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Evolution Observed

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
I'll let Raup and Eldredge take that once again!

In the years after Darwin, his advocates hoped to find predictable progressions. In general. these have not been found-yet the optimism has died hard and some pure fantasy has crept into textbooks.:Raup

Paleontologists ever since Darwin have been searching (largely in vain) for the sequences of insensibly graded series of fossils that would stand as examples of the sort of wholesale transformation of species that Darwin envisioned as the natural product of the evolutionary process. Few saw any reason to demur - though it is a startling fact that ...most species remain recognizably themselves, virtually unchanged throughout their occurrence in geological sediments of various ages.
Niles Eldredge
I agree that we have found different modes of evolution. It is still evolution. Some have been found. Even within the long periods of stasis and during the shorter periods of change, evolution occurred. None of this refutes the theory. It adds a mode.



The Bible explained how the universe came to be, a specific creation event rather than eternal as atheists preferred, lower dimensions unfolding into larger ones, that the planet was once entirely water, and once one large land mass and one large ocean, that life began in the ocean, and culminated with humanity.

All lucky guesses perhaps, but regardless, it does offer an explanation for the unsolved mysteries we see in the record, direct experimentation and the math: creative intelligence
The Bible doesn't say it like you are describing. You are giving your interpretation and it is biased to your needs. There is no direct experimentation there ins't any math involved, though it is flawed in other parts of the Bible and only a claim for a creative intelligence. It is a story describing a version of creation inspired by God but written by ancient people with very limited knowledge of the natural world. There is no evidence it was dictated to them and much evidence that it was a combination of oral traditions. I'm not going to mover further afield from the point of discussion. You want evolution to be wrong. You used quote mining to show that. I've shown that you using the same tricks that other creationists use and not you are trying to rationalize that away. The bottom line still remains. Punctuated equilibrium is a form of evolution and neither it nor the proponents of it, refute the theory of evolution. They expand it.





I didn't mention the fossil record. I was describing an automobile junkyard

"So we dig up the past, and we see change, progression, shared traits- right? also some sudden appearances, long periods of stasis, sudden disappearances, - a few dead ends, vestigial features and even regressions, but a general tendency towards increased sophistication.. Out of curiosity- what is it exactly that these characteristics suggest to you?"

None of these characteristics even hint at, far less prove an unguided accident driven process. Arguably they infer the opposite, intelligent design, but to be generous- it's a wash
You were very covert about what you were talking about then. I sense a bit of trickery here on your part if you have to sneak in a metaphor about a salvage yard without being clear on that. I may have missed it, but you didn't point to that. Why do you feel you need to be covert like that? I had no idea you were talking about a salvage yard.

It may be a wash for you perhaps, but the evidence supports evolution and there is no evidence of any creator involved. You seem to naturally think that this means no God, but it only means no evidence for the action of God is found. If God didn't perceive the need to be directly involved in evolution, it isn't for me to question that. I'll leave that to you.



Right, he repeatedly defines evolution as 'merely change' by which definition, you, me , Raup and Genesis are in agreement. Genesis talks of a specific order for the appearance of different life forms at different times
Again, they are not in agreement. Genesis is a story about creation. It is not a story about the change in life over time.

"It is as though they [Cambrian explosion fossils] were just planted there, without any evolutionary history." (Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker).[/QUOTE]Appearing as though they were planted is an interpretation and isn't evidence they were planted there. Appearances can be deceiving, especially when you want to stay with an particular outcome instead of looking further. Fortunately, scientists have looked further and found older fossils.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
Punctuated equilibrium concedes what skeptics said all along- the gaps, jumps, are real, not artifacts of an incomplete record as explicitly predicted by Darwin.

AS Raup and others noted, the number of transitional examples actually decreased as many Victorian age assumptions were debunked - so the scientific evidence pointed in the exact opposite direction, a MORE staccato record than the one Darwin started with, not LESS- that's not an insignificant detail. Certainly Darwin didn't think so..
Gaps in the fossil record are still gaps. Gaps do not equal jumps. Darwin was aware of the gaps in the fossil record. The fossil record during his time wasn't anything like the fossil record we have today. Darwin also proposed, what amounts to punctuated equilibrium in his book.

In order to show that stasis and rapid occurs, you need evidence. Stasis and rapid change can't be seen without evidence either. If we didn't have the evidence, that would be a gap.

