Evolution of languages

[shunyadragon]

There were a number of posts in different threads that dealt with the relationship between cultures and tribes without addressing the big picture of the evolution of language in the history of humanity. The following are some of the points I will address.

Oldest known <i>Homo sapiens</i> fossils discovered in Morocco

Museum news with human origins expert Chris Stringer commenting on the discovery of early Homo sapiens fossils from 300,000 years ago.

www.nhm.ac.uk

The oldest Homo Sapiens are found in Morocco 280,000 - 350,000 years old with vocal cords. Other remains have been found across Africa to Israel. Homo Sapiens are tribal with family units and spoke. Africa is not only the physical origin of modern humans, but language also. Before 50,000 years ago we have Proto-human languages Europe and Asia

Upper Paleolithic - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Haplogroup R (Y-DNA) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

About 50,000-20,000 years ago in the Upper Paleolithic a change to more complex stone technologies and we begin to see the migration across Eurasia and Southern Asia of Paleolithic languages that can be compared and become regional Haplogroups. that can be compared to the genetics of regional tribal groups and origins. From this period we can see Genetic trees related to the languages in different regions and tribes,

After 20,000 years ago definable regional languages evolve separately in regional groups and later tribes,

A central region for the evolution of the dominant regional languages occurred in the Steppes of South Central Asia. Interesting influence of the rise of Anatolian agriculture 8–9.5kya and the later first domestication of horses.

Mapping the origins and expansion of the Indo-European language family - PMC

There are two competing hypotheses for the origin of the Indo-European language family. The conventional view places the homeland in the Pontic steppes approximately 6kya. An alternative hypothesis claims the languages spread from Anatolia with the ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Regional primitive languages likely existed at this time, and evolved from the influence the language from the central Asian steppes.

By 5,000 to 3,000 before present the foundation of spoken languages of Eurasia were established. The East Asian spoken and written languages evolved more isolated.

 

[GoodAttention]

There were a number of posts in different threads that dealt with the relationship between cultures and tribes without addressing the big picture of the evolution of language in the history of humanity. The following are some of the points I will address.

Oldest known <i>Homo sapiens</i> fossils discovered in Morocco

Museum news with human origins expert Chris Stringer commenting on the discovery of early Homo sapiens fossils from 300,000 years ago.

www.nhm.ac.uk

The oldest Homo Sapiens are found in Morocco 280,000 - 350,000 years old with vocal cords. Other remains have been found across Africa to Israel. Homo Sapiens are tribal with family units and spoke. Africa is not only the physical origin of modern humans, but language also. Before 50,000 years ago we have Proto-human languages Europe and Asia

Upper Paleolithic - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Haplogroup R (Y-DNA) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

About 50,000-20,000 years ago in the Upper Paleolithic a change to more complex stone technologies and we begin to see the migration across Eurasia and Southern Asia of Paleolithic languages that can be compared and become regional Haplogroups. that can be compared to the genetics of regional tribal groups and origins. From this period we can see Genetic trees related to the languages in different regions and tribes,

After 20,000 years ago definable regional languages evolve separately in regional groups and later tribes,

A central region for the evolution of the dominant regional languages occurred in the Steppes of South Central Asia. Interesting influence of the rise of Anatolian agriculture 8–9.5kya and the later first domestication of horses.

Mapping the origins and expansion of the Indo-European language family - PMC

There are two competing hypotheses for the origin of the Indo-European language family. The conventional view places the homeland in the Pontic steppes approximately 6kya. An alternative hypothesis claims the languages spread from Anatolia with the ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Two points about the Anatolian hypothesis

"Estimates of the age of the Indo-European family derived from models of vocabulary evolution support the chronology implied by the Anatolian hypothesis, but the inferred dates remain controversial (5, 10, 12), and the implied models of geographic expansion under each hypothesis remain untested."

