Evolution Vs. Creationism

[Gloone]

Unless God is deliberately playing tricks on us, evolution must be true. Why?

Because bacteria eat nylon, an entirely synthetic, man-made substance. Nylon-eating bacteria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Unchanging organisms simply can't do that.

They sound like environmentally friendly bacteria to me. It would be nice to have more bacteria like that around. They could just clean up the planet on their own. Then when the little bacteria aren’t needed they can just decompose and go away. Also how do you know it was bacteria and not just the decomposition of the nylon material?

That example of Nylon seems no different than leaving a piece of metal outside in the elements and it rusting. Same with someone being outside in rough conditions for awhile without any shelter or proper clothing, someone that has a weak immune system is bound to get sick.

 

[Autodidact]

They sound like environmentally friendly bacteria to me. It would be nice to have more bacteria like that around. They could just clean up the planet on their own. Then when the little bacteria aren’t needed they can just decompose and go away. Also how do you know it was bacteria and not just the decomposition of the nylon material?

Because the bacteria are living off it.
You're right, though, environmentalists use bacteria to digest oil and other pollutants. Neat, eh?

That example of Nylon seems no different than leaving a piece of metal outside in the elements and it rusting. Same with someone being outside in rough conditions for awhile without any shelter or proper clothing, someone that has a weak immune system is bound to get sick.

what? They're not sick; they're a new kind of bacteria.

 

[LuisDantas]

They sound like environmentally friendly bacteria to me. It would be nice to have more bacteria like that around. They could just clean up the planet on their own. Then when the little bacteria aren’t needed they can just decompose and go away. Also how do you know it was bacteria and not just the decomposition of the nylon material?

It is bacteria that decompose fabrics. It can be seen under the microscope.

And yet, it was never observed in nylon until recently.

Where do you think those bacteria came from? Do you believe they were somehow hidden since early Creation? Do you believe they came to be recently? Do you see any third possibility?

That example of Nylon seems no different than leaving a piece of metal outside in the elements and it rusting.

Except that rust is simple oxidation, with no living beings involved, while putrefaction is consumption by microorganisms, mainly bacteria.

Same with someone being outside in rough conditions for awhile without any shelter or proper clothing, someone that has a weak immune system is bound to get sick.

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean here. What is the comparison you are trying to present?

 

[Pegg]

I would like to repeat the question, Is there any evidence against evolution?

reproduction
the genetic code
rna
dna
the spontaneous generation of life
mutation experiments
irreducible complexity
the fossil record
missing links
the human brain
the species barrier
the sudden appearance of species
Molecular biology - no simple beginning
Intermediate stages between organisms - dont exist
no trace of mammalian common ancestors
the synthetic theory does not explain the origin of complex organs

 

[Pegg]

Exactly. There are two kinds of people, those who accept science, and those who reject it in favor of Biblical literalism. The former gets you the Theory of Evolution (ToE.) The latter gets you Young Earth Creationism.

I will point out to the latter group that historically, science has a pretty good track record, and they might want to consider changing their theology to one that accommodates it.

the 'day' is not literal in genesis though

that is seen in the account itself where in chpt 2vs4 we see that all six days are called one day

so the days are not literal...they are periods. Hence why not all creationist are 'young earth' creationists.

 

[LuisDantas]

reproduction
the genetic code
rna
dna

Uh? How could any of those be taken as evidence against evolution?!?

Same for many below.

the spontaneous generation of life

That has not been observed and would be a separate matter, anyway.

mutation experiments
irreducible complexity

Irreducible complexity is an urban legend. There is a fine Dawkins book or two on the matter.

the fossil record
missing links
the human brain
the species barrier

More legends, except for the fossil record, which is severely misrepresented by creationists. I'm not sure what you mean by "the human brain" either.

the sudden appearance of species
Molecular biology - no simple beginning
Intermediate stages between organisms - dont exist
no trace of mammalian common ancestors
the synthetic theory does not explain the origin of complex organs

Sorry, but it is simply a matter of you not being aware of the current knowledge.

 

[Gloone]

It is bacteria that decompose fabrics. It can be seen under the microscope.

That is what decomposition is.

And yet, it was never observed in nylon until recently.

Maybe it is cheap or poorly fabricated nylon?

Where do you think those bacteria came from? Do you believe they were somehow hidden since early Creation? Do you believe they came to be recently? Do you see any third possibility?

Just about everything is capable of being decomposed whether it is man-made or not. What does it being synthetic have to do with anything. Those materials had to come from somewhere.

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean here. What is the comparison you are trying to present?

I was just making the comparison as to how a human can be affected by the elements opposed to a piece of metal or nylon.

 

[LuisDantas]

That is what decomposition is.

Maybe it is cheap or poorly fabricated nylon?

Too cheap to be capable of decomposing?

Thanks for the laugh

Just about everything is capable of being decomposed whether it is man-made or not. What does it being synthetic have to do with anything. Those materials had to come from somewhere.
I was just making the comparison as to how a human can be affected by the elements opposed to a piece of metal or nylon.

Unfortunately it is more complicated than that. The decomposition of organic materials is very different from the oxidation of metals, for instance.

Not everything decomposes, either. Have you heard of glass or diamond decomposing?

 

[Gloone]

Not everything decomposes, either. Have you heard of glass or diamond decomposing?

If you consider diamond tip needles on a record player a way of decomposition, sure!

 

[Gloone]

Too cheap to be capable of decomposing?

Thanks for the laugh

LOL.. no, just cheap nylon and a poorly fabricated man made material. Cheap material just has a smell to it, that smells cheap, have you ever noticed that?