And still, it is evolution.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
I agree that we have found different modes of evolution. It is still evolution. Some have been found. Even within the long periods of stasis and during the shorter periods of change, evolution occurred. None of this refutes the theory. It adds a mode.



The Bible doesn't say it like you are describing. You are giving your interpretation and it is biased to your needs. There is no direct experimentation there ins't any math involved, though it is flawed in other parts of the Bible and only a claim for a creative intelligence. It is a story describing a version of creation inspired by God but written by ancient people with very limited knowledge of the natural world. There is no evidence it was dictated to them and much evidence that it was a combination of oral traditions. I'm not going to mover further afield from the point of discussion. You want evolution to be wrong. You used quote mining to show that. I've shown that you using the same tricks that other creationists use and not you are trying to rationalize that away. The bottom line still remains. Punctuated equilibrium is a form of evolution and neither it nor the proponents of it, refute the theory of evolution. They expand it.



You were very covert about what you were talking about then. I sense a bit of trickery here on your part if you have to sneak in a metaphor about a salvage yard without being clear on that. I may have missed it, but you didn't point to that. Why do you feel you need to be covert like that? I had no idea you were talking about a salvage yard.


It may be a wash for you perhaps, but the evidence supports evolution and there is no evidence of any creator involved. You seem to naturally think that this means no God, but it only means no evidence for the action of God is found. If God didn't perceive the need to be directly involved in evolution, it isn't for me to question that. I'll leave that to you.


Again, they are not in agreement. Genesis is a story about creation. It is not a story about the change in life over time.

"It is as though they [Cambrian explosion fossils] were just planted there, without any evolutionary history." (Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker).Appearing as though they were planted is an interpretation and isn't evidence they were planted there. Appearances can be deceiving, especially when you want to stay with an particular outcome instead of looking further. Fortunately, scientists have looked further and found older fossils.



You were very covert about what you were talking about then. I sense a bit of trickery here on your part if you have to sneak in a metaphor about a salvage yard without being clear on that. I may have missed it, but you didn't point to that. Why do you feel you need to be covert like that? I had no idea you were talking about a salvage yard.

Appearing as though they were planted is an interpretation and isn't evidence they were planted there

and it certainly ain't evidence that they were not! but again, we agree on the observation of sudden appearances of highly 'evolved' organisms

Let me be absolutely clear this time then- I am talking about a salvage yard

So we dig up the past, and we see change, progression, shared traits- right? also some sudden appearances, long periods of stasis, sudden disappearances, - a few dead ends, vestigial features and even regressions, but a general tendency towards increased sophistication.

And now I am talking about the fossil record

"So we dig up the past, and we see change, progression, shared traits- right? also some sudden appearances, long periods of stasis, sudden disappearances, - a few dead ends, vestigial features and even regressions, but a general tendency towards increased sophistication..

Now with full disclosure I am asking you to answer the question again: what do these characteristics suggest to you? For me they point to predetermined design in both cases, but again to be fair- they don't really establish either

Yet we invariably see these exact characteristics used to specifically support Darwinian evolution, when they simply do not- however intuitive it may seem.



It may be a wash for you perhaps, but the evidence supports evolution and there is no evidence of any creator involved. You seem to naturally think that this means no God, but it only means no evidence for the action of God is found. If God didn't perceive the need to be directly involved in evolution, it isn't for me to question that. I'll leave that to you.

Do you believe then, that God would set up the entire universe, all the math, physics, chemistry, information needed to create and support life... but have no particular interest in the outcome? And that the result of a single sentient being capable of deducing his existence and giving thanks for his creation... all a bizarre unintended coincidence?

How confident are you of this?


Again, they are not in agreement. Genesis is a story about creation. It is not a story about the change in life over time.


Raup also defined evolutionary change like this: that if we went back in time, we'd see that some life was different than today (and some of it was the same) i.e. the appearance of life on Earth changed over time.

On my 'wanting' evolution to be false, that's not a substantive argument. Dawkins is very open about deriving pleasure from an atheistic world view, but that should not affect looking at his arguments on their own merits.

Having said that, I was born and raised atheist, I passionately believed in and argued for Darwinian evolution, it was actually fairly disturbing to see it crumbling before my eyes.

You seem to naturally think that this means no God

not necessarily: and let me turn that around: biology developing according to pre-determined plans rather than random mutation, does not have to refute naturalism.

