tiktaalik)...

Estimates published after the discovery of Zachelmie tracks suggested that digited tetrapods may have appeared as early as 427.4 Ma ago and questioned attempts to read absolute timing of evolutionary events in early tetrapod evolution from stratigraphy.

Until more data become available, the phylogenetic position of Tiktaalik and other elpistostegids remains uncertain.
Tiktaalik is not necessarily an ancestor, but it is clearly transitional. Too many think of evolution as if it were working towards some goal when at best it could be said to be naturally exploratory. New species are constantly branching off. Some are successful and some fail. And the arrival of a new species that is closer to the line that led to us and is more recent does not mean that other older forms would instantly go extinct. There are "more advanced"_tetrapods than Tiktaalik, that does not mean that it is not transitional.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Let's be clear about what "evolution" is. In the context we've been using it (biology), according to the primary source we've been using evolution is "descent with modification", and "encompasses small-scale evolution (changes in gene — or more precisely and technically, allele — frequency in a population from one generation to the next) and large-scale evolution (the descent of different species from a common ancestor over many generations".

Relative to what you just said, evolution is not "a way of thinking about the world" or "a way of thinking about the universe or society".

So the only way I can see that you can make this argument is by changing the definitions of words to suit your needs.


By that definition medicine is a philosophy. Are you of the opinion that medical science is a philosophy as well?
I'm a bit confused.
Perhaps I should have made a special note, informing you, that this is the response to the questions you asked in the thread "New Ohio law allows students to be scientifically wrong."
Sorry about that.
You probably know by now, I am quite particular about organization. ;) I like to package things appropriately.
So first, I like to give respect to the OP's poster, by not clustering it with a different topic, and so I didn't think this discussion belonged on that thread. I think it fits here nicely. Moreover, it makes it easier for me to keep track of topics I am more interested in. :D

If you recall from that thread, we were discussing UCA. Am I right?
So, in other words, we are discussing a concept, of the theory of evolution.
Also, do you disagree with the definition of philosophy, I provided?

Yes, all fields of science "try to answer questions". That's pretty much what science is all about.


That's simply false. If you believe it to be true, then I think you should demonstrate your claim to be true.
You want me to demonstrate that... Oops. I made the mistake of saying the theory of evolution.
Just keep in mind when I say the theory of evolution, I am referring to what I mentioned in the OP.
So just in case... this:
The theory of evolution that is, the part that says, "All life descended from one universal common ancestor", is based entirely on an idea, which is based on the presupposition that it must be true, based entirely on assumptions, guesswork, and made up stories designed as evidence to support observed facts.

Hold on a minute.

So you believe there isn't one single piece of evidence in support of UCA? Not even one bit of evidence?
I don't believe there is. From my observations there is none. Zero, Zilch, Zip.
There are good stories though, and I can understand why someone might imagine that creatures can evolve a completely different body, over millions or billions of years, but that's only imagination.
It still requires faith to think that, just because animals adapt different traits, and features, they can somehow .evolve to a completely different creature It is still a belief.
Surely you must agree with me, to be reasonable. Right?
s0801.gif


Can you please clarify what you think a "transitional fossil" is? If we find a fossil, what sort of characteristics would indicate to you that it might be a "transitional"?
A trans who? :grin:
Just playing dumb. :)
What I would need to know, before I ca answer a question like that is, transitional from what to what. and why is there a transitional?
What you appear to be asking me to do is imagine what someone's idea might look like.
Wasn't transitional fossils based on an idea by a dude named Darwin? Should he not be the one to identify what his idea should look like? Did he?
As far as I know, he only said they should exist, in more quantity than their ancestor...
Page 124 - On the Origin of Species
...so must the number of intermediate varieties, which have formerly existed on the earth, be truly enormous. Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against my theory.

Oh yeah. He also said that not finding them would falsify his theory, and what do you know, over a century later, what he proposed was not found, and falsification never happened. The theory endured decades after. o_O
What is interesting about this situation, is that it was not a case of finding a transitional, and then claiming that it demonstrates UCA. It was the reverse. The idea that UCA is true, and claiming that transitional should exist to demonstrate that UCA is true.
So in a case like that, it can be anyone's opinion what a transitional would look like.
So even if I were to say, 'Hey, I think it would like like this."
Editorial_cartoon_depicting_Charles_Darwin_as_an_ape_1871-e1439222013898.jpg
Someone like Richard Dawkins could say, "nPeace, you idiot. You blundering, babbling Creationist fool. It doesn't have to look like that. It could look like this."
fossil_fish.jpg

... and the scientific camp... except for the few ignorant ones like me, would agree - "Richard. By the gods. You're right! :astonished: LOL.
What would a transitional look like to you Fly? Exactly.

