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evolutions biggest mystery

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Then were do laws come from?
The simplest hypothesis, the most complex hypotheses, theories, laws? Aren't they all conceptual models? Isn’t pretty much every idea we have a conceptual model? Even an hypothesis can have numerous components, which in themselves are hypotheses. I do realize different disciplines use the terms slightly different. But I’m not aware that any place theory above law in a hierarchy of complexity. As far as I’ve previously been aware, the terms have always related to our confidence in the truth value of the model, not it’s complexity.
Laws are simple descriptions (usually mathematical) of observable events. They do not make any statement about what causes the event, only describing how they happen. They also don't describe the entirety of the phenomena, only a portion of it under specific circumstances.

Thing at rest will stay at rest/thing in motion will stay in motion:
ed924eb725fa37d775e2cc88a3c1deb5.png
Things attract other things in proportion to their mass:
0f36df929ac9d711a8ba8c5658c3bfee.png

There are some laws that are not mathematical in nature, but again... they describe limited experimentally observable phenomena and say nothing about the mechanism behind the phenomena. (An example being: "Cells are the basic unit of life")
Universal gravitation says nothing about what causes gravity only how it happens. It also doesn't explain all of gravitation, which is why General Relativity and quantum mechanics were required.
Some laws in evolution include:
Hardy-Weinburg equilibrium

Mendel's laws of inheritance
Cellular basis for life



Theories unite several laws and describe the mechanism(s) that produces them. The theory of gravity explains where gravity comes from by uniting the laws of classical and quantum mechanics with General Relativity.


The theory of evolution unites several biological laws such as Mendel's laws of inheritance, Hardy-Wienburg and so on and proposes the mechanisms that drive these laws. Those mechanisms include; Natural Selection, Genetic Drift, Differential Mutation and so on.



My first question, where do laws come from? In your view, does an hypothesis go directly to law?
No, a hypothesis is simply an idea you can test. It may lead to a law or a theory but not usually... usually they are just promoted to "working hypothesis" which is a generally accepted idea that is the grounds for further experimentation.
Most hypothesis are used to explore aspects of laws and theories and provide evidence to support or contradict them, but not the whole thing.

Is your view based on mathematics? That may be our disjunct. My understanding is based solely on observational science.
No, my understanding is based on what I learned while getting my biology degree and in discussions on the subject with other natural scientists, chemists and physicists.

These are the generally accepted scientific uses of the terms, regardless of that discipline being mathematical or observational.

wa:do
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
I agree with what you're getting at.

Evolution is obviously true but I believe conscious Intelligences had the big hand in it. By just the processes accepted by modern science, I think the earth would look just like the moon and every other planet we see; just miles and miles of lifeless natural formations.

How do you know that every planet we see has no life? This is literally impossible for you to know, and an assumption with no basis. The other planets in our solar system, maybe. But considering how many planets are likely in our universe, and knowing that we will likely never get to them, you cannot just assume that there is no other life out there.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Theories unite several laws and describe the mechanism(s) that produces them. The theory of gravity explains where gravity comes from by uniting the laws of classical and quantum mechanics with General Relativity.

I have always tended to think (or maybe I just assumed?) that "laws" were generally more an antiquated term than anything else, which is why most of them are wrong but still serve for most practical purposes, so long as they are rather specific. Where we used to have 'laws" we tend to have models, equations, sometimes just names. We still refer to laws, of course, but I'm having trouble thinking of an example which is modern. For example, even though Einstein's theory of general relativity (and the curvature of space) showed Newton's Gravitational laws were incorrect, nobody refers to "Einstein's law of curvature" or some such thing. Maybe I'm just blanking here, but can't remember coming across a "X's law of y" which wasn't at the latest around the early 20th century when modern physics was still in its infancy. But I never wondered why. Now I'm curious. This is why math is so much "neater." Theorem, corollary, lemma, proposition, all have nice, crisp, definitions, even if they refer to fuzzy set theory.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
I have always tended to think (or maybe I just assumed?) that "laws" were generally more an antiquated term than anything else, which is why most of them are wrong but still serve for most practical purposes, so long as they are rather specific. Where we used to have 'laws" we tend to have models, equations, sometimes just names. We still refer to laws, of course, but I'm having trouble thinking of an example which is modern. For example, even though Einstein's theory of general relativity (and the curvature of space) showed Newton's Gravitational laws were incorrect, nobody refers to "Einstein's law of curvature" or some such thing. Maybe I'm just blanking here, but can't remember coming across a "X's law of y" which wasn't at the latest around the early 20th century when modern physics was still in its infancy. But I never wondered why. Now I'm curious. This is why math is so much "neater." Theorem, corollary, lemma, proposition, all have nice, crisp, definitions, even if they refer to fuzzy set theory.