No more than physics developing according to QM rather than classical physcis did- the information can still hypothetically arise 'accidentally'- sure you might need some sort of infinite probability machine to overcome the odds- but that leap of faith has already been taken in multiverse theory for physics, why not for life? straining credibility a little too far? :)
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I'll let Raup and Eldredge take that once again!

First, Eldredge believes in evolution.

In the years after Darwin, his advocates hoped to find predictable progressions. In general. these have not been found-yet the optimism has died hard and some pure fantasy has crept into textbooks.:Raup

Paleontologists ever since Darwin have been searching (largely in vain) for the sequences of insensibly graded series of fossils that would stand as examples of the sort of wholesale transformation of species that Darwin envisioned as the natural product of the evolutionary process. Few saw any reason to demur - though it is a startling fact that ...most species remain recognizably themselves, virtually unchanged throughout their occurrence in geological sediments of various ages.
Niles Eldredge



The Bible explained how the universe came to be, a specific creation event rather than eternal as atheists preferred, lower dimensions unfolding into larger ones, that the planet was once entirely water, and once one large land mass and one large ocean, that life began in the ocean, and culminated with humanity.

All lucky guesses perhaps, but regardless, it does offer an explanation for the unsolved mysteries we see in the record, direct experimentation and the math: creative intelligence





I didn't mention the fossil record. I was describing an automobile junkyard

"So we dig up the past, and we see change, progression, shared traits- right? also some sudden appearances, long periods of stasis, sudden disappearances, - a few dead ends, vestigial features and even regressions, but a general tendency towards increased sophistication.. Out of curiosity- what is it exactly that these characteristics suggest to you?"

None of these characteristics even hint at, far less prove an unguided accident driven process. Arguably they infer the opposite, intelligent design, but to be generous- it's a wash



Right, he repeatedly defines evolution as 'merely change' by which definition, you, me , Raup and Genesis are in agreement. Genesis talks of a specific order for the appearance of different life forms at different times

"It is as though they [Cambrian explosion fossils] were just planted there, without any evolutionary history." (Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker).:)

Second your persistent misrepresentation of virtually everyone you cite. including Darwin and Dawkins, to justify your ID agenda is beyond unethical. The following clarifies Raup's views and your misrepresentation of his views with selective unethical citations.

From: On a Common Creationist Quotation of Dr. David M. Raup
Yes, Raup did say this (in "Conflicts between Darwin and Paleontology", Field Museum of Natural History Bulletin Jan. 1979, Vol. 50 No. 1 p. 22-29). Here is the quote in the immediate context (the quoted portions in boldface):

Well, we are now about 120 years after Darwin and the knowledge of the fossil record has been greatly expanded. We now have a quarter of a million fossil species but the situation hasn't changed much. The record of evolution is still surprisingly jerky and, ironically, we have even fewer examples of evolutionary transitions than we had in Darwin's time. By this I mean that some of the classic cases of darwinian change in the fossil record, such as the evolution of the horse in North America, have had to be discarded or modified as a result of more detailed information -- what appeared to be a nice simple progression when relatively few data were available now appear to be much more complex and much less gradualistic. So Darwin's problem has not been alleviated in the last 120 years and we still have a record which does show change but one that can hardly be looked upon as the most reasonable consequence of natural selection. (p. 25, emphasis mine)

Note that while Raup says that some of the examples have been "discarded" he also says that others have only been "modified". For example the classic horse series Raup mentions is one of those that has been modified, but it is far from discarded. Also note that Raup clearly states that the pattern of the fossil record is one of change in living things over geologic time, something that young earth creationists deny.

And yes it has been taken out of context. The paper is about Darwin's mechanism of natural selection and whether this mechanism is reflected in pattern of the fossil record, not whether there is a lack of evidence for common descent. From the beginning of the article:

