Evolution of Mind

[Subduction Zone]

it definitely is an open forum.

the articles provided to you don't necessarily come from peer reviewed sources but they do come from reputable interviews with peer reviewed scientists and their studies.


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The roots of plant intelligence

When scientists avoid peer review they lose all credibility. Real scientists who actually believe in their work submit it for peer review. Do you remember "cold fusion". Those were peer reviewed scientists too. They did not submit their work for experts to judge, they jumped to a hasty and incorrect conclusion and went with the route of the popular press. When investigated it was merely experimental error.

Peer review does not guarantee that an idea is correct, but avoiding it almost guarantees that an idea is wrong.

 

[Fool]

When scientists avoid peer review they lose all credibility. Real scientists who actually believe in their work submit it for peer review. Do you remember "cold fusion". Those were peer reviewed scientists too. They did not submit their work for experts to judge, they jumped to a hasty and incorrect conclusion and went with the route of the popular press. When investigated it was merely experimental error.

Peer review does not guarantee that an idea is correct, but avoiding it almost guarantees that an idea is wrong.

i understand how the process works. unfortunately there is a plenty of research out there.

http://www.cell.com/trends/plant-science/fulltext/S1360-1385(06)00164-6

 

[Nakosis]

The universe experiences, and knows itself, through our cognititive capabilities. It experiences love, and beauty, and morality, through our conscious awareness. I hardly think of that as "just another system", like the weather.

Perhaps, but I just see it as a conversion. The brain takes certain information and converts it into feelings. A feeling of love, a feeling of existence. A feeling of oneness with the universe.

Feelings is how the CNS interfaces with conscious awareness.

You may think the universe has feelings but that's likely you projecting those feelings out into the universe. Maybe it does but how could you know this? Even if it didn't, you would still feel the same way.

Put simply, consciousness is the feeling of knowing a feeling.

Damasio's theory of consciousness - Wikipedia

 

[bobhikes]

This is an open forum. When people spread nonsense that they cannot support I feel a duty to try to help them.

Good luck.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Good luck.

I know. It is rare that people change their minds about woo.

 

[Subduction Zone]

i understand how the process works. unfortunately there is a plenty of research out there.

http://www.cell.com/trends/plant-science/fulltext/S1360-1385(06)00164-6

I don't see any implication of intelligence in that article. You appear to be performing an equivocation fallacy again. This is why I said that one needs to define one's terms. Proper definition of one's terms helps to eliminate this error.

 

[Fool]

I don't see any implication of intelligence in that article. You appear to be performing an equivocation fallacy again. This is why I said that one needs to define one's terms. Proper definition of one's terms helps to eliminate this error.

again this isn't a single individual instance like the example you gave of cold fusion.

it's another group of people, from a reputable site.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?...ved=0ahUKEwiOmP6mkb_XAhWM5YMKHWtABuYQgQMIJDAA

 

[Nakosis]

I can detect my own but when it comes to research I evaluate the way they determine it for the study. I don't always agree but there is no consensus on consciousness just theory. Think of it this way without large masses there is no gravity does that mean gravity is not a real thing.

You can feel it.

I suspect consciousness is a "feeling engine". Even though we like to think/feel we are rational and logical, perhaps consciousness entire connection to reality is the feelings created by the subconscious mind.

I know what you're thinking because I thought the same at one time. Consciousness is a rudimentary element of reality. It take the development of a complex organism for consciousness to have a critical mass to become detectable.

Maybe or maybe there other possible explanations. I exist because I feel that I exist.

Is that a real thing or is it just a trick the brain learned in order to create a more effective "feeling engine"?

 

[Randy the Atheist]

Consciousness is caused by a type of white noise that is produced by the constant flicker of billions of axons and dendrites in the brain. The amount of noise is generated by a conglomeration of various neurotransmitters like dopamine, glutamate, serotonin and adenosine - which are randomly released by individual axon nerves and cross a small gap called a synaptic cleft and absorbed by a dendrite nerve on the other side. The quantity and quality of the neurotransmitters being released in various sections of the brain generates what we see as a waking cognition in all animal life such as frogs, lizards, dogs and chimpanzees.