Not all laws have "Law" in their titles either. Einstein's field equasions don't have the word "law" in them, yet they are considered a law in the scientific sense. However the Planck-Einstein law does have "law" in it.

Perhaps it's simply a matter of taste.

As for age, there have been several biological laws that have been discovered during the mid to late 20th century. Especially as technology has allowed for better investigation of genetics. In physics and chemistry most of the low hanging fruit has already been picked.

wa:do
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Not all laws have "Law" in their titles either.
That was kind of my point. Back when science was mostly dominated by figuring out how things moved and why (back when all they had was the un-cool name "mechanics" where today we have the way cooler "dynamical systems"), things tended to be called "laws" and were usually either actual laws of motion, or laws describing how something like gravity or mass or whatever was involved in motion. As the sciences became less and less lumped under "philosophy" (or natural philosophy) and became increasingly distinct and increasingly numerous disciplines, we can find less and less borrowing from the language of classical mechanics. Things stopped being called "laws" as this stopped having much in the way of meaning anymore (after all, again most of the "laws" refer to are really just useful approximations, and aren't really "laws" in the classical sense at all). What used to be considered "laws" described rather specific characteristics (or properties, or principles) of mechanics, which were supposed to be at least nearly universally applicable in some sense. What the sciences tend to have now are too complex to create anything which is supposed to be as precise as classical "laws" yet can be generalized to describe observed dynamics in systems of pebbles to systems of planets. The more one can generalize some equation to diverse systems, the more likely it is to be a rough approximation and/or already a classical law.

Einstein's field equasions don't have the word "law" in them, yet they are considered a law in the scientific sense.

But compare the reduction of Einstein's equations into a more compact form to a classical law:

Gab = 8πGTab
where I can certainly "unpack" these into a system of nonlinear partial differential equations for some spacetime metric gab, but the equation itself is a description of spacetime evolution itself. It also has more than one solution, some of which violate rather fundamental "laws" of physics. And finally, it is at the moment rather at odds with quantum mechanics and quantum theory in general.

So instead of a classical law which relates gravity to diverse systems, I have an equation which models spacetime itself, and which is only a first-order system (and thus is really only a description of spacetime evolution if I use it to as a means to supply constraints for what then becomes a second-order problem with given initial conditions). I also have more than a few problems using it in practice locally or generically, and finally it stands in contradiction (with no current method to resolve) to the other single most successful theory of physics (quantum theory).

And within many sciences, there is nothing which even has something with similar (or less) problems but also the specificity and generalizable nature of Einstein's field equations. Meanwhile, we continue to call "laws" those things we know are false.

Is it possible that while other sciences did initially start to imitate the use of language in mechanics (i.e., call things "law") this term is no longer clear, and furthermore no longer possible to use in the way that it was classically?


However the Planck-Einstein law does have "law" in it.

I'm not used to seeing it called a law, but I'm sure you're right that it is. However, once again this is the end of classical physics we're talking about. Einstein's use of Planck's constant contradicted previous experiments with light, and while it explained the photoelectric effect, it did so by saying light is made up of quantifiable (localized) "packets" of light-energy, which is neither true nor is Einstein's equation used anymore.

Perhaps it's simply a matter of taste.

As for age, there have been several biological laws that have been discovered during the mid to late 20th century. Especially as technology has allowed for better investigation of genetics. In physics and chemistry most of the low hanging fruit has already been picked.

Maybe it's taste, or perhaps you hit on something with the "low hanging fruit" being picked, in that perhaps in biology there are more recent and perhaps as yet unknown analogues to classical laws (accurate, specific in some sense but quite generic in another, like Newton's laws of just about everything). I don't know. But again, you've made me curious.
Thank you!
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
How do you know that every planet we see has no life? This is literally impossible for you to know, and an assumption with no basis. The other planets in our solar system, maybe. But considering how many planets are likely in our universe, and knowing that we will likely never get to them, you cannot just assume that there is no other life out there.

I was just refering to those relatively few planets where we can see the surface there doesn't appear lush forests and other forms of life like you would see on the earth from such distance. I am not arguing that there then can then be no life on any planet; that would be rediculous of me. You read too much into my statement.
 
