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Evolution of what?

gnostic

The Lost One
Because we don’t need experiments to prove God exists.

Then that’s why the whole concept of God and creation, to be unfalsifiable. You don’t need, nor want, evidence and experiments.

What you would call people accepting religious belief, without evidence, without facts…it is called FAITH.

Faith is about a person’s personal “acceptance” or “conviction”…and it is highly “subjective”, and therefore tends to be biased.

Faith, or more precisely “faith-based belief” is never impartial, so it is unreliable.

Science required models to be falsifiable. Religion don’t.

Science required models to be supported evidence. Religion don’t.

That’s the differences between science and religion.

Edit:

I would like to point out that Natural Sciences are not trying to encroach on any religion. Sciences are not trying to refute or disprove any god of any religion.

As @IndigoChild5559 said, Natural Sciences are only exploring the natural world, something that can be observed, tested, measured. Religions and their gods are outside of Natural Sciences purview:

It has to do with the fact that science can only explore measurable phenomena. Anything that exists outside the natural realm is simply not the purview of science.

It is groups of believers, like creationists, who have been trying to mix their personal religious beliefs with Natural Sciences, like biology.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Because we don’t need experiments to prove God exists. He does, whether a person trusts and submits to God are one thing and if you don’t you’ll waste your life trying to prove stuff like evolution and natural selection or other nonsense and never will.
Another one who thinks evolution and god are somehow mutually exclusive.

It's like none of these people realize that the majority of theists, christians in particular, have no problem with evolution at all.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Nah, it has nothing to do with that. It has to do with the fact that science can only explore measurable phenomena. Anything that exists outside the natural realm is simply not the purview of science.
What about the idea of the "Big Bang" regarding the origin of the universe? Seems that it is taken by scientists to be within their purview.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Then that’s why the whole concept of God and creation, to be unfalsifiable. You don’t need, nor want, evidence and experiments.

What you would call people accepting religious belief, without evidence, without facts…it is called FAITH.

Faith is about a person’s personal “acceptance” or “conviction”…and it is highly “subjective”, and therefore tends to be biased.

Faith, or more precisely “faith-based belief” is never impartial, so it is unreliable.

Science required models to be falsifiable. Religion don’t.

Science required models to be supported evidence. Religion don’t.

That’s the differences between science and religion.

Edit:

I would like to point out that Natural Sciences are not trying to encroach on any religion. Sciences are not trying to refute or disprove any god of any religion.

As @IndigoChild5559 said, Natural Sciences are only exploring the natural world, something that can be observed, tested, measured. Religions and their gods are outside of Natural Sciences purview:



It is groups of believers, like creationists, who have been trying to mix their personal religious beliefs with Natural Sciences, like biology.
It is obvious that the Bible does not offer an explanation of how God created life in heaven or on earth in a step by step manner, explaining all the elements along the process. Does that prove anything other than the Bible offers no great details about creation? There are many things evolution cannot really explain beyond conjecture. Which brings me back to the statement some have made that humans are fish. Evolved fish, that is, of course. Or maybe not -- maybe some think we ARE fish. But not gorillas. Or maybe they think we are gorillas as well as fish, too. Since it is said humans are apes. So apes must be considered fish, too. Is that unfalsifiable?
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
There are many things evolution cannot really explain beyond conjecture.

Such as?


Which brings me back to the statement some have made that humans are fish. Evolved fish, that is, of course.

Over the past few days, many many many people, including myself, have explained this to you and how the word "fish" is not an actual taxonomical term.
How "fish" in this context isn't really referring to things like salmons but rather to the more generic "chordates" that lived in the sea.

Why do you keep ignoring all those explanations and continue to use this misleading terminology?

Or maybe not -- maybe some think we ARE fish.

We are chordates.

But not gorillas.

Indeed we aren't gorillas.
But both gorillas and humans are apes. Just like both are mammals, tetrapods, vertebrates, chordates, eukaryotes,...