The other thing is the circular reason I mentioned...
Preconception, or Presumption = UCA is true. Transitional fossils exist. Now reverse it.
Are there really transitional fossils? Only because it is presumed that UCA is true.
The evidence is interpreted, and can be interpreted a number of ways. Yes. Not a question.

Do you dispute that A. anamensis has shared traits with humans and other apes?
We share traits with crabs. What is the point of your question, Fly?

I don't understand how you came to that conclusion based solely on what you've posted. Is there more to your position, or is it "Here are some pics, that's all they have, so it's a belief"?
Oh, okay. The reason I posted the pictures, was simply to show how easy it is to have an idea, and support that idea with other ideas - interpreting circumstantial evidence.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
So hypothetically, if you were to be presented with evidence of UCA would your first reaction be something like "this is of Satan"?
If God appeared in front of you, would your first reaction be, I must be dreaming, or in a quantum hologram?
See how easy a hypothetical can be to answer. :smiley:

All the evidence I have seen presented for UCA is, as I said before, circumstantial, and interpreted to fit one conclusion. Aside from the fact that the evidence causes - even to this day - the theory to have adjustments, and additions made to it, and the mechanisms are still not certain, it has some major challenges.

You really have no idea the level of amazement I have experienced when I consider that people actually believe this stuff.
Whenever I look over the lines of evidence presented as an argument - because that's what it is - in support of UCA, I actually feel like... 'why are you wasting my time with this :nomouth:?' Then I get this uninterested feeling, an boredom, come over me.
There is only one thing keeping me from going out my mind. If I did not have that, I would probably be asking myself, "Am I blind? What are they seeing, that I am not?"
However, having these scriptures in mind, I can understand why people believe in the idea of UCA.
(2 Thessalonians 2:11, 12)
11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.

(2 Corinthians 4:3, 4)
3 If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.

(Revelation 12:9)
9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.


It also is clear to me why it happened to them -
(Romans 1:18-23)
18 For God’s wrath is being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who are suppressing the truth in an unrighteous way, 19because what may be known about God is clearly evident among them, for God made it clear to them. 20 For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable. 21For although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God nor did they thank him, but they became empty-headed in their reasonings and their senseless hearts became darkened. 22Although claiming they were wise, they became foolish 23and turned the glory of the incorruptible God into something like the image of corruptible man and birds and four-footed creatures and reptiles.

So it actually connects to what I said earlier about knowing the truth.
One who remains in the word is set free. I fully understand what it means when the scripture says...
Jehovah is the Spirit, and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom. (2 Corinthians 3:17)

I understand that one can disconnect from God's spirit by rejecting the truth. So when religious people cling to these ideas... like UCA, it's no surprise. They already rejected the Bible anyway.
Besides,anything that is so attractive as to have Atheist like piranha in a feeding frenzy,
ArcticDecentKiwi-size_restricted.gif

...can't be good.

Being completely honest with you. I would even go as far as the "Cross my heart and hope to die" thing, but I don't do that, but from where I am sitting, all the evidence points to creation by an intelligent designer, with a specific purpose.
I mean, the fact that the earth is just right for life, is in harmony with what the Bible says at Isaiah 45:18 - For this is what Jehovah says, The Creator of the heavens, the true God, The One who formed the earth, its Maker who firmly established it, Who did not create it simply for nothing, but formed it to be inhabited: “I am Jehovah, and there is no one else.
Just think of that - an enormously vast universe with billions of galaxies, stars, and perhaps millions of planets, and only one is inhabited... only one supports life, that we know of. The Bible got it right... again.

