Ex Christians

[roberto]

Yeah this thread goes fast hahaa

I'm sorry, and I did find out something interesting about it. There's several instances of suicide in the Bible and anyway I figured I could look at some of those verses and see if the original greek/hebrew word used for kill was related to murder.
Well most of the passages I looked up didn't use the word kill(they just said the person killing themselves died), but when we come to Acts 16 the text says the Philipian Jailer woudl've, "killed himself." Anyway the original greek word for this was anaiero(I think I spelled that right) which means at the root to destroy violently(or to kill/murder) and then I looked up other times this word was used and it ws when the men were planning to murder Paul(in acts 9 I think?)
Now I know this isn't a verse that comes out and says suicide is self-murder, but the text seems to think so, since there's other words that can be used for kill(I had some stuff written down. I did this research a few days ago, but I lost the paper )

How about Samson praying to G_d for the return of his strength so that he could kill himself......?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

But even this has problems. What one person calls murder another calls a justified killing in the name of "God".

I'm sure those fellars from the old American Wild West felt justified killin' them guys that robbed the bank, chased 'em down, took a vote and strung 'em all up by their necks on a tree.

That ain't murder, hoss. Them's a rightful hangin'.

 

[Rakhel]

It sounds..uh...interesting(to say the least) Was this one the Israelites used though? I mean Rabbi Gamliel didn't live around Moses's time?

There are a number of Rabbis who can trace their lineage back that far. Even today, you will find a few who can actually say they are descendant of the Levi tribe. This means that their knowledge and understandings of Torah, and Torah law, is the direct understanding of Moses and Aaron. This knowledge was a direct father to son understanding

After the fall of the second temple, when Rabbinic Judaism came into existence, other Tribes began to see rabbis come up out of their clan. However, their understanding of Torah and Torah law, while may not have been father to son knowledge, was teacher to student. Or Levite to Danite, Levite to Benjaminite, or Levite to....
So, while Gamliel was not around during the time of Moses(he's time period is from 1400s C.E.), his knowledge, or understanding, is.
However, do keep in mind, Gamliel is but one Rabbi among hundreds, and, much like our resident Levite, human and prone to mistakes and, on the rarest of occasions, drunken stupidity.

BTW, Rakhel is a female name. Hebrew from Rachel.

 

[waitasec]

Yes I redid what I pisted and said it's not a sure-proof way. And again God woudln't have allowed an inoccent girl to die.


No he wasn't. Nowhere does the Bible say he was.

why do you mention the singular he...
this law was made under the assumption that "if" this were to happen "this" is how gods people are to deal with it. there was no "he".

so again, this law was made to justify the stoning of a girl who didn't bleed...or had a particular smell on her breath.

 

[waitasec]

Hahaha and you like thinking the Bible is fallibe and that God is as well.

would agree that mankind is fallible?

 

[Rakhel]

One fact to note. I severely doubt they had wine barrels when Moses wrote those laws.

 

[waitasec]

I'm sorry I should've been more specific, his will(in the entire context of the passage) was for a girl who had been having promiscuous relationships to be killed.)

so if a girl who was a virgin that didn't bleed would prove her innocence in what way?

As I've said many times I don't know what it was or why it wasn't mentioned. When I get to heaven I'll ask God for you okay...

no, it's not ok. at least for me it isn't. i don't particularly have a high regard for blind faith.

Yes.

yes what? how do you know?

do you think mankind is fallible?
do you think god thinks mankind is fallible...?
or do you think god thinks man can suss out if a girl was indeed a virgin
after the fact of having sex for the 1st time, not bleeding and then proving to the elders that she was in fact a virgin...in which case we today can't even determine if a girl was a virgin or not after having sex for the 1st time before having sex for the 1st time.

I've said countles times that I can't prove there was another method and I'm assuming that there was something God did for girls who didn't bleed the first time. Notice though that I admit I'm just assuming. I'm not saying it's a fact another method was used.

i wonder why that was never mentioned...if god knows there are times girls do not bleed for the 1st time they have sex, god would be looking out for those who will be taken advantage of using this very system he set up. yet nothing in his infallible word says anything about that possibility.
you still think the bible is infallible?

 

[waitasec]

I think there's something he did for girl's who didn't bleed the first time. Again I don't know why God didn't mention it( I'm not going torecieve some spiritual revelation on this, so you don't need to keep asking me the same question when I've said I don't know)

No, but you can think whatever you want.

why are you so determined to believe blindly?

 

[waitasec]

What idea am I having a relationship with? God isn't an idea. There are people who have ideas about God though.

any book that claims god is this or that with out any empirical evidence to back it up those ideas is a book of ideas about god.