I don't think you ever answered this question: do you also object to the fact that humans are mammals and vertebrates?
If not, why do you object to humans being primates but not to humans being mammals?

Or maybe they think we are gorillas as well as fish, too.

No and I have a REALLY hard time taking you seriously when you say such things knowing how all this has been explained to you ad nauseum.

Since it is said humans are apes

Yes. And all gorillas are apes, but not all apes are gorillas.

So apes must be considered fish, too.

Apes are chordates, yes.

Is that unfalsifiable?
No.

See here: Chordate - Wikipedia

It is well defined what a chordate is. Showing that apes have features that don't fit that definition, would falsify the claim that apes are chordates.
Off course, apes DO have those features. So they are chordates.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
It is obvious that the Bible does not offer an explanation of how God created life in heaven or on earth in a step by step manner, explaining all the elements along the process. Does that prove anything other than the Bible offers no great details about creation? There are many things evolution cannot really explain beyond conjecture.

You are completely ignoring the facts that there are far older recorded myths than Genesis 1 & 2, from Egypt and Mesopotamia (from (3rd millennium BCE) Sumer to (7th-6th centuries BCE) Neo-Babylonian dynasty. And the 6th century Israelites/Jews were no more knowledgeable than the Mesopotamians and Egyptians.

And most likely, the exiled Judah hostages borrowed from the Babylonian religion’s creation myths.

Even the 6-day creation in Genesis 1, bear striking to the order of creation from Enūma Eliš (the epic of Marduk that was composed around the 17th century BCE).

All you are doing is making apologetic excuses about the creation, and making up misinformation about evolutionary biology & abiogenesis.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That's true enough.

Nah, it has nothing to do with that. It has to do with the fact that science can only explore measurable phenomena. Anything that exists outside the natural realm is simply not the purview of science.
I think psychology has a better claim to being a science than it had in 1990, when the old order began to change. The same is true of psychiatry and anthropology and sociology. They've put the afterdinner cigar and brandy away and starting testing various hypotheses based on surveys and social statistics. (Some of them overlap with the people who give politicians advice on what to pitch and where.)

Coming towards them on that road are the advances in mapping the brain, and coming to understand its interconnections and how the whole factory functions.

I don't suggest they offer perfection yet. What I emphasize is the shift to going after the answers based on facts and the testing and retesting of hypotheses. And some of the various psychiatric drugs in that period have been remarkably successful for a substantial fraction of their patients.

In these areas science is making all the progress. The contributions from religion have been extremely small, and as far as I can tell will remain so, since they aren't even looking.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
What about the idea of the "Big Bang" regarding the origin of the universe? Seems that it is taken by scientists to be within their purview.
That is because the concept is testable.

Is God testable? I would say no. I like to say that only false versions of God can be tested and refuted. That does not mean that the overarching version of God, the real deal, can be tested. Which of course means that there cannot be any scientific evidence for God. That is the bad news. The good news is that there cannot be any scientific evidence against God.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The Big Bang is a theory about the origins of the natural world. It is based on observable, measurable phenomena. That's why it is within science's purview.
I believe scientists are still not able to figure out with any degree of certitude how the mass, if it were, got there in the first place.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You are completely ignoring the facts that there are far older recorded myths than Genesis 1 & 2, from Egypt and Mesopotamia (from (3rd millennium BCE) Sumer to (7th-6th centuries BCE) Neo-Babylonian dynasty. And the 6th century Israelites/Jews were no more knowledgeable than the Mesopotamians and Egyptians.

And most likely, the exiled Judah hostages borrowed from the Babylonian religion’s creation myths.

Even the 6-day creation in Genesis 1, bear striking to the order of creation from Enūma Eliš (the epic of Marduk that was composed around the 17th century BCE).

