Exactly What Convinced You?

[Indagator]

Materialistic-Atheism had to many contradictions and holes in it. Talking for the most part about the materialistic part though.

"Spiritual" Atheism i find absolutely idiotic, there is nothing more to say here.

Religions seems to me like outdated theories, where you have to take too much on faith instead of knowledge.

So i went with Agnostic.

 

[Windwalker]

"Spiritual" Atheism i find absolutely idiotic, there is nothing more to say here.

There's actually quite a lot more to say here with a comment like that. Why is it idiot to you? It's not to me, or quite a lot spiritual atheists.

Religions seems to me like outdated theories, where you have to take too much on faith instead of knowledge.

I'd say Buddhism actually excels in theories of the mind, more than western psychology in many regards. Have you tried meditation? Are you familiar with Buddhism at all?

 

[Indagator]

There's actually quite a lot more to say here with a comment like that. Why is it idiot to you? It's not to me, or quite a lot spiritual atheists.

They should try to use arguments that "convinced" them to be atheist on their spiritual beliefs.

I'd say Buddhism actually excels in theories of the mind, more than western psychology in many regards. Have you tried meditation? Are you familiar with Buddhism at all?

I am familiar with Buddhism yes.

You got your meditation and stoic philosophy (more or less of course) where faith is not that necessary, but then you got your Karma and Rebirth where faith comes in.

I do agree however that Buddhism is better than Western Psychology in many ways.

Oh almost forgot. Buddhism also got this funny culture aspect to it. I mean dude... you dont have to dress up like Japanese person and drink tea to be a buddhist, lol
Of course local culture penetrated pretty much all buddhist traditions/world views.

 

[Windwalker]

They should try to use arguments that "convinced" them to be atheist on their spiritual beliefs.

I think there may be a confusion on your part with what spirituality entails. I view spirituality not as beliefs but as experience. To stand under the night sky and feel the whole of existence breathe through you is a spiritual experience. In fact they usually happen when you don't try to inject thoughts and beliefs into them, but rather set all that aside and let it simply move through you. Any human being can have such spiritual experiences, regardless of how they believe about God or not. So yes, you can and do have plenty of spiritual atheists, without it being some sort of contradiction of belief.

I am familiar with Buddhism yes.

You got your meditation and stoic philosophy (more or less of course) where faith is not that necessary, but then you got your Karma and Rebirth where faith comes in.

I think again there is a confusion of what the word faith means. Faith is itself different than beliefs. Faith at the religious level operates before beliefs. A strong faith actually allows beliefs to change more easily than a weak faith does. Buddhism does have faith, but it's not the same as beliefs in reincarnation. That faith is that there is a Buddha nature of which they can realize in themselves as they follow the dharma and practice meditation.

This sort of faith, religious faith, is the precursor to, again, experience. Once that experience is realized that faith becomes replaced by first hand knowledge. Previously that sort of faith is really more a sense, a drawing from within towards some yet unrealized reality. Beliefs are wholly secondary to that, and are exchangeable in support of that faith as well.

Oh almost forgot. Buddhism also got this funny culture aspect to it. I mean dude... you dont have to dress up like Japanese person and drink tea to be a buddhist, lol

Well, yes. Of course not. If someone wants to be a monk or a nun, then of course there are certain orders which have various traditional attire associated with them. But a lay person doesn't need to shave their heads and wear orange robes, anymore than a Christian doesn't need to wear a nun's habit.

Of course local culture penetrated pretty much all buddhist traditions/world views.

All religions take on the flavors of their local cultures to some extent. Religions evolve, even if many believe they should never change. I'd call that the "fundamentalist fallacy", imagining they should or even can remain fixed and static.

 

[Indagator]

I think there may be a confusion on your part with what spirituality entails. I view spirituality not as beliefs but as experience. To stand under the night sky and feel the whole of existence breathe through you is a spiritual experience. In fact they usually happen when you don't try to inject thoughts and beliefs into them, but rather set all that aside and let it simply move through you. Any human being can have such spiritual experiences, regardless of how they believe about God or not. So yes, you can and do have plenty of spiritual atheists, without it being some sort of contradiction of belief.

No confusion on my part. It seems you just using your own definition.

I think again there is a confusion of what the word faith means. Faith is itself different than beliefs. Faith at the religious level operates before beliefs. A strong faith actually allows beliefs to change more easily than a weak faith does. Buddhism does have faith, but it's not the same as beliefs in reincarnation. That faith is that there is a Buddha nature of which they can realize in themselves as they follow the dharma and practice meditation.

This sort of faith, religious faith, is the precursor to, again, experience. Once that experience is realized that faith becomes replaced by first hand knowledge. Previously that sort of faith is really more a sense, a drawing from within towards some yet unrealized reality. Beliefs are wholly secondary to that, and are exchangeable in support of that faith as well.

was that a refutation of my point or something else? because i am not sure

I am not really disagreeing with you here but what i said about religions being based on faith still stands. Whether or not your faith becomes knowledge or not is a different topic.