Our level of consciousness is generated by the fusion of 3 sets of brains that are interacting with each other - the left and right hemispheres and the frontal lobe. The left/right brains generate a constant parade of images from memories and is degraded by the loose connections from the neurotransmitters. These noisy degraded memories are then filtered out by the frontal brain acting as a type of referee - amalgamating the remaining fragments of memories into newly refreshed ones.

When the degradation and amalgamation of the memories are just right, brand new confabulated thoughts emerge thus producing what we experience as new ideas. When a large enough amount of newly confabulated images arise all at once, a "Eureka Moment" is experienced. This autonomous stream of noisy fragmented memories from your brain can be sensed in deep meditation or in a sensory deprivation chamber.

In 1975, a scientist by the name of Stephen Thaler began to experiement with a crude network of on-off switches by randomly disturbing their individual connections and witnessed the emergence of a stream of consciousness. Since that time, he has invented a number of machines that teach themselves, connect themselves and even build themselves with no input from human programming. His machines emulate the way that the human brain operates by the simple function of noise, in effect, rediscovering what neurophysiologists are learning through the science of neuroanatomy.

Stephen Thaler

 

[siti]

Conscious is not exclusive, Belief is exclusive to humans. I have only found a few papers linking belief to certain apes and none of them have scientific consensus.

Humans are apes - I think it is unlikely that such a complex phenomenon as "belief" would have occurred without precursor developments in our earlier ancestors or that some of these precursors would not have been inherited by our non-human cousins from our common ancestors. Rudimentary "language" capability - for example - is certainly not restricted to mammals, let alone humans or apes. I'm not trying to humanize apes - I am trying to point out that humans are far more ape than we like to think and understanding both consciousness and belief (religiosity) will require more than understanding the human brain (or mind) in isolation. Its all part of an evolutionary process.

 

[Subduction Zone]

again this isn't a single individual instance like the example you gave of cold fusion.

it's another group of people, from a reputable site.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?...ved=0ahUKEwiOmP6mkb_XAhWM5YMKHWtABuYQgQMIJDAA

Cold fusion was not just one individual either. And again much of what your link describes is signaling. "Neuro-biology" does not imply consciousness.

 

[bobhikes]

Humans are apes - I think it is unlikely that such a complex phenomenon as "belief" would have occurred without precursor developments in our earlier ancestors or that some of these precursors would not have been inherited by our non-human cousins from our common ancestors. Rudimentary "language" capability - for example - is certainly not restricted to mammals, let alone humans or apes. I'm not trying to humanize apes - I am trying to point out that humans are far more ape than we like to think and understanding both consciousness and belief (religiosity) will require more than understanding the human brain (or mind) in isolation. Its all part of an evolutionary process.

I believe the advancement of Humans started with the brain a simple loop back circuit from the frontal lobe to the emotional cortex allowing our thoughts to come back as new thoughts with emotional direction(creating belief). Almost all other animals have to act to get feedback.

 

[Nakosis]

Consciousness is caused by a type of white noise that is produced by the constant flicker of billions of axons and dendrites in the brain. The amount of noise is generated by a conglomeration of various neurotransmitters like dopamine, glutamate, serotonin and adenosine - which are randomly released by individual axon nerves and cross a small gap called a synaptic cleft and absorbed by a dendrite nerve on the other side. The quantity and quality of the neurotransmitters being released in various sections of the brain generates what we see as a waking cognition in all animal life such as frogs, lizards, dogs and chimpanzees.

Our level of consciousness is generated by the fusion of 3 sets of brains that are interacting with each other - the left and right hemispheres and the frontal lobe. The left/right brains generate a constant parade of images from memories and is degraded by the loose connections from the neurotransmitters. These noisy degraded memories are then filtered out by the frontal brain acting as a type of referee - amalgamating the remaining fragments of memories into newly refreshed ones.