Part of our conventional wisdom about evolution is that the fossil record of past life is an important cornerstone of evolutionary theory. In some ways, this is true -- but the situation is much more complicated. I will explore here a few of the complex interrelationships between fossils and darwinian theory. . . Darwin's theory of natural selection has always been closely linked to evidence form fossils, and probably most people assume that fossils provide a very important part of the general argument that is made in favor of darwinian interpretations of the history of life. Unfortunately, this is not strictly true. We must distinguish between the fact of evolution -- defined as change in organisms over time -- and the explanation of this change. Darwin's contribution, through his theory of natural selection, was to suggest how the evolutionary change took place. The evidence we find in the geologic record is not nearly as compatible with darwinian natural selection as we would like it to be. (p. 22)
The transitions Raup seems to be talking about, in the quote creationists use, are mostly at the level of species or genera (like between a horse and a zebra or between a fox and a wolf). Not intermediates between higher classifications like between classes, orders, or families (between reptiles and mammals etc.), which are the ones creationists most object to. However it is these "missing" species level transitions that creationists (in ignorance?) often quote paleontologists talking about. This seems to be the case here as well:

There were several problems, but the principle one was that the geologic record did not then and still does not yield a finely graduated chain of slow and progressive evolution. In other words, there are not enough intermediates. There are very few cases where one can find a gradual transition from one species to another. . . (p. 23, emphasis mine)
Stephen Jay Gould and Niles Eldredge are favorite targets for this creationist tactic because their hypothesis of punctuated equilibria is intended to explain why, from a biological point of view, we should expect species level transitions to be rare in the fossil record. Thus in their writings they frequently state the problem(s) they are attempting to solve. Creationists quote them stating the problems but not the solutions they propose. This seems to be the nature of the quote they have taken from Raup. The beginning of the very next paragraph after the one they quote tends to confirm this:

Now let me take a step back from the problem and very generally discuss natural selection and what we know about it. I think it is safe to say that we know for sure that natural selection, as a process, does work. There is a mountain of experimental and observational evidence, much of it predating genetics, which shows that natural selection as a biological process works. (p. 25)
He then moves on to the fossil record:

Now with regard to the fossil record, we certainly see change. If any of us were to be put down in the Cretaceous landscape we would immediately recognize the difference. Some of the plants and animals would be familiar but most would have changed and some of the types would be totally different from those living today. . . This record of change pretty clearly demonstrates that evolution has occurred if we define evolution simply as change; but it does not tell us how this change too place, and that is really the question. If we allow that natural selection works, as we almost have to do, the fossil record doesn't tell us whether it was responsible for 90 percent of the change we see or 9 percent, or .9 percent. (p. 26)
He then goes on to discuss natural selection versus other possible explanatory mechanisms and how they might relate to the fossil record. He also discusses the effects of historical contingency as it relates to extinction pointing out that sometimes species may become extinct due more to "bad luck" than bad genes (this by the way is the basis for Raup's 1991 book Extinction - Bad Genes or Bad Luck?). Raup concludes this article stating:

The ideas I have discussed here are rather new and have not been completely tested. No matter how they come out, however, they are having a ventilating effect on thinking in evolution and the conventional dogma is being challenged. If the ideas turn out to be valid, it will mean that Darwin was correct in what he said but that he was explaining only a part of the total evolutionary picture. The part he missed was the simple element of chance! (p. 29)
Not particularly damning. Perhaps the more interesting question is where do creationists get the idea that lists of such (out of context) quotations are a valid form of scientific argument?

For Raup's views on creationist arguments I suggest you look up one or both of the following:

bullet02.jpg

"Geology and Creationism", Field Museum of Natural History Bulletin Mar. 1983, Vol. 54 No. 3 pp. 16-25)

bullet02.jpg

"The Geological and Paleontological Arguments of Creationism" in Scientists Confront Creationism (1983), Laurie R. Godfrey (Editor), pp. 147-162
 
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SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I'll let Raup and Eldredge take that once again!

In the years after Darwin, his advocates hoped to find predictable progressions. In general. these have not been found-yet the optimism has died hard and some pure fantasy has crept into textbooks.:Raup

Paleontologists ever since Darwin have been searching (largely in vain) for the sequences of insensibly graded series of fossils that would stand as examples of the sort of wholesale transformation of species that Darwin envisioned as the natural product of the evolutionary process. Few saw any reason to demur - though it is a startling fact that ...most species remain recognizably themselves, virtually unchanged throughout their occurrence in geological sediments of various ages.
Niles Eldredge




The Bible explained how the universe came to be, a specific creation event rather than eternal as atheists preferred, lower dimensions unfolding into larger ones, that the planet was once entirely water, and once one large land mass and one large ocean, that life began in the ocean, and culminated with humanity.