Time and again the Bible proves true in what it said ages ago, and people reject it. That is more convincing to me than someone saying the Bible is full of myths. Because the Bible even said that people would reject it, and gave the reason why.
Even the foods we eat are precisely what we need for living long healthy lives. Do you know that it matters what foods you eat, and there are actually brain foods, heart foods, fingernail and toenail foods, etc...
I mean...
bewildered-clipart-puzzled-face-3.jpg


I would think that I would have to be absolutely blind, and led by the hand of a con artist, to accept the story telling from the Darwinian concept.
Even if I were an Atheist, I don't think I would remain one, after looking at all this evidence. At least that's what I think.
I can see how one may be led to believe in Darwinism though, but again, it goes back to whether one knows the truth, or if one is misled... in my view.

More to come on the evidence that persons claim is so compelling...
 
Last edited:

nPeace

Veteran Member
All science is to a degree uncertain. 'Arguing from ignorance' is not an argument against anything. You have not presented a coherent argument against the current knowledge of evolution as cited. You sidestepping the fact that there is more evidence for the evolutionary lineage between fish and amphibians.
'Arguing from ignorance' is not an argument against anything.
So what are you doing?
I did not sidestep anything, because you presented nothing to sidestep.
You ignore the fact that your argument that the evidence supporting UCA is conclusive and verifiable, is not true.
The information I presented denies that, so maybe you are the one sidestepping and arguing from incredulity at that.

Here are more papers for you...
Comparative anatomy - the study of similarities and differences in anatomy...

Having a preconceived idea, one can use these concepts to engage in...
Circular reasoning
All life diverged from a common ancestor, therefore there would be similarities in structure.
There are similarities in structure, therefore all life diverged from a common ancestor.

Anyone can use such reasoning.
Life was created by a universal designer, therefore there would be similarities in structure of design.
There are similarities in structure of design, therefore life was created by a universal designer.

Facts checklist
Comparative Anatomy
Source - Phylogenetic Comparative Methods can Provide Important Insights into the Evolution of Toxic Weaponry
:heavycheck:Comparative methods for diversification are amongst the most controversial and debated areas of comparative biology.

Phylogenectics
Source - https://www.researchgate.net/public...tations_of_Phylogenies_in_Comparative_Biology
:heavycheck:Phylogenies are fundamental to comparative biology, but they are not the be-all and end-all. Phylogenies are powerful tools for understanding the past, but like any tool, they have their limitations. In addition, phylogenies are much more informative about pattern than they are about process.

Felsenstein (1985, p. 14) argued that “phylogenies are fundamental to comparative biology. There is no doing it without taking them into account.” Within a few years, this viewpoint swept through the systematic and evolutionary biology communities. Dobzhansky’s famous quote has frequently been reworked to “nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of phylogeny”

...we would expect that phylogenetic methods would not be informative about traits that evolve too readily within a species, because such traits would tend to differ relatively greatly among closely related species, leaving little imprint of the historical record.
A case in point is the study of the geography of speciation. Ernst Mayr (1976) popularized the view that speciation almost always occurs in allopatry, and ever since then, controversy has raged, sometimes more fiercely than others, about how likely speciation is to occur in other geographical contexts. Quickly after the emergence of phylogenetic thinking, researchers suggested that phylogenies could be used to study the geography of speciation (Lynch 1989; Brooks and McLennan 1991). By reconstructing the ancestral ranges of species, one could infer whether two species had been sym-, allo-, para-, or peripatric at the time they diverged.

:heavycheck:The phylogenetic tree is a hypothesis, wrought with challenges and controversies.
Source - Phylogenetics - Wikipedia
In biology, phylogenetics is the study of the evolutionary history and relationships among individuals or groups of organisms (e.g. species, or populations). These relationships are discovered through phylogenetic inference methods that evaluate observed heritable traits, such as DNA sequences or morphology under a model of evolution of these traits. The result of these analyses is a phylogeny (also known as a phylogenetic tree) - a diagrammatic hypothesis about the history of the evolutionary relationships of a group of organisms.

More circular reasoning.
All life diverged from a common ancestor.
Create a model to represent the evolution of traits.
Build a tree of the evolution of organisms based on studying traits (using comparative methods) that evolved.
All life on Earth is part of a single phylogenetic tree, indicating common ancestry.