"Despite support for an Anatolian Indo-European origin, we think it unlikely that agriculture serves as the sole driver of language expansion on the continent."

SO while we can acknowledge the PIE language tree, dating the age and history is still questionable.

Regional primitive languages likely existed at this time, and evolved from the influence the language from the central Asian steppes.

Sumerian existed of its own, and is not considered connected to PIE as a language, even though it is relatively "regional" to Anatolia.

So even if language did spreadsouthward from Anatolia into Sumerian Mesopotamia, it did so in a way that was completely different to its east-west spread.

By 5,000 to 3,000 before present the foundation of spoken languages of Eurasia were established. The East Asian spoken and written languages evolved more isolated.

I would clarify this by saying the languages of each PIE sub-family start at the earliest 3000BCE for Indo-Iranian, and 1000BCE for Celtic and Germanic sub-family groups.

Comparing this with evidence of written Ancient Egyptian and Archaic Sumerian languages dating from the same time period, it begs the questions of what the significance of the history of the PIE languages plays on a global level.

 

[shunyadragon]

Two points about the Anatolian hypothesis

"Estimates of the age of the Indo-European family derived from models of vocabulary evolution support the chronology implied by the Anatolian hypothesis, but the inferred dates remain controversial (5, 10, 12), and the implied models of geographic expansion under each hypothesis remain untested."

"Despite support for an Anatolian Indo-European origin, we think it unlikely that agriculture serves as the sole driver of language expansion on the continent."

SO while we can acknowledge the PIE language tree, dating the age and history is still questionable.

I do not consider it questionable. We may disagree, but warrants further discussion

Sumerian existed of its own, and is not considered connected to PIE as a language, even though it is relatively "regional" to Anatolia.

I do not believe any language stands on its own. They all evolve from earlier primitive spoken languages going back to the Paleolithic. Early evidence religious observance long before the Sumerian culture supports this,

Earlest temple in the Levant. - Google Search

Göbekli Tepein Turkey is considered to be the world's oldest temple and the oldest known man-made structure:

	Göbekli Tepe
Location	Southern Turkey, six miles from Urfa
Construction	Built between 9500 and 9000 BCE, towards the end of the Pre-Pottery Neolithic A (PPNA) period
Features	Massive carved stones, large circular enclosures, and smaller rectangular structures
Significance	Predates the invention of writing and the wheel, and the beginning of agriculture and breeding of livestock

The site was previously thought to be a medieval cemetery, but German archaeologist Klaus Schmidt discovered the massive carved stones and concluded it was the site of the world's oldest temple.
.
More on this

So even if language did spread southward from Anatolia into Sumerian Mesopotamia, it did so in a way that was completely different to its east-west spread.

The East-West spread actually begins in Africa

I would clarify this by saying the languages of each PIE sub-family start at the earliest 3000BCE for Indo-Iranian, and 1000BCE for Celtic and Germanic sub-family groups.

I do not remotely by the 3000 BCE limit and gave a rang of 5,000 to 3, 000 and older for some cultures for the range of the establishment of the foundation of regional and tribal languages. The languages of India and Southeast Asia are potentially older as regional languages. The Xinglongwa culture (6200–5400 BC), Xinle culture (5300–4800 BC), Culture and others of China with sophisticated religious beliefs evolved separate spoken languages independently. languages

Comparing this with evidence of written Ancient Egyptian and Archaic Sumerian languages dating from the same time period, it begs the questions of what the significance of the history of the PIE languages plays on a global level.

Language does have a globla migration and evolution history, The issue of Egypt and Sumer is a separate consideration after migrtion of early humans out of Africa and the rise of complex Neolithic Stone technology. Disagree here and open to further discussion. The fact that both Sumerian and Egypt evolved in major river valley with extensive trade influenced the as centers of language development.

 

[GoodAttention]

I do not consider it questionable. We may disagree, but warrants further discussion

I quoted directly from your source.