 

[waitasec]

I'm not talking about a "better method" I'm talking about a possible method that was used on girl's who didn't bleed the first time. Maybe this rarely happened or all the girls did bleed the first time(again I can't be sure, I'm only speculating) However I do know that he wouldn't have allowed an inoccent girl to die

yes he would.

if you, and i'm only speculating here, believe the flood story is literally true...many innocent children died in that flood.
and lets not forget about the little boys that were to be slaughtered
numbers 31:17,18
17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
god had something against non virgins and he seemed to prefer virgins, don't you find that sort of odd...especially if god is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow?
in this case he had something against baby boys too...
where they innocent of any wrong doing other than being a midianite? isn't that promoting racism and genocide for the purpose of eliminating a future conflict for committing this act in the 1st place? or was god concerned about the innocent midianite children?
i don't think so. i also think since god justifies this sort of thing, anything can be justified....flying into buildings is justified. what an astonishing god you believe in...

 

[waitasec]

Interesting, where do you get this from?

i thought you believed blindly?
are you applying a double standard here?

 

[waitasec]

Waitasec, you don't know God had a fallible understanding of a women's anatomy. He's the one who created women you know, logically that would mean he knows EVERYTHING about them, and therefore he would've understood that some might not bleed on their first time, which would mean something would've been done for those girls and the inoccent wouldn't have died.

where does this come from? it's not in the book you claim is infallible. the fact that the method is not included in this book proves it is fallible.

You can keep arguing about this, "fallible method" you've created, but you can't honestly say it was fallible since you don't know if any women were unjustly killed, which they weren't.

i didn't move the goal posts, you did. you brought up the other method. a method that isn't even mentioned in this fallible book you so desperately want to believe isn't.. .

 

[waitasec]

Suspected probably, but God wouldn't have allowed you to be unjustly killed.

yes he would

 

[waitasec]

Really Alceste, I've said countless times that I wouldn't kill anyone who's inoccent. Why do you keep insisting I would. It's a false statement.

you would stand on the sidelines cheering those who would enforce gods rules onto those who do not adhere to your gods rules, wouldn't you?

 

[waitasec]

So subjective morality does not exist?

where did i say that?
i said subjective morals cannot be compared to empirical evidence.
(one wonders if this is how you read the bible...just by skimming through and picking what seems to work for your version of "right")

Do you believe there is such thing as right and wrong?

of course i do...in fact i am almost insulted by that question, but i don't expect you to understand that.
what i consider to be right doesn't necessarily mean you would consider the same...and i don't expect it to mean the same for you.
question is, why would you expect your version of right to be applied to my set of morals? are you better than me...do you have a higher sense of morals than i?
another thing i wonder about is, are you not supposed to treat others the way you like to be treated? i think that is as close to a universal code as any...and btw, that code is not
exclusive to your religion :sorry1:

You are talking specifics. If you want an absolute moral code, "you shall not murder" is a good one that covers some of those.

in my book, if one has had a hand in the suicide of an insecure teenager who was devastated by comparing their right, their truth, to your version of right, your truth, which is being perpetuated by a need to control others (something your lord didn't stipulate) they have murdered.

 

[jasonwill2]

Vadar girl im still waiting for you to find those verses on suicide being condemned and it being called self-murder in teh bible. its been days now

That's a way WE know of, Of course God knows that(since he created the human body) and I don't know how the people would've known for sure, but I do know that God wouldn't have allowed an inoccent girl to die.

Why not? he allows innocent people to die and get inprisioned all the time

 

[Alceste]

Again you can't really, "look at the test." You weren't there and didn't see how it worked.

So the Bible is wrong. Is that what you're saying?

 

[Alceste]

I'm not talking about a "better method" I'm talking about a possible method that was used on girl's who didn't bleed the first time. Maybe this rarely happened or all the girls did bleed the first time(again I can't be sure, I'm only speculating) However I do know that he wouldn't have allowed an inoccent girl to die

In this thread alone there are two women who didn't bleed their first time. These were God's instructions to human beings, according to you. God wasn't carrying these punishments out himself, he instructed the Israelites to do it. In your religion, humans are fallible, right?

I think it's really interesting how you can claim the Bible is the perfect basis for morality and also claim it's incomplete, misleading or incorrect when it openly advocates evil. Even if you insist on deluding yourself that a perfect virginity test exists, in your heart, you must know it's wrong to murder girls who fail to pass it.

 

[Alceste]

They like to ask the same questions over and over, and I keep answering them haha.

You keep evading them, you mean. Ha ha.

 

[Alceste]

Suspected probably, but God wouldn't have allowed you to be unjustly killed.

Then why create a law requiring that we be killed if or parents fail to produce a bloody sheet from the wedding night? Surely if He didn't want innocent women killed he would have given his COMPLETE instructions on determining guilt or innocence, or better yet, not tell the Israelites to murder women accused of sexual impurity in the first place.