Evolution, what evidence is there and what does creationism have?

[painted wolf]

Poor Pierre hasn't done any work since the 1990's....

Another victim of the creationist productivity plummet....

wa:do

 

[themadhair]

Great video showing exactly where Ida fits into the grand scheme of things:
YouTube - Ida Know

 

[themadhair]

About Us
Are these also AiG folks or am I missing something? Jonathan Sarfati, for example, has wrote a shed-load of contentless content for AiG and Pierre Jerlström writes for Answers.

There are the usual hilarities too. This paper from Emil Silvestru, for example, makes use of carbon dating. Amazing how these techniques seem to stop working after they get their phd isn’t it?

 

[Tristesse]

And another question why are you so eager to steer away from the origins of life? or better yet the origins of the universe. Can you please enlighten me as to how the known universe and everything in it came to be?

Because thats not what this topic is about, if you want to discuss that, start a new thread.

 

[Autodidact]

About Us
Are these also AiG folks or am I missing something? Jonathan Sarfati, for example, has wrote a shed-load of contentless content for AiG and Pierre Jerlström writes for Answers.

There are the usual hilarities too. This paper from Emil Silvestru, for example, makes use of carbon dating. Amazing how these techniques seem to stop working after they get their phd isn’t it?

Are you not up on the great AIG/CMI split, including accusations of witchcraft and necrophilia? It's tons of fun. If you enjoy Dallas style soap opera, here's the report. In the end though, it just comes down to money. Creationism is lucrative.

 

[painted wolf]

I have to say... CMI is not quite as wackaloon as AIG...

Just from comparing the "statements of faith"....

wa:do

 

[Jose Fly]

Perhaps before everyone starts debating aequitas' assertion about "no new genetic information", it would be prudent for aequitas to tell us...

1) How are you defining "genetic information"?

2) How are you measuring "genetic information"?

 

[painted wolf]

well... I'm afraid I already brought up frame-shift, duplication and other mutations that result in novel genes.

I'm reasonably certain that he doesn't know what "genetic information" is outside of the fact that it is a creationist propaganda buzz term.

wa:do

 

[themadhair]

Are you not up on the great AIG/CMI split, including accusations of witchcraft and necrophilia? It's tons of fun. If you enjoy Dallas style soap opera, here's the report. In the end though, it just comes down to money. Creationism is lucrative.

Still as funny as when I first read that.

 

[Jose Fly]

I'm reasonably certain that he doesn't know what "genetic information" is outside of the fact that it is a creationist propaganda buzz term

Well, I guess we'll see.

 

[aequitas]

You don't accept the Theory of Evolution because it only addresses one of the biggest problems in Biology, and not other problems? Do you reject electrical theory because it does not address plumbing? Do you reject atomic theory because it does not address the origin of stars? I'm guessing that you don't actually know what the ToE is, which is probably the source of your problem.

Biological evolution ... is change in the properties of populations of organisms that transcend the lifetime of a single individual. The ontogeny of an individual is not considered evolution; individual organisms do not evolve. The changes in populations that are considered evolutionary are those that are inheritable via the genetic material from one generation to the next. Biological evolution may be slight or substantial; it embraces everything from slight changes in the proportion of different alleles within a population (such as those determining blood types) to the successive alterations that led from the earliest protoorganism to snails, bees, giraffes, and dandelions."
-- Douglas J. Futuyma in Evolutionary Biology, Sinauer Associates 1986

Thats the definition of ToE that i refer to.

 

[darkendless]

You don't accept the Theory of Evolution because it only addresses one of the biggest problems in Biology, and not other problems? Do you reject electrical theory because it does not address plumbing? Do you reject atomic theory because it does not address the origin of stars? I'm guessing that you don't actually know what the ToE is, which is probably the source of your problem.

Don't forget that the electrical theory is wrong. Isaac Newton described the flow of current as the negative flow of electrons when in fact the flow is positive, meaning all calculations of electricity have the wrong sign

 

[aequitas]

We do see this. Frame shift mutations, duplications and other mutations make new information all the time and are very commonly seen.
wa:do

Are you saying Frame shift mutations benefit species? cause don't they cause severe genetic disease's?

 

[painted wolf]

Are you saying Frame shift mutations benefit species? cause don't they cause severe genetic disease's?

Not all of them do... you likely have a few in you. :beach:

wa:do

 

[aequitas]

fair enough.

 

[Nepenthe]

I'll give aequitas props for quoting Futuyma.
Frameshifts are simply changes in amino acid sequences from the mutation site- it's all about the proteins.
As for the beneficial: nylonase was the result of a frame shift. And as painted wolf said, we're full of 'em.

 

[Autodidact]

Biological evolution ... is change in the properties of populations of organisms that transcend the lifetime of a single individual. The ontogeny of an individual is not considered evolution; individual organisms do not evolve. The changes in populations that are considered evolutionary are those that are inheritable via the genetic material from one generation to the next. Biological evolution may be slight or substantial; it embraces everything from slight changes in the proportion of different alleles within a population (such as those determining blood types) to the successive alterations that led from the earliest protoorganism to snails, bees, giraffes, and dandelions."
-- Douglas J. Futuyma in Evolutionary Biology, Sinauer Associates 1986

Thats the definition of ToE that i refer to.

That's a correct definition of evolution, but not the Theory of Evolution (ToE). The ToE is not the same as evolution, in the same way as the Theory of Gravity is not the same thing as gravity. The theory is an explanation of the phenomenon. Do you know what ToE says? (I'm guessing no.)

 

[Autodidact]

Are you saying Frame shift mutations benefit species? cause don't they cause severe genetic disease's?

Many do, but those do not get retained and reproduced. Some are beneficial--read the thread. btw, Painted Wolf has a very high level of expertise in this area.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

Many do, but those do not get retained and reproduced. Some are beneficial--read the thread. btw, Painted Wolf has a very high level of expertise in this area.

Why IS it that creationists can't get this into their heads?
Sure mutations can be harmful. Many ARE. And many more are simply useless and of no consequence. But the helpful ones are selected for and get passed into a population.

 

[painted wolf]

Because they like the world in simple black or white contrast.
It's either good or bad... not shades of grey. Unfortunately in nature the two colors you never find are true black and true white... (usually actually shades of blue or yellow)

wa:do