 

[LuisDantas]

Not really the same thing. Diamond needles suffer abrasion, but they remain as diamond.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

It is bacteria that decompose fabrics. It can be seen under the microscope.

And yet, it was never observed in nylon until recently.

Where do you think those bacteria came from? Do you believe they were somehow hidden since early Creation? Do you believe they came to be recently? Do you see any third possibility?

The nylon eating bacteria is a great example of evolution considering nylon in itself is a man made material. So you're correct. Where did this bacteria come from? If "God" creates...what purpose does the "creation" of this bacteria serve considering it serves no purpose to man other than to understand how evolution works...?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

LOL.. no, just cheap nylon and a poorly fabricated man made material. Cheap material just has a smell to it, that smells cheap, have you ever noticed that?

It still doesn't answer the question as to where the bacteria came from. If nylon is strictly a man made material (recent man made material) then where did these bacteria come from?

 

[Gloone]

It still doesn't answer the question as to where the bacteria came from. If nylon is strictly a man made material (recent man made material) then where did these bacteria come from?

So are you implying creationism has something to do with it?

 

[LuisDantas]

No. The implication is that bacteria, having rather short lifespans and going through generations very quickly, mutate very quickly as well. The nylon-eating variety exists because it mutated from previously existing varieties.

One could offer that those bacteria were divinely created, I suppose, but that offers some difficulties for creationists. If those bacteria aren't new, it is a wonder that only recently they were observed eating nylon. If they are, and were divinely created, then their very existence is a challenge to literal interpretations of the Bible, not to mention a bit puzzling (why would God suddenly create such a variety of bacteria and apparently nothing else of notice?)

 

[Valjean]

Not everything decomposes, either. Have you heard of glass or diamond decomposing?

Actually glass does decompose/oxidise, Luis. But it does it so slowly it's hard to notice. Archaeologists use the oxidation as a dating method for obsidian and glass artifacts.

LOL.. no, just cheap nylon and a poorly fabricated man made material. Cheap material just has a smell to it, that smells cheap, have you ever noticed that?

The industrial quality of the nylon is irrelevant. The point is, a hundred years ago nothing ate nylon. The stuff didn't exist.

Plastic's generally indigestible.. It takes some pretty innovative chemical tricks to accomplish it, and because such tricks are both metabolically costly and -- in the absence of anything to digest -- useless, it's a pretty sure bet that this new species of nylon-eating bacteria didn't exist prior to Nylon's recent appearance on the planet.

What happened was that a population of bacteria found itself surrounded by a constant supply of strange new stuff. If your generation time is half an hour or so mutations are ten thousand per hour. Evolution can happen pretty quickly, and evolution did what evolution does. It adapted to an altered environment. Some of the billions of mutations chanced to have the metabolism to exploit this new stuff. These thrived and the trick was passed on and refined. Soon, mirabile dictu, there was an entirely new species happily chowing down on this new food source.

And no, this isn't "ordinary decomposition." You can put the little beasties under the microscope and watch them do their thing.

 

[outhouse]

Actually glass does decompose/oxidise

I think your nit picking and wrong.

you assume all glass is exposed to direct sunlight

even then it does NOT really decompose by definition.

Under certain circumstances, some types of glass do decompose; this process is called devitrification

Glass is also subject to chemical decomposition when exposed to certain compounds and solutions, such as hydrofluoric acid (HF), which is commonly used to etch or dissolve glass. Relatively dilute (3-6%) solutions of HF are very good at cleaning "oily" or greasy glassware- common to the organic chemistry lab- by chemically acting upon the glass substrate, dissolving it and removing any stain. Some other fluorine compounds can do this as well.

Similarly, strong alkali such as sodium hydroxide or potassium hydroxide can etch or dissolve small amounts of glass. Repeated exposure or exposure at high temperature can cause great damage to calibrated or precision glassware, as can certain solutions (KOH in ethanol, for example).

But, by and large, soda lime and borosilicate glasses are stable solids that are not likely to revert to a different state without some sort of impetus.

 

[Valjean]

Interesting points, outhouse, and I was getting a bit nit-picky. Here is what I had in mind, though:
Natural glass: Obsidian hydration dating - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Manufactured: Glass Hydration: A Method of Dating Glass Objects | Science/AAAS

 

[outhouse]

Interesting points, outhouse, and I was getting a bit nit-picky. Here is what I had in mind, though:
Natural glass: Obsidian hydration dating - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Manufactured: Glass Hydration: A Method of Dating Glass Objects | Science/AAAS

its all good i learned about glass hydration

 

[Gloone]

Under certain circumstances, some types of glass do decompose;

The same thing can be said about this nylon 6 though. It isn't actual nylon 6 either just some byproducts of it.

From Wiki article Poly linked;
In 1975 a team of Japanese scientists discovered a strain of Flavobacterium, living in ponds containing waste water from a nylon factory, that was capable of digesting certain byproducts of nylon 6 manufacture…

They are just byproducts of the nylon 6 that people threw in a pound full of waste. It isn’t like it was an actual piece of nylon (note; there are many different “types&#8221 that someone took outside and the bacteria just jumped on it and started eating it. As a matter of fact, it sounds like a manmade accident or a discovery that people just stumbled upon more so than evolution. Stuff like that is why there are so many environmentalists now, because people don’t know the proper way to dispose of manmade waste and materials. Stuff like that is why there are Pagans gathering at Stonehenge asking the gods for help and showing their respects for the planet, wanting to build their new religion around environmental issues.