All lucky guesses perhaps, but regardless, it does offer an explanation for the unsolved mysteries we see in the record, direct experimentation and the math: creative intelligence





I didn't mention the fossil record. I was describing an automobile junkyard

"So we dig up the past, and we see change, progression, shared traits- right? also some sudden appearances, long periods of stasis, sudden disappearances, - a few dead ends, vestigial features and even regressions, but a general tendency towards increased sophistication.. Out of curiosity- what is it exactly that these characteristics suggest to you?"

None of these characteristics even hint at, far less prove an unguided accident driven process. Arguably they infer the opposite, intelligent design, but to be generous- it's a wash



Right, he repeatedly defines evolution as 'merely change' by which definition, you, me , Raup and Genesis are in agreement. Genesis talks of a specific order for the appearance of different life forms at different times

"It is as though they [Cambrian explosion fossils] were just planted there, without any evolutionary history." (Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker).:)
So you're just going to repeat yourself and start all over again? :facepalm:
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
**** Moderation Post *****

This is to remind everyone that using the 'Funny' icon to show disagreement is against the official rules of RF. Several people here are in danger of getting reprimands on this.

A link for explanations:

Abuse of the "Funny" Rating
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
First, Eldredge believes in evolution.



Second your persistent misrepresentation of virtually everyone you cite. including Darwin and Dawkins, to justify your ID agenda is beyond unethical. The following clarifies Raup's views and your misrepresentation of his views with selective unethical citations.

From: On a Common Creationist Quotation of Dr. David M. Raup
Yes, Raup did say this (in "Conflicts between Darwin and Paleontology", Field Museum of Natural History Bulletin Jan. 1979, Vol. 50 No. 1 p. 22-29). Here is the quote in the immediate context (the quoted portions in boldface):

Well, we are now about 120 years after Darwin and the knowledge of the fossil record has been greatly expanded. We now have a quarter of a million fossil species but the situation hasn't changed much. The record of evolution is still surprisingly jerky and, ironically, we have even fewer examples of evolutionary transitions than we had in Darwin's time. By this I mean that some of the classic cases of darwinian change in the fossil record, such as the evolution of the horse in North America, have had to be discarded or modified as a result of more detailed information -- what appeared to be a nice simple progression when relatively few data were available now appear to be much more complex and much less gradualistic. So Darwin's problem has not been alleviated in the last 120 years and we still have a record which does show change but one that can hardly be looked upon as the most reasonable consequence of natural selection. (p. 25, emphasis mine)

Note that while Raup says that some of the examples have been "discarded" he also says that others have only been "modified". For example the classic horse series Raup mentions is one of those that has been modified, but it is far from discarded. Also note that Raup clearly states that the pattern of the fossil record is one of change in living things over geologic time, something that young earth creationists deny.

And yes it has been taken out of context. The paper is about Darwin's mechanism of natural selection and whether this mechanism is reflected in pattern of the fossil record, not whether there is a lack of evidence for common descent. From the beginning of the article:

Part of our conventional wisdom about evolution is that the fossil record of past life is an important cornerstone of evolutionary theory. In some ways, this is true -- but the situation is much more complicated. I will explore here a few of the complex interrelationships between fossils and darwinian theory. . . Darwin's theory of natural selection has always been closely linked to evidence form fossils, and probably most people assume that fossils provide a very important part of the general argument that is made in favor of darwinian interpretations of the history of life. Unfortunately, this is not strictly true. We must distinguish between the fact of evolution -- defined as change in organisms over time -- and the explanation of this change. Darwin's contribution, through his theory of natural selection, was to suggest how the evolutionary change took place. The evidence we find in the geologic record is not nearly as compatible with darwinian natural selection as we would like it to be. (p. 22)
The transitions Raup seems to be talking about, in the quote creationists use, are mostly at the level of species or genera (like between a horse and a zebra or between a fox and a wolf). Not intermediates between higher classifications like between classes, orders, or families (between reptiles and mammals etc.), which are the ones creationists most object to. However it is these "missing" species level transitions that creationists (in ignorance?) often quote paleontologists talking about. This seems to be the case here as well:

There were several problems, but the principle one was that the geologic record did not then and still does not yield a finely graduated chain of slow and progressive evolution. In other words, there are not enough intermediates. There are very few cases where one can find a gradual transition from one species to another. . . (p. 23, emphasis mine)
Stephen Jay Gould and Niles Eldredge are favorite targets for this creationist tactic because their hypothesis of punctuated equilibria is intended to explain why, from a biological point of view, we should expect species level transitions to be rare in the fossil record. Thus in their writings they frequently state the problem(s) they are attempting to solve. Creationists quote them stating the problems but not the solutions they propose. This seems to be the nature of the quote they have taken from Raup. The beginning of the very next paragraph after the one they quote tends to confirm this:

Now let me take a step back from the problem and very generally discuss natural selection and what we know about it. I think it is safe to say that we know for sure that natural selection, as a process, does work. There is a mountain of experimental and observational evidence, much of it predating genetics, which shows that natural selection as a biological process works. (p. 25)
He then moves on to the fossil record:

Now with regard to the fossil record, we certainly see change. If any of us were to be put down in the Cretaceous landscape we would immediately recognize the difference. Some of the plants and animals would be familiar but most would have changed and some of the types would be totally different from those living today. . . This record of change pretty clearly demonstrates that evolution has occurred if we define evolution simply as change; but it does not tell us how this change too place, and that is really the question. If we allow that natural selection works, as we almost have to do, the fossil record doesn't tell us whether it was responsible for 90 percent of the change we see or 9 percent, or .9 percent. (p. 26)
He then goes on to discuss natural selection versus other possible explanatory mechanisms and how they might relate to the fossil record. He also discusses the effects of historical contingency as it relates to extinction pointing out that sometimes species may become extinct due more to "bad luck" than bad genes (this by the way is the basis for Raup's 1991 book Extinction - Bad Genes or Bad Luck?). Raup concludes this article stating:

The ideas I have discussed here are rather new and have not been completely tested. No matter how they come out, however, they are having a ventilating effect on thinking in evolution and the conventional dogma is being challenged. If the ideas turn out to be valid, it will mean that Darwin was correct in what he said but that he was explaining only a part of the total evolutionary picture. The part he missed was the simple element of chance! (p. 29)
Not particularly damning. Perhaps the more interesting question is where do creationists get the idea that lists of such (out of context) quotations are a valid form of scientific argument?

For Raup's views on creationist arguments I suggest you look up one or both of the following:

bullet02.jpg

"Geology and Creationism", Field Museum of Natural History Bulletin Mar. 1983, Vol. 54 No. 3 pp. 16-25)

bullet02.jpg

"The Geological and Paleontological Arguments of Creationism" in Scientists Confront Creationism (1983), Laurie R. Godfrey (Editor), pp. 147-162


So as a renowned paleontologist, he is clearly pointing out several significant conflicts between Darwin and paleontology. That was the point, I'm not sure where you are getting confused with the context, can you be more specific on the context you are putting this in?

The fact that Raup is not a creationist or explicit ID proponent is the whole point of quoting him, it underscores the objective nature of the observation we both agree on-
Sure he believes in evolution, though he repeatedly defines evolution as merely change:

"This record of change pretty clearly demonstrates that evolution has occurred if we define evolution simply as change"

By which definition, you, I, Raup and Genesis are all in agreement.- how things changed is the question
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
So as a renowned paleontologist, he is clearly pointing out several significant conflicts between Darwin and paleontology. That was the point, I'm not sure where you are getting confused with the context, can you be more specific on the context you are putting this in?

There is obvious conflicts between Darwin and contemporary Paleontology, because Darwin had limited evidence and proposed the theory based on the evidence he had. There are conflicts between Paleontologists today with 20 years ago, 40 years ago, an 100 years ago, so what?!?!? There is nothing controversial here, and you have consistently and unethically misrepresented Charles Darwin and the meaningfulness of the differences based on the evolution of the information over time.

The fact that Raup is not a creationist or explicit ID proponent is the whole point of quoting him, it underscores the objective nature of the observation we both agree on-
Sure he believes in evolution, though he repeatedly defines evolution as merely change:

"This record of change pretty clearly demonstrates that evolution has occurred if we define evolution simply as change"

By which definition, you, I, Raup and Genesis are all in agreement.- how things changed is the question

By definition as cited before you are unethically misrepresenting and selectively citing Raup to justify a Creationist agenda. If you take more of references in context as cited, your unethical misrepresentation is abundantly clear, and no Raup's writings when taken as a whole do not remotely justify Genesis Creation.
 