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painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
That was kind of my point. Back when science was mostly dominated by figuring out how things moved and why (back when all they had was the un-cool name "mechanics" where today we have the way cooler "dynamical systems"), things tended to be called "laws" and were usually either actual laws of motion, or laws describing how something like gravity or mass or whatever was involved in motion. As the sciences became less and less lumped under "philosophy" (or natural philosophy) and became increasingly distinct and increasingly numerous disciplines, we can find less and less borrowing from the language of classical mechanics. Things stopped being called "laws" as this stopped having much in the way of meaning anymore (after all, again most of the "laws" refer to are really just useful approximations, and aren't really "laws" in the classical sense at all). What used to be considered "laws" described rather specific characteristics (or properties, or principles) of mechanics, which were supposed to be at least nearly universally applicable in some sense. What the sciences tend to have now are too complex to create anything which is supposed to be as precise as classical "laws" yet can be generalized to describe observed dynamics in systems of pebbles to systems of planets. The more one can generalize some equation to diverse systems, the more likely it is to be a rough approximation and/or already a classical law.

But compare the reduction of Einstein's equations into a more compact form to a classical law:

Gab = 8πGTab
where I can certainly "unpack" these into a system of nonlinear partial differential equations for some spacetime metric gab, but the equation itself is a description of spacetime evolution itself. It also has more than one solution, some of which violate rather fundamental "laws" of physics. And finally, it is at the moment rather at odds with quantum mechanics and quantum theory in general.

So instead of a classical law which relates gravity to diverse systems, I have an equation which models spacetime itself, and which is only a first-order system (and thus is really only a description of spacetime evolution if I use it to as a means to supply constraints for what then becomes a second-order problem with given initial conditions). I also have more than a few problems using it in practice locally or generically, and finally it stands in contradiction (with no current method to resolve) to the other single most successful theory of physics (quantum theory).

And within many sciences, there is nothing which even has something with similar (or less) problems but also the specificity and generalizable nature of Einstein's field equations. Meanwhile, we continue to call "laws" those things we know are false.
Well remember that even the laws we know aren't totally true are still true within the limited context they are supposed to function.

Newton's laws are not accurate at all scales, but they are true for the scale they are used for. And that is a key factor for "laws" they don't and can't really describe the whole system.

Is it possible that while other sciences did initially start to imitate the use of language in mechanics (i.e., call things "law") this term is no longer clear, and furthermore no longer possible to use in the way that it was classically?
I"m sure the use of the term has evolved over time.

I'm not used to seeing it called a law, but I'm sure you're right that it is. However, once again this is the end of classical physics we're talking about. Einstein's use of Planck's constant contradicted previous experiments with light, and while it explained the photoelectric effect, it did so by saying light is made up of quantifiable (localized) "packets" of light-energy, which is neither true nor is Einstein's equation used anymore.
I'll take your word for it... physics isn't my strong suit by any measure. :eek:

Maybe it's taste, or perhaps you hit on something with the "low hanging fruit" being picked, in that perhaps in biology there are more recent and perhaps as yet unknown analogues to classical laws (accurate, specific in some sense but quite generic in another, like Newton's laws of just about everything). I don't know. But again, you've made me curious.
There are some analogues like Mendel's laws of inheritance.

However, biology is almost built on finding contradictions to every possible "law" or assumption.

In that sense I think calling something a "law" today just doesn't feel quite right.

Thank you!
Anytime! :jiggy:

wa:do
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
How and when did replication enter the mix.
Did evolution make replication or did abogenises?

How else could it have arisen?

I agree that replication is an important aspect of life. What is even more fascinating to me is that nothing is really lost or gained with "new" life but rather something that already exists is taken and converted into a copy. Every one of our cells is a blueprint and can be used to make a copy given the right circumstances. It would have come from the natural processes of conversion of the natural elements. The implications of intelligence come to mind since there are elements that feel a need to keep propagating which is truly fascinating.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
I agree that replication is an important aspect of life. What is even more fascinating to me is that nothing is really lost or gained with "new" life but rather something that already exists is taken and converted into a copy. Every one of our cells is a blueprint and can be used to make a copy given the right circumstances. It would have come from the natural processes of conversion of the natural elements. The implications of intelligence come to mind since there are elements that feel a need to keep propagating which is truly fascinating.
Not every one of our cells. Gametes only have half the information necessary and some cells don't have any DNA at all.

Mature Human red blood cells have no DNA and can't be used to copy anything. When blood is drawn for DNA testing it isn't the red blood cells they are after but the white blood cells. :cool:

wa:do
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Not every one of our cells. Gametes only have half the information necessary and some cells don't have any DNA at all.

Mature Human red blood cells have no DNA and can't be used to copy anything. When blood is drawn for DNA testing it isn't the red blood cells they are after but the white blood cells. :cool:

wa:do
Very specific thanks. Was mainly thinking of cells that replicate themselves but many cells have enough to do much more if they have the code for the whole organism.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Very specific thanks. Was mainly thinking of cells that replicate themselves but many cells have enough to do much more if they have the code for the whole organism.
They may have the whole genome, but they can't use it.

