Evolution of what?

[Audie]

Are you kidding me? There are almost 5000 religions in the world today. If you think one person can study them all, you live in a different universe.

As I said, it is enough to study the 5-7 major religions of the world, plus a diverse sampling of the smaller ones. That really IS good enough to learn the general truths about religion. If you can't agree to that, then you are basically saying a PhD is worthless.

After noting the similarities in each religion a
person starts to kinda see a pattern.

 

[ChieftheCef]

Which jungle?

And what rivers?

Do you mean the rivers mentioned in Genesis 2?

If so, then Pishon & Gibon don’t exist. Havilah, where Pishon surrounded it, and include where gold, onyx & bdellium were found.

Watch the video and investigate it I want to know if it's true someone please. If it's false it's nice to know.

While the land between Euphrates & Tigris point to today’s Iraq, there were never rainforest let alone a jungle.

I was just guessing as to what it might be, but it would certainly be lush with four rivers carrying water and silt.

Mesopotamia proper is surrounded by arid regions, there were never forests in this region, even during the Neolithic period (11,000 to 5200 years ago.

The neolithic is not the right time for this, fire was invented prior, 2 million years prior.
"Fire was used beginning approximately two million years ago and was in constant habitual use by about 400,000 years ago." Discovery of Fire | Overview & History - Lesson | Study.com.

The cumulative of the fire was that they would be deserts by the time of whenever practically.

Move to the upper region, where Euphrates & Tigris begin to flow from, from the Armenian Highlands, which are more fertile than Mesopotamia, it is the steppe, hence mainly region of grass and shrubs, not a place that would call jungle.

Why, again , is this not due to the carbon dioxide of 2 million years of fire

What Genesis tells me, the author(s), whoever wrote Genesis, doesn’t really have great knowledge of west Asia.

Perhaps

You might called Havilah & Pishon, and the Gibon, “legendary“, but I certainly would put these places as more mythological than legendary.

Including the mythological, are the Garden of Eden, Land of the Nod, Enoch (city supposedly built by Cain)…they don’t exist except in a story of “Creation”.

I don't doubt it. But if they're mentioned by other civilizations under names other than Eden than it was probably legendary, regardless of how long ago it existed. Monotheists must lie to keep their ideology up.

Also by no means does this mean Jesus is God. I can argue he isn't, all day. Just that there may even have been a place south east of the end of the inlet of the Mesopotamian lands.

 

[ChieftheCef]

After noting the similarities in each religion a
person starts to kinda see a pattern.

That's what I'm saying, due, did you see how he took my words, misunderstood them, and then misrepresented them. No mods care.

 

[gnostic]

That area back before man had discovered the use of fire had been jungle.

One point, I forgot to address is your claim “discovered the use of fire”.

They don’t know who were first to make fire, nor where or when it took place, nor how exactly they made fire.

All they would know what evidence are available and left behind, to show possible or probable signs of fire.

The earliest evidence of fire being used by Homo sapiens from about 300,000 years, in Jebel Imroud, Morocco.

But Homo sapiens didn’t discover fire. There are earlier evidence that the Homo erectus were responsible for controlled fire.

I was just guessing as to what it might be, but it would certainly be lush with four rivers carrying water and silt.

From the north, there are many tributaries that feed onto Upper Euphrates & Upper Tigris (that would be the Armenian Highlands), and the north is much more richer in fertility of soil, so yes, heavy rain will result in erosion and that would bring these silt to Lower Mesopotamia, making farming possible.

but as I said, much of Middle & Lower Mesopotamia is arid, so ancient farmers have to resort to irrigation, to bring water to the fields. The arid Mesopotamia don’t receive much rain even in ancient & Neolithic times.

 

[ChieftheCef]

One point, I forgot to address is your claim “discovered the use of fire”.

They don’t know who were first to make fire, nor where or when it took place, nor how exactly they made fire.

All they would know what evidence are available and left behind, to show possible or probable signs of fire.

The earliest evidence of fire being used by Homo sapiens from about 300,000 years, in Jebel Imroud, Morocco.

But Homo sapiens didn’t discover fire. There are earlier evidence that the Homo erectus were responsible for controlled fire.




From the north, there are many tributaries that feed onto Upper Euphrates & Upper Tigris (that would be the Armenian Highlands), and the north is much more richer in fertility of soil, so yes, heavy rain will result in erosion and that would bring these silt to Lower Mesopotamia, making farming possible.

but as I said, much of Middle & Lower Mesopotamia is arid, so ancient farmers have to resort to irrigation, to bring water to the fields. The arid Mesopotamia don’t receive much rain even in ancient & Neolithic times.

Right because of use of fire

 

[gnostic]

I was just guessing as to what it might be, but it would certainly be lush with four rivers carrying water and silt.

I still have the same question I am asking you.