Source - http://nathanwhelan.com/assests/Whelan_et_al_2015_ICB.pdf
Employing Phylogenomics to Resolve the Relationships among Cnidarians, Ctenophores, Sponges, Placozoans, and Bilaterians
Synopsis Despite an explosion in the amount of sequence data, phylogenomics has failed to settle controversy regarding some critical nodes on the animal tree of life. Understanding relationships among Bilateria, Ctenophora, Cnidaria, Placozoa, and Porifera is essential for studying how complex traits such as neurons, muscles, and gastrulation have evolved. Recent studies have cast doubt on the historical viewpoint that sponges are sister to all other animal lineages
with recent studies recovering ctenophores as sister. However, the ctenophore–sister hypothesis has been criticized as unrealistic and caused by systematic error.


Introduction
Phylogeny is the cornerstone of comparative biology, and interpretations of phenotypic evolution hinge on accurate hypotheses of organismal relationships (Felsenstein 1985). Transcriptomic and genomic sequences offer a nearly overwhelming source of information for inferring relationships, with some studies employing hundreds of genes. Despite great potential, phylogenomics has thus far failed to confidently resolve relationships of many animal groups (Dunn et al. 2014). Inferring relationships among major metazoan lineages (i.e., Bilateria, Ctenophora, Cnidaria, Placozoa, and Porifera) has been particularly difficult, with numerous recent studies recovering conflicting phylogenetic topologies

In recent years, systematists have faced many theoretical and methodological challenges associated with analyzing high-throughput sequencing data for phylogenetic inference, and a major bottleneck for modern phylogenetic studies is the analysis of data, rather than the generation of sequences. Modern phylogenomics requires a new set of expertise and methodologies compared with phylogenetic studies with only one or a few genes.

Source - Rethinking phylogenetic comparative methods
Rethinking phylogenetic comparative methods
...unresolved challenge permeates not just tests for discrete character correlations, but nearly every method of finding associations in comparative methods


Morphology
:heavycheck:Morphology is a highly subjective method, and has problems.
Source - Morphology (biology) - Wikipedia
Morphology and classification
Most taxa differ morphologically from other taxa. Typically, closely related taxa differ much less than more distantly related ones, but there are exceptions to this. Cryptic species are species which look very similar, or perhaps even outwardly identical, but are reproductively isolated. Conversely, sometimes unrelated taxa acquire a similar appearance as a result of convergent evolution or even mimicry. In addition, there can be morphological differences within a species, such as in Apoica flavissima where queens are significantly smaller than workers. A further problem with relying on morphological data is that what may appear, morphologically speaking, to be two distinct species, may in fact be shown by DNA analysis to be a single species. The significance of these differences can be examined through the use of allometric engineering in which one or both species are manipulated to phenocopy the other species.
A step relevant to the evaluation of morphology between traits/features within species, includes an assessment of the terms: homology and homoplasy. Homology between features indicate that those features have been derived from a common ancestor.Alternatively, homoplasy between features describes those that can resemble each other, but derive independently via parallel or convergent evolution.

UCA
:heavycheck:UCA is a hypothesis that has proven difficult to test, and has not been verified.
Source - Was the universal common ancestry proved?
Was the universal common ancestry proved?
The question of whether or not all life on Earth shares a single common ancestor has been a central problem of evolutionary biology since Darwin. Although the theory of universal common ancestry (UCA) has gathered a compelling list of circumstantial evidence, as given in ref. 2, there has been no attempt to test statistically the UCA hypothesis among the three domains of life (eubacteria, archaebacteria and eukaryotes) by using molecular sequences. Theobald2 recently challenged this problem with a formal statistical test, and concluded that the UCA hypothesis holds. Although his attempt is the first step towards establishing the UCA theory with a solid statistical basis, we think that the test of Theobald is not sufficient enough to reject the alternative hypothesis of the separate origins of life, despite the Akaike information criterion (AIC) of model selection3 giving a clear distinction between the competing hypotheses.


Although UCA is widely assumed, it has rarely been subjected to formal quantitative testing, and this has led to critical commentary emphasizing the intrinsic technical difficulties in empirically evaluating a theory of such broad scope. Furthermore, several researchers have proposed that early life was characterized by rampant horizontal gene transfer, leading some to question the monophyly of life.
...to be continued.
 