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Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
There is obvious conflicts between Darwin and contemporary Paleontology, because Darwin had limited evidence and proposed the theory based on the evidence he had. There are conflicts between Paleontologists today with 20 years ago, 40 years ago, an 100 years ago, so what?!?!? There is nothing controversial here, and you have consistently and unethically misrepresented Charles Darwin and the meaningfulness of the differences based on the evolution of the information over time.


By definition as cited before you are unethically misrepresenting and selectively citing Raup to justify a Creationist agenda. If you take more of references in context as cited, your unethical misrepresentation is abundantly clear, and no Raup's writings when taken as a whole do not remotely justify Genesis Creation.

Genesis describes a specific creation event, not a static universe as atheists once hoped, that the Earth was once one great ocean, and once one ocean and one land mass, that life began in the ocean and culminated with mankind though several distinct phases, appearances, not slow steady adaptation.. Whether these are all simply lucky guesses makes no difference to these realities

"unethically misrepresenting"

more sticks and stones, saying it's unethical to question a theory is not a scientific argument, it is anti-science

The conflict is, that Darwinists predicted that the gaps, jumps were artifacts of an incomplete record, to be filled in as more fossils were found

Skeptics predicted the exact opposite, that they were real, and would become better defined as more fossils were found


"In the years after Darwin, his advocates hoped to find predictable progressions. In general. these have not been found-yet the optimism has died hard and some pure fantasy has crept into textbooks".:Raup

"250,000 species of plants and animals recorded and deposited in museums throughout the world did not support the gradual unfolding hoped for by Darwin".:Raup


If you still think all these are 'out of context' I'd strongly encourage you to read the entire paper for yourself
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
more sticks and stones, saying it's unethical to question a theory is not a scientific argument, it is anti-science
It is unethical to deliberately misrepresent a scientist's views in order to further your agenda. Furthermore, it is also unethical to misrepresent the reason why someone is calling you unethical.

So, y'know, stop being unethical.

The conflict is, that Darwinists predicted that the gaps, jumps were artifacts of an incomplete record, to be filled in as more fossils were found
And who do you think found that out? Creationists? Or scientists (including early Darwinists) who wished to clarify the theory?

It wasn't creationists.

Skeptics predicted the exact opposite, that they were real, and would become better defined as more fossils were found
And when you say "skeptics", I'm sure you have no idea what you mean. Please quote an example of a skeptic who predicted that we would find punctuated equilibrium before we discovered the fossils.

"In the years after Darwin, his advocates hoped to find predictable progressions. In general. these have not been found-yet the optimism has died hard and some pure fantasy has crept into textbooks".:Raup

"250,000 species of plants and animals recorded and deposited in museums throughout the world did not support the gradual unfolding hoped for by Darwin".:Raup


If you still think all these are 'out of context' I'd strongly encourage you to read the entire paper for yourself
The fact that you're PROVIDING them without the context is proof that they're out of context.

You're still not very good at this, are you?

NOTE: Guy has me on "ignore", so could someone please quote this post?
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Genesis describes a specific creation event, not a static universe as atheists once hoped, that the Earth was once one great ocean, and once one ocean and one land mass, that life began in the ocean and culminated with mankind though several distinct phases, appearances, not slow steady adaptation.. Whether these are all simply lucky guesses makes no difference to these realities.

What scientist, or other individuals do not determine what the knowledge of Cosmology and Paleontology know today. Again, you unethical dishonest selective citation of literature to justify a Creationist agenda.

"unethically misrepresenting"

more sticks and stones, saying it's unethical to question a theory is not a scientific argument, it is anti-science.

I have demonstrated your unethical dishonest selective citation of literature to justify a Creationist agenda. Others have demonstrated the same thing

The conflict is, that Darwinists predicted that the gaps, jumps were artifacts of an incomplete record, to be filled in as more fossils were found.

Skeptics predicted the exact opposite, that they were real, and would become better defined as more fossils were found.

That is actually what has happened, and continues to happen

"In the years after Darwin, his advocates hoped to find predictable progressions. In general. these have not been found-yet the optimism has died hard and some pure fantasy has crept into textbooks".:Raup

"250,000 species of plants and animals recorded and deposited in museums throughout the world did not support the gradual unfolding hoped for by Darwin".:Raup

Again, Raup does not represent the consensus of paleontology, and as demonstrates you unethical dishonest selective citation of literature to justify a Creationist agenda.