All you are doing is making apologetic excuses about the creation, and making up misinformation about evolutionary biology & abiogenesis.
Do you actually think you know when the accounts in the Bible were written?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You are completely ignoring the facts that there are far older recorded myths than Genesis 1 & 2, from Egypt and Mesopotamia (from (3rd millennium BCE) Sumer to (7th-6th centuries BCE) Neo-Babylonian dynasty. And the 6th century Israelites/Jews were no more knowledgeable than the Mesopotamians and Egyptians.

And most likely, the exiled Judah hostages borrowed from the Babylonian religion’s creation myths.

Even the 6-day creation in Genesis 1, bear striking to the order of creation from Enūma Eliš (the epic of Marduk that was composed around the 17th century BCE).

All you are doing is making apologetic excuses about the creation, and making up misinformation about evolutionary biology & abiogenesis.
I hope you realize that I do not believe each day of creation was 24 hours each, but clearly enough, to me at least, the last day (or 7th day) cited is still ongoing. Just so you know what I believe about the length of each creative day.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I believe scientists are still not able to figure out with any degree of certitude how the mass, if it were, got there in the first place.

That's not the point of the Big Bang Theory. As I've posted numerous times, we will probably never know with any certainty how it all started.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Define away. Just remember that if you wish to discuss the scientific theory of evolution from biology, you are not entitled to your own "definitions".


You have it backwards.
Life adapts to the environment. Not the other way round.
The impression I got from the topic subject, is the observation that astral physics and cosmology, does the same for the universe, as biology does for life. Both could be called evolution. The former shows how the universe began and unfolded, just as the evolution fixates on the first replicators, as astral physics uses the BB. Both show how each aspect changes with time and how both evolve in their own ways.

Evolution comes from Latin ēvolūtiō (stem ēvolūtiōn- ) “unrolling a papyrus scroll, reading through (an author's words or a book),” a derivative of the verb ēvolvere “to roll out or away, unroll (a papyrus scroll), uncover, unwrap, unfold by using the intellect.”

Since the universe evolved first; intellectual unfolded, before life and life appears within the evolving universe, biological evolution is a subset of something even larger than itself. We have only found life on earth, so what is it about our planet, that came together, before life, that made life possible, since life is not very common based on hard evidence?


Nonsense.

In fact, ironically, evolution theory has been called the "unified field theory" of the biological sciences, because it ties everything together in biology, micro-biology, genetics, molecular biology, anatomy, bio-chemistry, paleontology, etc... Each of which are pretty independent fields.

And it goes even further then that.... Take the discovery of Tiktaalik for example. Found by prediction as a result of collaboration with geologists.
Paleontologists had a timeframe in mind (some 350 million years ago) and a specific type of environment (swampy shallow waters) for a transitional species reflecting the transition of fish-like sea animals to 4-legged land crawlers. In collaboration with anatomy experts they had anatomical features in mind also.
Geologists supplied them with potential places where they could find exposed rock of that age which at that time consisted of the correct environment.
It only took a few weeks of digging to find exactly what they expected to find: a 350 million year old "fish-apod" with the exact transitional features they expected.


That's explanatory power for ya. Multiple independent fields, multiple independent lines of research / knowledge / inquiry, all converging on the same answers.


The idea that each of these fields of expertise only live on their own little island is either extremely ignorant or just a plain lie.
These many fields are important, but there is much more to science than just these bio-related niches. These do integrate a larger portion of the forest, but the full forest of science knowledge, needs to include physics; see above, and even consciousness. Much of evolution will not work without consciousness, but it is not included in your list, as being prominent enough. Your list is more DNA hardware but lacks software.

Evolution also lacks Abiogenesis, which more connected to the physical chemical side of the life's appearance, closer to physical chemistry. A water variable for evolution is far more universal and integrating over the widest range of science, including all of biological evolution.

Water is the second most abundant molecule in the universe, behind only H2. Helium is an atom and does not form stable molecules to be part of an abundant molecule. Water is the most abundant solid; ice, in the universe. H2 does not freeze until -434F, while water freezes at +32F. Hydrogen or H2, once you warm solid hydrogen up, at all, it melts and boils and flies apart. Water can stay solid and liquid much long under pressure, to allow solid materials to gather and compress for a star's core.