When the degradation and amalgamation of the memories are just right, brand new confabulated thoughts emerge thus producing what we experience as new ideas. When a large enough amount of newly confabulated images arise all at once, a "Eureka Moment" is experienced. This autonomous stream of noisy fragmented memories from your brain can be sensed in deep meditation or in a sensory deprivation chamber.

In 1975, a scientist by the name of Stephen Thaler began to experiement with a crude network of on-off switches by randomly disturbing their individual connections and witnessed the emergence of a stream of consciousness. Since that time, he has invented a number of machines that teach themselves, connect themselves and even build themselves with no input from human programming. His machines emulate the way that the human brain operates by the simple function of noise, in effect, rediscovering what neurophysiologists are learning through the science of neuroanatomy.

Stephen Thaler

Interesting but it doesn't really explain feelings. The white noise seems to be being used to provide a random environmental stimulus. Something humans get from their nervous system.

I suspect consciousness would have to run from an isolated program. Like a brain in a vat. Isolated from direct interface with outside stimulus through a interface.

The ability to learn and the ability to alter actions because of what's been learned is not consciousness... IMO.

 

[Randy the Atheist]

Interesting but it doesn't really explain feelings.

Feelings are emergent properties of the three brains interacting as described above. Love for example, is directly observable as a neuro-chemico function of the brain and is significantly altered by drugs, stroke, trauma or disease.

Love is an emotional response caused by a whole bunch of neurotransmitters like oxytocin, dopamine, adrenaline, serotonin and glutamate and their combined effect in certain regions of the brain such as the anterior cingulate and hippocampus, which triggers the complex feelings called love.

Alter the chemicals around a little differently, and you get the same feeling as a drug addiction. Alter them again, and you could have the same feeling as a child predator.

Neutralize those chemicals with a blocker like an SSRI, and you lose the feeling of love for your lover.

Love is a specific type of emotional response to a very specific combination of neurotransmitters in the same parts of the brain that can cause drug addictions or sexual fetishes if the levels of neurotransmitters are disproportioned.

 

[serp777]

The mind is a dynamic thing. In fact it's an idea, that doesn't have a static form per se. Some see it as being attached to a brain but that isn't necessarily so for plants and bacteria that have consciousness.

As a species wouldn't a mind have to adapt its belief system to represent it's current state because of a change in the environment?

And if it did change, how would it be changed?

Yet another ridiculous thread. Plants and bacteria that have consciousness? How are you coming up with this gunk?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yet another ridiculous thread. Plants and bacteria that have consciousness? How are you coming up with this gunk?

A mixture of woo, equivocation fallacies, and outright ignorance. Or in other words, the usual

 

[Profound Realization]

Yet another ridiculous thread. Plants and bacteria that have consciousness? How are you coming up with this gunk?

State your case on why you believe that plants and bacteria are not conscious in even the slightest degree.

 

[Subduction Zone]

State your case on why you believe that plants and bacteria are not conscious in even the slightest degree.

Easy, because no one has presented any evidence of this. Please note, all that we have had are equivocation fallacies at the best.

 

[Profound Realization]

Easy, because no one has presented any evidence of this. Please note, all that we have had are equivocation fallacies at the best.

I wasn’t asking you, but if you wish to communicate in an objective manner, you can state your case as to why you believe that plants and bacteria are not conscious in even the slightest degree including having no anoetic consciousness.

 

[idav]

western science is too often considered a hard science. unfortunately there are no absolutes in science; especially in the softer sciences. neuroscience is a fledgling science. western science has been slow about studying consciousness because of its inability to control and measure. thats not an eastern issue. its just an issue

That doesn't mean you can reinvent words or it makes it very difficult to articulate such a hard subject accurately, that's the issue. Consiousness does not describe plants that's a different meaning to a word. We can't even say for certain a snake is conscious in the sense that we can call humans self aware.
Animal consciousness - Wikipedia