I do not believe any language stands on its own. They all evolve from earlier primitive spoken languages going back to the Paleolithic. Early evidence religious observance long before the Sumerian culture supports this,

Whilst we could trace back primitive spoken language to single sources or otherwise, I don't believe all languages were equal in terms of the depths of their vocabulary.

Earlest temple in the Levant. - Google Search

Göbekli Tepein Turkey is considered to be the world's oldest temple and the oldest known man-made structure:

	Göbekli Tepe
Location	Southern Turkey, six miles from Urfa
Construction	Built between 9500 and 9000 BCE, towards the end of the Pre-Pottery Neolithic A (PPNA) period
Features	Massive carved stones, large circular enclosures, and smaller rectangular structures
Significance	Predates the invention of writing and the wheel, and the beginning of agriculture and breeding of livestock

The site was previously thought to be a medieval cemetery, but German archaeologist Klaus Schmidt discovered the massive carved stones and concluded it was the site of the world's oldest temple.
.
More on this

The East-West spread actually begins in Africa

I do not remotely by the 3000 BCE limit and gave a rang of 5,000 to 3, 000 and older for some cultures for the range of the establishment of the foundation of regional and tribal languages. The languages of India and Southeast Asia are potentially older as regional languages. The Xinglongwa culture (6200–5400 BC), Xinle culture (5300–4800 BC), Culture and others of China with sophisticated religious beliefs evolved separate spoken languages independently. languages

Language does have a globla migration and evolution history, The issue of Egypt and Sumer is a separate consideration after migrtion of early humans out of Africa and the rise of complex Neolithic Stone technology. Disagree here and open to further discussion. The fact that both Sumerian and Egypt evolved in major river valley with extensive trade influenced the as centers of language development.

Yes, the way I see it is speech could have started in Anatolia or elsewhere. Speech is a sign of the neolithic cultures worldwide.

But language, and by this I mean the depth of language that comes from forming societies and performing different tasks as a collective, such as administation, trade, and so forth, starts with the three ancient bronze age civilizations, being Egyptian, Sumerian, and Indus Valley circa 3500BCE.

Considering also the use of written language of these civilizations, which I see as a sign of metalwork, also sets them apart from others.

 

[shunyadragon]

I quoted directly from your source.

I said we disagree for further discussion.

Whilst we could trace back primitive spoken language to single sources or otherwise, I don't believe all languages were equal in terms of the depths of their vocabulary.

This claim of depths of vocabulary is not an issue relevant to my post, The issue of the depth of vocabulary of ancient spoken languages is an open question, but nonetheless the extensive carving and images of ancient Chinese cultures demonstrates an extreme depth of spoken vocabulary.

Yes, the way I see it is speech could have started in Anatolia or elsewhere. Speech is a sign of the neolithic cultures worldwide.

But language, and by this I mean the depth of language that comes from forming societies and performing different tasks as a collective, such as administation, trade, and so forth, starts with the three ancient bronze age civilizations, being Egyptian, Sumerian, and Indus Valley circa 3500BCE.

The cultures of East Asia and China show early sophistication in technology, spoken language and when their writing began

Considering also the use of written language of these civilizations, which I see as a sign of metalwork, also sets them apart from others.

 

[shunyadragon]

I quoted directly from your source.

I said we disagree for further discussion.

Whilst we could trace back primitive spoken language to single sources or otherwise, I don't believe all languages were equal in terms of the depths of their vocabulary.

This claim of depths of vocabulary is not an issue relevant to my post, The issue of the depth of vocabulary of ancient spoken languages is an open question, but nonetheless the extensive carving and images of ancient Chinese cultures demonstrates an extreme depth of spoken vocabulary.

Yes, the way I see it is speech could have started in Anatolia or elsewhere. Speech is a sign of the neolithic cultures worldwide.

But language, and by this I mean the depth of language that comes from forming societies and performing different tasks as a collective, such as administation, trade, and so forth, starts with the three ancient bronze age civilizations, being Egyptian, Sumerian, and Indus Valley circa 3500BCE.