Solid water or ice is critical to star formation. Gravity can attract solids much easier than gases with water; ice very abundant. Gases work better after the star have gown. Water is also unique in that water contracts when it melts; expand when it freezes. This somewhat unique anomaly of water is important to jump starting the fusion core of a forming star. The 10% volume contraction, going from ice to liquid water, as gravity does work and creates center of gravity heat, creates what I like to call fusion hammer. Fusion hammer is cascading collapse of the starter ice into liquid, creating a cascade collapse into core, that can fire up the deuterium/water cylinder; fusion. The abundance of water in the universe also implies water then begets even more water, from the star collecting H2 to add to the fusion to oxygen.

New studies now show that stars and galaxies formed much earlier in the universe, than was originally assumed; 100's of millions of years. This new data could explain how the first stars could have formed easier with just hydrogen gas. The universe was much denser that early and gravity was stringer and could gather even hot hydrogen gas into stars. As the universe expanded, cooled and water began to form, freeze and collect the next generation of stars could form easier, with less gravity via water/ice.

The two most common reactive elements in the universe are Hydrogen and Oxygen, which is the foundation of all Chemistry; acids and bases, reduction and oxidation. Water is the gold standard by which we compare many chemical parameters and reactions. Water is even the root of the Metric System. 1cm3 of water is 1ml in volume, and weights one gram and if one gram of water is cubed, each side is 1cm. Universal standard of measurement can be derived anywhere in the universe, we can find even a small amount of water.

If one was forced to include the evolution of the universe into biological evolution, biological is too narrow, to be a good integral approach. I like water since it is one of the main products of stars and star formation, and by touching everything in cells, water mirrors the organic diversity, via integrated binary hydrogen bonding states within the liquid water matrix.

The processing of the genetic information within DNA is facilitated by highly discriminatory and strong protein binding. It has been shown that the interfacial water molecules can serve as 'hydration fingerprints' of a given DNA sequence [889].

This finger printing is one example of how water can reflect the details of specific organic surfaces. Theoretically a water simulation approach would have the binary switches of many hydrogen bonding hydrogen of many connected water molecules, set, based on the organic surface activity and geometry. We can use the fingerprint water halos; one variable, for fast simulations in one variable.
 
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Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Since the universe evolved first; intellectual unfolded, before life and life appears within the evolving universe, biological evolution is a subset of something even larger than itself. We have only found life on earth, so what is it about our planet, that came together, before life, that made life possible, since life is not very common based on hard evidence?
If you were younger it is quite possible that you might witness the discovery of life other than on Earth. So would this change your views if such did happen? Given that I am rather disappointed with the impatience of so many here on RF to have all the answers from science NOW - when it has a good track record but it still takes time to gather evidence. :rolleyes:
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I believe scientists are still not able to figure out with any degree of certitude how the mass, if it were, got there in the first place.
The mass? Do you mean the singularity? It was not made up of anything that had mass, since matter did not exist yet.

Because space and time came into existence at the Big Bang, it really makes no sense to ask what came before. It's kind of like asking what is south of the south pole.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
The impression I got from the topic subject, is the observation that astral physics and cosmology, does the same for the universe, as biology does for life. Both could be called evolution. The former shows how the universe began and unfolded, just as the evolution fixates on the first replicators, as astral physics uses the BB. Both show how each aspect changes with time and how both evolve in their own ways.



Since the universe evolved first; intellectual unfolded, before life and life appears within the evolving universe, biological evolution is a subset of something even larger than itself. We have only found life on earth, so what is it about our planet, that came together, before life, that made life possible, since life is not very common based on hard evidence?

I fail to see the relevance of this word salad.


These many fields are important, but there is much more to science than just these bio-related niches. These do integrate a larger portion of the forest, but the full forest of science knowledge, needs to include physics; see above, and even consciousness. Much of evolution will not work without consciousness, but it is not included in your list, as being prominent enough. Your list is more DNA hardware but lacks software.