Last edited:

nPeace

Veteran Member
Homology
Source - On universal common ancestry, sequence similarity, and phylogenetic structure: the sins of P-values and the virtues of Bayesian evidence
On universal common ancestry - sequence similarity and phylogenetic structure
Universal common ancestry: The qualitative evidence and need for a formal test
Universal common ancestry is the hypothesis that all extant terrestrial life shares a common genetic heritage. The classic arguments for common ancestry include many independent, converging lines of evidence from various fields, including biogeography, palaeontology, comparative morphology, developmental biology, and molecular biology. The great majority of this evidence, however, is qualitative in nature and only directly addresses the relationships of limited sets of higher taxa, such as the common ancestry of metazoans or the common ancestry of plants.
The broader question of universal common ancestry is much more ambitious and correspondingly difficult to assess. ...
Are Europeans, Euryarchaeota, Euglena, Yersinia, yew, and yeast all genetically related? Of course, biologists routinely incorporate all of these taxa into a universal phylogenetic tree, which is an explicit representation of the genealogical relationships among these diverse taxa. But any group of taxa can be connected in a tree; one can even make a phylogenetic tree from random sequences or characters. Yet is a tree itself justifiable in light of the evidence? In a paper that motivated my original test of common ancestry, Sober and Steel set out the issue very clearly:

When biologists attempt to reconstruct the phylogenetic relationships that link a set of species, they usually assume that the taxa under study are genealogically related. Whether one uses cladistic parsimony, distance measures, or maximum likelihood methods, the typical question is which tree is the best one, not whether there is a tree in the first place.

This is the question I set out to answer: Is there a universal tree — or, more broadly, a universal pattern of genetic relatedness — in the first place?

Several researchers have recently questioned the nature and status of the theory of UCA or have emphasized the difficulties in testing a theory of such broad scope. For example, Ford Doolittle has disputed whether objective evidence for UCA, as described by a universal tree, is possible even in principle:

Indeed, one is hard pressed to find some theory-free body of evidence that such a single universal pattern relating all life forms exists independently of our habit of thinking that it should.

This sentiment was echoed also by K&W, who concluded that a "formal demonstration of UCA … remains elusive and might not be feasible in principle.". Such criticisms of UCA point to a need for a formal test, similar to the formal tests of fundamental physical theories like general relativity and quantum mechanics.

Darwin originally proposed UCA in 1859, yet was characteristically circumspect, only committing to the view that "animals are descended from at most only four or five progenitors, and plants from an equal or lesser number". The hypothesis of UCA was evidently an open question at least until the mid 1960's, when a debate about UCA and the universality of the genetic code (then as yet undeciphered) played out in the pages of Science. One of the most celebrated arguments for UCA is based on the fact that the genetic code is identical, or nearly so, in all known life. The argument had been circling informally for some years before Hinegardner and Engelberg first presented it in detail:

Because the genetic code should remain invariant, its constancy can be used to establish the number of primordial ancestors from which all (present) organisms are derived. If, for example, the code is universal … then all existing organisms would be descendants of a single organism or species. If the code is not universal, the number of different codes should represent the number of different primordial ancestors …
Hinegardner and Engelberg's reasoning hinges on the assumption that the genetic code is so important for fundamental genetic processes that any mutations in the code would be lethal. Carl Woese criticized this argument, noting its dependence on the assumption that the genetic code is a "historical accident" and must not be "chemically determined". Woese was a proponent of the "stereochemical hypothesis", which holds that the association between a certain codon and its respective amino acid is dictated by chemical phenomena — that is, the observed code is required somehow by the laws of physics, perhaps by binding affinity of the nucleic acid codon to its corresponding amino acid. Woese was also sceptical that the code was "frozen", and he postulated plausible mechanisms by which a degenerate code could evolve. If the code were somehow determined by physicochemical principles and evolvable, then multiple origins of life could conceivably converge independently on the same code. However, the stereochemical hypothesis was considered and largely disregarded by most researchers, including Francis Crick, due to a lack of evidence and difficulty in imagining a possible mechanism.

In 1968, Crick still presented the "frozen accident" argument for UCA with some reservation. But by 1973, in his famous essay on the explanatory power of evolutionary theory, Theodosius Dobzhansky laid out the existing evidence for UCA as if it were beyond dispute. According to Dobzhansky, the primary support for UCA is given by several key molecular similarities shared by all known life: (1) the "universal" genetic code, (2) nucleic acid as the genetic material, (3) shared polymers such as proteins, RNAs, lipids, and carbohydrates, and (4) core metabolism. These are today still the main arguments for UCA.