The cultures of East Asia and China show early sophistication in technology, spoken language and when their writing began

Considering also the use of written language of these civilizations, which I see as a sign of metalwork, also sets them apart from others.

 

[GoodAttention]

I said we disagree for further discussion.

Ok, the way I see it is the Anatolian hypothesis as the origin of PIE is disjointed, and seems more to be dating a language based on evidence of agriculture. The conventional theory of the PIE languages origin within the Pontic steppes circa 6000 years ago I think makes more sense, as it gives a clearer progression to the language sub-families. It also seems to flip-flop by using agriculture in Anatolia as potential evidence, but also concluding language need not be spread by agriculture.

The people of the First Agricultural Revolution in the Fertile crescent circa 9000-7500BCE were undoutably the ancestors of the Sumerian people and language. Sumerian kingship mythology also goes back tens of thousands of years, which of course we take with a grain of salt. Agricultural practices spread from here to the Indus Valley, Nile Valley, and Europe.

Hence I favour the conventional understanding of the history of the PIE language, in addition to the consideration of Sumerian being a more logical contender as "root" regional language, not PIE.

This claim of depths of vocabulary is not an issue relevant to my post, The issue of the depth of vocabulary of ancient spoken languages is an open question, but nonetheless the extensive carving and images of ancient Chinese cultures demonstrates an extreme depth of spoken vocabulary.

The cultures of East Asia and China show early sophistication in technology, spoken language and when their writing began

Sure.

 

[shunyadragon]

Ok, the way I see it is the Anatolian hypothesis as the origin of PIE is disjointed, and seems more to be dating a language based on evidence of agriculture. The conventional theory of the PIE languages origin within the Pontic steppes circa 6000 years ago I think makes more sense, as it gives a clearer progression to the language sub-families. It also seems to flip-flop by using agriculture in Anatolia as potential evidence, but also concluding language need not be spread by agriculture.

Yes, agriculture is an unlikely contributing factor in the influence of the Anatolian region.

The people of the First Agricultural Revolution in the Fertile crescent circa 9000-7500BCE were undoutably the ancestors of the Sumerian people and language. Sumerian kingship mythology also goes back tens of thousands of years, which of course we take with a grain of salt. Agricultural practices spread from here to the Indus Valley, Nile Valley, and Europe.

Yes, the bold above is not a factual claim.

Hence I favour the conventional understanding of the history of the PIE language, in addition to the consideration of Sumerian being a more logical contender as "root" regional language, not PIE.

Sumerian is the root of the Middle East languages and culture. The Anatolian influence from the Steppes of Southern Asia is more a Continental East West hypothesis of the influence on the early development of languages, As I stated before languages developed separately regionally., and evolved through trade.

 

[GoodAttention]

Yes, agriculture is an unlikely contributing factor in the influence of the Anatolian region.

I agree, if you are saying what your are saying within the context of the PIE-Anatolian origin theory.

Agriculture of its own is a sign of a sedentary society. A successful one would be measured by population growth. Growth would be recognised by the formation of new settlements close to the origin.

This is how the history of the Sumerian civilization reads.

Yes, the bold above is not a factual claim.

My understanding as per Wikipedia.

Neolithic Revolution - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Sumerian is the root of the Middle East languages and culture. The Anatolian influence from the Steppes of Southern Asia is more a Continental East West hypothesis of the influence on the early development of languages, As I stated before languages developed separately regionally., and evolved through trade.

The Anatolian influence, if there was one, was to “seed” east to the Pontiac steppes.

One needs to ask what relevance there is to establish a connection at all, especially when the Anatolian sedentary agricultural society seems to be somewhat mismatched to the notoriously nomadic movements of the PIE peoples.

Hence, as you say, I believe the PIE root language began regionally, being the Pontiac steepes area.