Again, if you were referring to Genesis 2’s Pishon & Gibon, these 2 rivers don’t exist geographically. These 2 names don’t exist anywhere other than in Genesis.

So if Euphrates & Tigris are 2 out of the 4 rivers, then what are the 2 other rivers, are you talking about?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I still have the same question I am asking you.

Again, if you were referring to Genesis 2’s Pishon & Gibon, these 2 rivers don’t exist geographically. These 2 names don’t exist anywhere other than in Genesis.

So if Euphrates & Tigris are 2 out of the 4 rivers, then what are the 2 other rivers, are you talking about?

The Mississippi and the Missouri. Dang, that is some active plate tectonics!

 

[YoursTrue]

The Mississippi and the Missouri. Dang, that is some active plate tectonics!

Yeah, just reading about the explosions in Krakatoa.

 

[Audie]

The Mississippi and the Missouri. Dang, that is some active plate tectonics!

Hydropate

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Hydropate

Hydroplate theory is not even real science. It's a pseudoscience made up by creationists.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Hydroplate theory is not even real science. It's a pseudoscience made up by creationists.

This is just a hunch, considering that @Audie has done some real geology, but she might just know that.

 

[ChieftheCef]

I still have the same question I am asking you.

Again, if you were referring to Genesis 2’s Pishon & Gibon, these 2 rivers don’t exist geographically. These 2 names don’t exist anywhere other than in Genesis.

So if Euphrates & Tigris are 2 out of the 4 rivers, then what are the 2 other rivers, are you talking about?

Yes they are dried-up ancient riverbeds now. Apparently.

 

[Audie]

Yes they are dried-up ancient riverbeds now. Apparently.

Made-up -idly, unless you have some facts

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Some feedback for you.

(1) You didn't determine the meaning of Eden, except that it translates to plentiful. Is Eden a city, region, or a geographic area?
(2) You connect Eden with being on a mountain, quoting Ezekiel 28, but this is your interpretation, and unsupported.
(3) I suggest Gihon, which means bursting forth, refers to the spring fed (Lion's mouth) river that is the Indus
(4) Pishon is the Nile. The land of Havilah is Wadi Hammamat, which translates to Gateway to India/Havilah. The Nile encircles/borders this land
(5) You don't explore a potential Mesopotamian location such as the Persian Gulf where a garden could have existed and then disappeared

I here am some response to your five points.

If you have another meaning for Eden other than plentiful, please do indicate.

• If Ezekiel 28 does not say Eden was a mountain, then what does it say? You have to give your alternative. Please give your alternative interpretation.
• I am happy that you think Gihon was the Indus River and so you are bringing it to the Indus Valley. But the Dion cannot be Indus because the four rivers have to have a source at one place. I am showing that such four rivers are found at Pushkar in Rajasthan as given in my paper and I'm attaching the same again.
• Again, Pishon is the Nile we have to look at the four rivers having their source at one place. Nile and Indus don't work.
• I do explore the Mesopotamian location at Qurnah on the shut al Arab in the Persian near the Persian Gulf.

I think we can always escape the difficulty by claiming that it has disappeared. But if Garden of Eden had disappeared, we have to show that there has been subsidence in the last 6000 years which is not established. Also, there is no archaeological evidence from underwater near in the Persian Gulf. So instead of Persian Gulf all I am saying is let us move it up to Qurnah on the shut al Arab and which I find in comparison with Pushkar to have given a very poor fit. So, I I appreciate your feedback, but I request you to look again at my paper on the three locations of Eden.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

I did. You didn't listen.

Eden was a place south east of The Euphrates and Tigris., now under water due to fires cumulatively changing the geology gradually over time.

Besides this Eden is a mythical place. The story is hogwash, snakes don't talk.

No, I am sorry. I do not see in your reply any reference to the three locations of the Garden of Eden that I discussed. If you just want to say that Eden is now under water without any evidence then there is nothing more than I can say. Thank you.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

There is no such place bold as you described based on objective evidence. A mystical(?) place puts it where it belongs mythology.

Though Joseph Campbell has described very clearly that myths do not arise in vacuum. There is always a kernel of some historical experience behind the myth. So, before we start debunking some idea as a myth, we have to look for that kernel of historical truth. And in this case, I do believe that Eden was located at Pushkar in the Indus Valley. I'm giving below the evidences in favor of locating the Garden of Eden in the Indus Valley.

The Garden of Eden is described as a place as a mountain with four rivers flowing in four directions. We find exactly such a situation at Pushkar in Rajasthan, in India.

The northward river is called Roop Nadi.

The eastward is called dai,

The southward is called Sagar mati

And westward is called Saraswati.

These four rivers have their source within an area of about ten kilometers.

Secondly, Eden is considered to be a place of plentifulness and at one of the three major lakes at Pushkar, namely the Buddha Pushkar Lake there is an artesian source of water which kept flowing across the 12 months. So, this area was very suitable for human habitation.


