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Evolution vs Intelligent design/creationism
- Thread starter Stevex27
- Start date
I'll argue for evolution+intelligent design. The view of materialist science is upward causation; atoms create molecules; create further and further complexity until you have me typing on a keyboard.
I have come to accept downward causation. It all begins with Consciousness/God/Brahman; a creative thought form creates the spiritual realms down to the physical realm in accordance with this thought.
Materialism: Matter is primary and consciousness is a production of Matter
Spiritualism: Consciousness is primary and matter is a production of consciousness
Why am I on the Spiritualist side? 1) My study of paranormal phenomena has convinced me that consciousness is not dependent on the physical. 2) The spiritual masters I have come to respect tell us that if you quiet the noisy ego layers of your mind, you will find One consciousness as the source of all.
I have come to accept downward causation. It all begins with Consciousness/God/Brahman; a creative thought form creates the spiritual realms down to the physical realm in accordance with this thought.
Materialism: Matter is primary and consciousness is a production of Matter
Spiritualism: Consciousness is primary and matter is a production of consciousness
Why am I on the Spiritualist side? 1) My study of paranormal phenomena has convinced me that consciousness is not dependent on the physical. 2) The spiritual masters I have come to respect tell us that if you quiet the noisy ego layers of your mind, you will find One consciousness as the source of all.
Evolution has been proven countless times. My belief is "God is who, evolution is how". This means that the world was created with laws, including evolution, that inevitably resulted is us. I don't believe in "magic wand waving" creation of animals including man.
I would not use 'proof' or proven' to describe the scientific certainty of evolution. Nonetheless the science of evolution falsified beyond a reasonable doubt describing the history of life on earth, and abiogenesis is the best answer we have concerning the origins of life.
The problem with the Intelligent Design philosophy is that the claims cannot be falsified with scientific methods. The catch 22 is that it cannot be falsified that Natural Law, and natural processes could not explain the origins of life and evolution, which unfortunately would be trying to falsify the negative, and you end up with phony science with theological assumptions, which would be circular.
The belief in God and Creation would be an assumption of belief outside any objective verifiable evidence.
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There are also some flavors of deist who believe that a god created the universe and life but then left/stepped back and let it do it's own thing after that. Not sure if there are any here though.
Only in the very technical sense that nothing in science is proven. But in that sense, the theories of gravity and germs haven't been proven as well.
Again? Why?
Skwim
Veteran Member
Probably because Stevex27is brand new to the forum and has never heard of all the "agains" that have been bandied about. Don't you think that old farts such as yourself should be a little more charitable toward their ignorance and enthusiasm? I do. But then I'm special. Mom even says so.
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Uh, what?
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
I believe that, if there is a god, something like this would make the most sense. Big bang, evolution, etc. occurred, and was perhaps guided by this cosmic force/entity intertwined with the universe, and maybe itself was "born", and then formed, alongside the universe as one and the same. Of course, this is just silly, empty "what if" speculation.
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Evolution doesn't require belief inasmuch as the sun doesn't require belief. The scientific minded shy away from the word "believe." Science is hypothesized observed and measured. Its theories are tested and modified as hypotheses are falsified or verified. It is objective observation, not subjective belief.
From what source did you gain this "knowledge?"
There is strong evidence to support many scientific theories in evolution. These scientific theories are based on proven facts.
Evolution happened. It is still happening. It will continue to happen.
To a certain extent the Baha'i Faith has Deist aspects in that God is not a hands on manipulative God interceding here or there in an arbitrary manner, or answering prayers for some and not others. To a great extent God Created our physical existence, life, and humanity through natural processes inherent with the attributes of God.
The Theist aspects are that thee is cyclic progressive Revelation where God provides guidance for humanity. This Revelation takes place through the writings and through minds of humanity. Prayer and meditation for the most part is for communion with the Divine for guidance for the spiritual journey of life.
Milton Platt
Well-Known Member
To what degree of certainty do you need evolution to be proven, then?
scott777
Member
I know this is nothing to do with evolution, but if consciousness could exist without physical apparatus, why does everything we know that is consciousness also happen to have physical apparatus. Do you know of anything that doesn't?
I think multiple paranormal subfields point to consciousness without physical apparatus; Near Death Experiences, spirit/ghost phenomena, spirit communication, etc..
Guy Threepwood
Mighty Pirate
in short..
Darwinism was a beautiful, intuitive, elegant theory- in the context of the Victorian age understanding of reality it was developed in. A reality where a handful of simple 'immutable' laws + lots of time and space, were all that was required, for all the wonders of physical reality to develop themselves 'naturally'.
So Darwin (and many others) very reasonably proposed that life would develop by the same general mechanism as the physics and chemistry that preceded it. So I agree entirely with Darwin's original premise, only today- post quantum mechanics- this means much deeper, more sophisticated & mysterious, unpredictable guiding forces, information systems- specifying and predetermining precisely where, how and when development will occur.
So this in itself does not technically equate to God, just as the information systems behind physics can still be put down to chance origin (if you have an infinite probability machine handy!)
But creative intelligence IS the only known mechanism by which such information systems can be proven to originate, so my money would be on that rather than an unproven hypothetical mechanism.
scott777
Member
I've always been fascinated by the supernatural, but in reality, it simply has no evidence. I wish it did! But all of these things could equally be experienced using drugs or mistaken or made up. The problem is that we do have brains, and if we injure them or operate on them, we can lose the ability to think and function. Thus strongly suggests that our mental functioning is entirely dependent on the brain.
I think you are confusing the words evidence with proof. I disagree that it has no evidence. People describing things at a distance; knowing events around them in NDEs with no higher brain functioning occurring; ghostly phenomena; spirit communication revealing things not reasonably known by the receiver through ordinary processes, etc.. I have looked into these things and do believe evidence for consciousness without physical apparatus does exist. Yes, it is just my serious opinion on the cumulative evidence from multiple fields of the paranormal.
I have come to believe that in normal waking consciousness we have interpenetrating physical and super-physical (astral/mental) bodies. In the normal awake state consciousness is using the physical brain to be part of the physical world, so damage to the brain will cause a damaged ability to express normal consciousness. However at death and other traumatic events the astral/mental body can separate from the physical and experience consciousness without the physical platform (as reported in things like NDEs).
What do you mean "what" it is still a theory. It hasnt been proven to be 100% fact, but I think it is the most plausible.
I would have to agree, but we still have not seen evolution in its act. We can see gravity and bacteria and how they act.