If you still think all these are 'out of context' I'd strongly encourage you to read the entire paper for yourself

I already cited more of the paper that demonstrates you unethical dishonest selective citation of literature to justify a Creationist agenda.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
It is unethical to deliberately misrepresent a scientist's views in order to further your agenda. Furthermore, it is also unethical to misrepresent the reason why someone is calling you unethical.

So, y'know, stop being unethical.


And who do you think found that out? Creationists? Or scientists (including early Darwinists) who wished to clarify the theory?

It wasn't creationists.


And when you say "skeptics", I'm sure you have no idea what you mean. Please quote an example of a skeptic who predicted that we found find punctuated equilibrium before we discovered the fossils.


The fact that you're PROVIDING them without the context is proof that they're out of context.

You're still not very good at this, are you?

NOTE: Guy has me on "ignore", so could someone please quote this post?

Feel blessed! Your post simply supports good science as I have and rejects false unethical Creationist science, advocated by the likes of @Guy Threepwood
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
What scientist, or other individuals do not determine what the knowledge of Cosmology and Paleontology know today. Again, you unethical dishonest selective citation of literature to justify a Creationist agenda.



I have demonstrated your unethical dishonest selective citation of literature to justify a Creationist agenda. Others have demonstrated the same thing



That is actually what has happened, and continues to happen



Again, Raup does not represent the consensus of paleontology, and as demonstrates you unethical dishonest selective citation of literature to justify a Creationist agenda.




I already cited more of the paper that demonstrates you unethical dishonest selective citation of literature to justify a Creationist agenda.


insults are the most graceless form of conceding defeat, by which measure this thread is a little like shooting fish in a barrel.

Any substantive counter argument from any Darwinist here would be very interesting to hear, but my hopes are not high.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
insults are the most graceless form of conceding defeat, by which measure this forum is a little like shooting fish in a barrel.

Any substantive counter argument from any Darwinist here would be very interesting to hear, but my hopes are not high.

I hear you claim the Genesis world flood was a real event, and Napoleon won the Battle of Waterloo.

As far as I have seen there only scientists like myself and others who support good science concerning evolution, cosmology, and the integrity of science. By far 99%+ scientist in the fields related to evolution support evolution including Raup and Eldridge. I have not meet any Darwinists? on this site.

Who claimed to be a Darwinist?
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
insults are the most graceless form of conceding defeat, by which measure this thread is a little like shooting fish in a barrel.

Any substantive counter argument from any Darwinist here would be very interesting to hear, but my hopes are not high.
Avoiding having to demonstrate your honesty when accused of being dishonest is not a victory, Guy. Can you or can you not answer the charge and respond to the arguments?
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
I hear you claim the Genesis world flood was a real event, and Napoleon won the Battle of Waterloo.

As far as I have seen there only scientists like myself and others who support good science concerning evolution, cosmology, and the integrity of science. By far 99%+ scientist in the fields related to evolution support evolution including Raup and Eldridge. I have not meet any Darwinists? on this site.

Who claimed to be a Darwinist?

Depending on how you define it

Raup:
Now with regard to the fossil record, we certainly see change. If any of us were to be put down in the Cretaceous landscape we would immediately recognize the difference. Some of the plants and animals would be familiar but most would have changed and some of the types would be totally different from those living today. . . This record of change pretty clearly demonstrates that evolution has occurred if we define evolution simply as change; but it does not tell us how this change too place, and that is really the question.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Depending on how you define it.

I define it as 99%+ scienitists in the fields of Geology, Biochemistry, Biology, and Genetics. No problem

Raup:
Now with regard to the fossil record, we certainly see change. If any of us were to be put down in the Cretaceous landscape we would immediately recognize the difference. Some of the plants and animals would be familiar but most would have changed and some of the types would be totally different from those living today. . . This record of change pretty clearly demonstrates that evolution has occurred if we define evolution simply as change; but it does not tell us how this change too place, and that is really the question.

Incomplete, selective, unethical and dishonest citation of Raup as referenced previously, and what Paleontologists support today concerning evolution.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
I define it as 99%+ scienitists in the fields of Geology, Biochemistry, Biology, and Genetics.


Incomplete, selective, unethical and dishonest citation of Raup as referenced previously, and what Paleontologists support today concerning evolution.

Read the entire paper sometime and you will understand, then get back to me if you like, minus the ad hominem,
there are plenty people here capable of debating without it, way more worthwhile
 
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