The standard presentation of this evidence is, however, strictly qualitative; it does not quantitatively assess the likelihood that these commonalities could be arrived at independently from multiple origins. Each of Dobzhansky's arguments for UCA has its weaknesses, and Sober and Steel provide several criticisms of these standard arguments [11]. While a detailed analysis of these lines of evidence for UCA is beyond the scope of this article, as a case study let us briefly revisit the "universal" genetic code, widely considered the most persuasive evidence for UCA

Sequence similarity and homology are not equivalent
One common thread among the various arguments for common ancestry is the inference from certain biological similarities to homology. However, with apologies to Fisher, similarity is not homology. It is widely assumed that strong sequence similarity indicates genetic kinship. Nonetheless, as I and many others have argued , sequence similarity is strictly an empirical observation; homology, on the other hand, is a hypothesis intended to explain the similarity. Common ancestry is only one possible mechanism that results in similarity between sequences. In a landmark paper on the inference of homology from sequence similarity, the late Walter Fitch presented the problem as follows:

Now two proteins may appear similar because they descend with divergence from a common ancestral gene (i.e., are homologous in a time-honoured meaning dating back at the least to Darwin's Origin of Species) or because they descend with convergence from separate ancestral genes (i.e., are analogous). It is nevertheless possible that the restrictions imposed by a functional fitness may cause sufficient convergence to produce an apparent genetic relatedness. Therefore, the demonstration that two present-day sequences are significantly similar, by either chemical or genetic criteria, still must necessarily leave undecided the question whether their similarity is the result of a convergent process or all that remains from a divergent process. For example, it is at least philosophically possible to argue that fungal cytochromes c are not truly homologous to the metazoan cytochromes c, i.e., they just look homologous.

Colin Patterson made a similar argument, explicitly pointing out that statistically significant sequence similarity does not necessarily force the conclusion of homology:

… given that homologies are hypothetical, how do we test them? How do we decide that an observed similarity is a valid inference of common ancestry? If similarity must be discriminated from homology, its assessment (statistically significant or not, for example) is not necessarily synonymous with testing a hypothesis of homology.
How, then, would we know if highly similar biological sequences had independent origins or not? In all but the most trivial cases we do not have direct, independent evidence for homology — rather, we conventionally infer the answer based on some qualitative argument, often involving sequence similarity as a premise.

@shunyadragon where is the objective verifiable evidence? We are still waiting.
 
Last edited:

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Yeah. Southern slave owners quoted Darwin to justify owning and beating slaves.

Oh, wait.

No, they didn't.

They cited your holy scripture.

How Christian Slaveholders Used the Bible to Justify Slavery
How Christian Slaveholders Used the Bible to Justify Slavery

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...699e8e-6512-11e9-82ba-fcfeff232e8f_story.html

The Bible was used to justify slavery.

History Engine: Tools for Collaborative Education and Research | Episodes

Christianity as a Justification for Slavery
In the Old Testament, God and the Patriarchs approve. As for the New Testament, Jesus and the Apostles show that slavery is permissible. Therefore, slavery, to those who wrote the article, was not an anti-Christian institution. It was just the opposite. Furthermore, they added, it is impious to say slavery is anti-Christian because such a conclusion contradicted God.


"Inferior" indigenous tribes, in the Americas and in the Pacific were decimated by "invasions for God" and "forced" religious conversions.


How is it that you do not know this?

I do know what you're saying. I know that many used the scriptures (wrongly) as a defense to support slavery of those they wrongly deemed to be inferior or subjects. Many do not realize the slavery that is imposed now in a so-called free society. I'm not speaking of the type of slavery in some countries where owners have slaves. I am speaking of being slaves to the world we live in.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I wasn't asking your opinion. I was asking Dad's opinion.


However, now that you chose to butt in, why don't you give your opinion on how God created all those sons that came to earth to marry off the beautiful humans.

While you're at it, explain why a different part of the Bible refers to Jesus as God's only begotten son.


I'd really like to see what you have to say and I'm really looking forward to see if you and Dad interpret scripture the same way. Well, actually, to see if you and Dad make up the same stories to explain things that the Bible doesn't.
It's almost like going to get a second or third opinion from a doctor, isn't it? One reason is we learn and decide on what we are learning. Or maybe did not learn. Like I'm figuring some teaching doctors are more knowledgeable than others. And some students pay closer attention than others.
 
Top