More word salad. And also a clear failure to understand what the scope of facts is that evolution addresses and explains.

Evolution also lacks Abiogenesis

As intended. Abiogenesis is not within its scope.

, which more connected to the physical chemical side of the life's appearance, closer to physical chemistry. A water variable for evolution is far more universal and integrating over the widest range of science, including all of biological evolution.

Water is the second most abundant molecule in the universe, behind only H2. Helium is an atom and does not form stable molecules to be part of an abundant molecule. Water is the most abundant solid; ice, in the universe. H2 does not freeze until -434F, while water freezes at +32F. Hydrogen or H2, once you warm solid hydrogen up, at all, it melts and boils and flies apart. Water can stay solid and liquid much long under pressure, to allow solid materials to gather and compress for a star's core.

Solid water or ice is critical to star formation. Gravity can attract solids much easier than gases with water; ice very abundant. Gases work better after the star have gown. Water is also unique in that water contracts when it melts; expand when it freezes. This somewhat unique anomaly of water is important to jump starting the fusion core of a forming star. The 10% volume contraction, going from ice to liquid water, as gravity does work and creates center of gravity heat, creates what I like to call fusion hammer. Fusion hammer is cascading collapse of the starter ice into liquid, creating a cascade collapse into core, that can fire up the deuterium/water cylinder; fusion. The abundance of water in the universe also implies water then begets even more water, from the star collecting H2 to add to the fusion to oxygen.

New studies now show that stars and galaxies formed much earlier in the universe, than was originally assumed; 100's of millions of years. This new data could explain how the first stars could have formed easier with just hydrogen gas. The universe was much denser that early and gravity was stringer and could gather even hot hydrogen gas into stars. As the universe expanded, cooled and water began to form, freeze and collect the next generation of stars could form easier, with less gravity via water/ice.

The two most common reactive elements in the universe are Hydrogen and Oxygen, which is the foundation of all Chemistry; acids and bases, reduction and oxidation. Water is the gold standard by which we compare many chemical parameters and reactions. Water is even the root of the Metric System. 1cm3 of water is 1ml in volume, and weights one gram and if one gram of water is cubed, each side is 1cm. Universal standard of measurement can be derived anywhere in the universe, we can find even a small amount of water.

If one was forced to include the evolution of the universe into biological evolution, biological is too narrow, to be a good integral approach. I like water since it is one of the main products of stars and star formation, and by touching everything in cells, water mirrors the organic diversity, via integrated binary hydrogen bonding states within the liquid water matrix.

Does any of this have a point?

This finger printing is one example of how water can reflect the details of specific organic surfaces. Theoretically a water simulation approach would have the binary switches of many hydrogen bonding hydrogen of many connected water molecules, set, based on the organic surface activity and geometry. We can use the fingerprint water halos; one variable, for fast simulations in one variable.

More word salad.


None of this has any relevance to the theory of evolution. Or seemingly anything else. Seems to be just rambling designed only to avoid addressing the points in the post you reply to, which you literally completely ignored.

Didn't expect anything else from you though.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I fail to see the relevance of this word salad.




More word salad. And also a clear failure to understand what the scope of facts is that evolution addresses and explains.



As intended. Abiogenesis is not within its scope.



Does any of this have a point?



More word salad.


None of this has any relevance to the theory of evolution. Or seemingly anything else. Seems to be just rambling designed only to avoid addressing the points in the post you reply to, which you literally completely ignored.

Didn't expect anything else from you though.
I tend to totally skip over his posts. The longer that they are the worse that they are.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The mass? Do you mean the singularity? It was not made up of anything that had mass, since matter did not exist yet.

Because space and time came into existence at the Big Bang, it really makes no sense to ask what came before. It's kind of like asking what is south of the south pole.
Oh? So the postulation is that something exploded from nothing, is that it? And you know that for certain, is that true, that space and time came into existence at the so-called big bang, right?
 
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