A white blood cell can't become a whole organism. Muscle cells can only produce more muscle cells.

wa:do
 
And how in the world can any of this complexity exist at all, ever?
This is a great question and it goes to the heart of why biophysics is so fascinating. It essentially comes from the second law of thermodynamics: overall disorder in the universe always increases. It turns out that when energy is flowing through a system, local order and complexity is one way to achieve greater overall disorder and randomness in the universe, as required by the second law.

This is why anything of any order or complexity can form, not just living things: snowflakes, oil films, soap bubbles (why not random mixing?), tornadoes, planetary systems, spiral galaxies .... all these interesting structures can form spontaneously in Nature because, essentially, they increase the randomness and disorder of their environment as a byproduct. So while it's true that any ordered structure breaks down over time, new ordered structures are also constantly being produced by Nature as it proceeds on its march towards overall disorder.

The same is true of complicated organic molecules, i.e. various combinations of carbon atoms. In fact it seems to be the rule, rather than the exception, that complex molecules spontaneously form whenever you have the ingredients for them to form (such as carbon, water) and, crucially, a source of energy flowing through the system (e.g. sunlight). We just don't usually notice it on Earth because microbes are everywhere and they will eat up any organic molecules that emerge. But microbe-free experiments and spacecraft and asteroids seem to show that complex organic molecules will form, perhaps even in space, if microbes don't get to them first.
 
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idav

Being
Premium Member
They may have the whole genome, but they can't use it.

A white blood cell can't become a whole organism. Muscle cells can only produce more muscle cells.

wa:do

Right but the potential is there. When we were developing as a fetus we did just that, generated from start to finish.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Right but the potential is there. When we were developing as a fetus we did just that, generated from start to finish.
We were developing from very special types of cells... and with the help of our mothers womb. A lot of our growth and development is dependent on the environment of the womb we are in. You need to be exposed to the right hormones at the right times for example if you are going to actually develop from a fertilized egg to a baby. It's not just a question of having the DNA.

That's why you can't just grow a person in a petri dish. Just because a single cell has the DNA needed to make a whole organism that doesn't mean that it could ever do so.

A muscle cell can't simply become a new organism. It's stuck as a muscle cell and will only ever produce more muscle cells (or cancer cells if you're particularly unlucky).

This is part of the problem with cloning endangered or extinct animals using surrogate parents from other species. They may simply not have the right womb environment to direct the growth of the fetus.

wa:do
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
We were developing from very special types of cells... and with the help of our mothers womb. A lot of our growth and development is dependent on the environment of the womb we are in. You need to be exposed to the right hormones at the right times for example if you are going to actually develop from a fertilized egg to a baby. It's not just a question of having the DNA.

That's why you can't just grow a person in a petri dish. Just because a single cell has the DNA needed to make a whole organism that doesn't mean that it could ever do so.

A muscle cell can't simply become a new organism. It's stuck as a muscle cell and will only ever produce more muscle cells (or cancer cells if you're particularly unlucky).

This is part of the problem with cloning endangered or extinct animals using surrogate parents from other species. They may simply not have the right womb environment to direct the growth of the fetus.

wa:do
That is interesting, I was wondering how it is possible in the womb, yet there are animals that regrow limbs. There must be a similar mechanism.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
That is interesting, I was wondering how it is possible in the womb, yet there are animals that regrow limbs. There must be a similar mechanism.
Actually it seems to be a fairly different process. It's a much more limited ability.

wa:do
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Actually it seems to be a fairly different process. It's a much more limited ability.

wa:do

The salamanders have lizards beat as far as limitations. They can regrow limbs, jaws, eyes and hearts. I hear theories that this ability is dormant within us since we had the ability in the womb. I'm sure there would need to be some sort of special environment or chemical triggers.

HowStuffWorks "How can salamanders regrow body parts?"
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
The salamanders have lizards beat as far as limitations. They can regrow limbs, jaws, eyes and hearts. I hear theories that this ability is dormant within us since we had the ability in the womb. I'm sure there would need to be some sort of special environment or chemical triggers.

HowStuffWorks "How can salamanders regrow body parts?"
Actually that ability is coded for by particular genes and the salamanders in question are known for remaining in their larval stage as reproductive adults. I don't know if members of the species that take on the full adult form are able to regenerate like those that remain in the larval adult form do. They certainly don't live as long.

But it makes sense that the larval form would be able to regenerate to a significant degree as they are in a stage that is already capable of significant physical transformation: into the adult form.

wa:do
 
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