Thirdly, archaeological evidence for habitation at about 3500 BCE and earlier is found in that area. For the last 100,000 years the area has been habitat as indicated by archaeologist Allchin. So, I think there is a case for Eden to be located in the Indus Valley.

 

[GoodAttention]

I here am some response to your five points.

If you have another meaning for Eden other than plentiful, please do indicate.

Eden itself is a translation of the Hebrew. My point was that you didn't determine the meaning in your article, you only state that it meant plentiful. I'm sure it has many meanings, however the most common translation is that it describes paradise.

• If Ezekiel 28 does not say Eden was a mountain, then what does it say?

Ezekiel 28:13 - You were in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: carnelian, chrysolite and emerald, topaz, onyx and jasper, lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.

Ezekiel 28:14 - You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones.

Where does it say Eden was a mountain? Are you interpreting the "You" described to be Eden??

• You have to give your alternative. Please give your alternative interpretation.

Alternative to Ezekiel 28? It is describing a person, or perhaps a metaphor for Cain, but I also don't know I can only speculate. However I would disagree the wording suggests it is describing Eden.

• I am happy that you think Gihon was the Indus River and so you are bringing it to the Indus Valley. But the Dion cannot be Indus because the four rivers have to have a source at one place. I am showing that such four rivers are found at Pushkar in Rajasthan as given in my paper and I'm attaching the same again.

What is the true source of any river? It is rain. It is the water cycle.

The garden of Eden isn't a physical point from which the rivers must start from.

It is the point from which water rises to become clouds, and then rain to fall upon mountains that then become rivers.

• Again, Pishon is the Nile we have to look at the four rivers having their source at one place. Nile and Indus don't work.

If the rivers "don't work" either the rivers are wrong, or the idea that they have to originate as rivers from one physical point is wrong.

The descriptions for the Gihon to be the Indus (Singhi Kamban) and Pishon to be the Nile (Wadi Hammamat as Land of Havilah) are, in my opinion, correct without reasonable alternative.

Hence, see above why they do work.

• I do explore the Mesopotamian location at Qurnah on the shut al Arab in the Persian near the Persian Gulf.

The location, if it existed at all, is under the Persian Gulf waters.

Which is to say, any "physical property" of the Garden of Eden relate to the water cycle, but any "physical location" doesn't exist because there is no physical point from which the rivers must rise from.

 

[shunyadragon]

Though Joseph Campbell has described very clearly that myths do not arise in vacuum. There is always a kernel of some historical experience behind the myth.

Yes, but misrepresenting Joseph Campbell and claiming a historical basis for myths is not credible. Joseph Campbell did not consider myths real history.

So, before we start debunking some idea as a myth, we have to look for that kernel of historical truth. And in this case, I do believe that Eden was located at Pushkar in the Indus Valley. I'm giving below the evidences in favor of locating the Garden of Eden in the Indus Valley.

Academic history is not based on kernels of truth from mythology. Kernels of truth may help put mythology in the context of history, but it cannot justify mythology.

The existence Mount Ararat does not Justify the Noah and world flood story.

The Garden of Eden is described as a place as a mountain with four rivers flowing in four directions. We find exactly such a situation at Pushkar in Rajasthan, in India.

This can describe many locations in the Middle East. It remains the Garden of Eden is mythology and not based on any known historical facts,

The northward river is called Roop Nadi.

The eastward is called dai,

The southward is called Sagar mati

And westward is called Saraswati.

These four rivers have their source within an area of about ten kilometers.

So what????No relatonship to reality or academic history.

Secondly, Eden is considered to be a place of plentifulness and at one of the three major lakes at Pushkar, namely the Buddha Pushkar Lake there is an artesian source of water which kept flowing across the 12 months. So, this area was very suitable for human habitation.

You are still making vague undocumented association based on mythology

Thirdly, archaeological evidence for habitation at about 3500 BCE and earlier is found in that area. For the last 100,000 years the area has been habitat as indicated by archaeologist Allchin. So, I think there is a case for Eden to be located in the Indus Valley.

Bogus claims based on assumptions of mythology and selective misrepresentation of archeological evidence. No factual evidence whatsoever base on speculation of ancient mythology. The oldest known villages in the world are located in the Middle East. There is abundant evidence of habitation by humans over 300,000 years in Africa, Middle Est and Asia. The oldest is in Africa and the Middle East.

The origin of our evolution of our language is in the Steppes of Central Western Asia.

You are ignoring and failed to respond to the specific factual evidence for the accounts of Exodus based on Egypt and the Levant,

 

[ChieftheCef]

Made-up -idly, unless you have some facts

I already presented what may be facts. No one has investigated it yet

 

[shunyadragon]

I already presented what may be facts. No one has investigated it yet

What may be called?!?! Not always . . . I consider your conclusions in post#1503 hypothetical not factual.