 

[Sundance]

Exactly what was it that convinced you your religion is worth following and the other religions were not?.

Good question, Skwim!

As a person who identifies with two religions (Shinto and Buddhism), I'll need a bit of time to get my thoughts out coherently.

I'll start by saying that in terms of religion (or anything, really), I've come to understand that
there exists an inherent duality between the heart and the mind. Coming from that, my experiences with religion had always involved my mind being in “one” place (I'll explain the quotation marks later), and my heart in another. I felt torn and conflicted, without any way to bring them to harmonious accord.


I had explored various religions from when I was in sixth grade. I enjoyed learning about them all. This fruitfully engaged my sense of curiosity. It fed my mind. The thing is with all of that came the confusion and the endless back and forth between the religions that had crippled my spiritual growth until very recently: Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Paganism, The Bahá’í Faith, New Age, this, that.... (I know that some of you on RF can bear me witness here!)

Fast forward for sixth grade, I became more acquainted with Japanese culture, which entailed my eager embracing of all of its aspects – language, the arts, food, pop culture, history, the whole nine. In my study of Japan (as well as due to the re-embracing of such worldviews as animism and polytheism), I got reacquainted with the indigenous religion called Shinto, first being introduced to it way back then. The thing is it spoke deeply to my heart (and still does), but I still had the lack of focus in the mind to begin to conquer. The mind’s endless flipping.


As for Buddhism, I knew of it previously (from the often-referenced World Cultures class in sixth grade) and learned about it, but never seriously engaged with it. I had heard of a Buddhist text called The Dhammapada. I purchased an English translation long ago, but only very recently am I beginning to read it with seriousness. Anyway, I had been flipping through the pages one day, and I came across a chapter named Mind. I was drawn to it because I thought,

“Maybe this could be the cure for my spiritual illness.”

I read the chapter, becoming convinced that Buddhism did, indeed, provide that cure. The cure, as alluded to in the chapter, was meditation. Seeking to rein in my mind – cultivating singularity thereof – I had discovered a form of meditation called Mindfulness meditation, which has its origins in Buddhism. My discovery of and serious engagement with MM, as well as a deep contemplation of the central or distinctive teachings of the religion in which it's based led me to the intellectual embrace of Buddhism. (The fundamentals of Buddhism, I find, are impossible to disagree with.)

To use the analogy of MM, Buddhism is becoming the breath upon which I focus my life. Other religions (except Shinto) are the thoughts which pass, the flutters of the mind which come and go, having no importance. Though I acknowledge them, they are not meaningful, only serving to divert my “dwelling” away from the breath towards the thoughts of the mind that are but mere distraction.

What I then noticed had existed, to bring my answer full circle, was the duality of heart and mind. Shinto utterly enamors my heart and Buddhism captures my mind.

“Is there a way to bring the two together?”, I ask, not seeking to relinquish either of the two.

Looking to Japan for my answer, I was elated upon my discovery that the mixing of Shinto and Buddhism does have a precedence that goes back centuries (even becoming imperial policy), and it continues today. There is even a name for this mixture – “shinbutsu shugo”, meaning “the blending of kami (Shinto) and buddhas (Buddhism)”.

I thusly decided to wholly dedicate my life to this path, having discovered the reality of the particular mixture, eradicating the conflict between my heart and my mind.

So, to me, it's both a heart and mind thing that led me to the path I walk, but I suppose I'm not unique in this regard. Shinto and Buddhism are worth following. It's not that other religions aren't valuable. It's simply a matter of asking myself, “What enthralls my heart? What deeply engages my mind?”

That's all.

 

[Windwalker]

No confusion on my part. It seems you just using your own definition.

If I am just making up my own definition of what spirituality means as a whole, then it seems you are still going to be stuck with assuming atheists who consider themselves spiritual are being idiotic. It seems to me they share my understanding of the word, and the one who is in error is yourself. That's why I pointed this out to you, so you can stop assuming others are idiotic, when they in fact are not.

You might be better served in trying to understand the very many nuanced ways words are used, rather than assuming words like spirituality means believing in casper the friendly ghost, or some other narrow, or childish notion.



was that a refutation of my point or something else? because i am not sure

I am not really disagreeing with you here but what i said about religions being based on faith still stands. Whether or not your faith becomes knowledge or not is a different topic.[/QUOTE]

 

[Indagator]

If I am just making up my own definition of what spirituality means as a whole, then it seems you are still going to be stuck with assuming atheists who consider themselves spiritual are being idiotic. It seems to me they share my understanding of the word, and the one who is in error is yourself. That's why I pointed this out to you, so you can stop assuming others are idiotic, when they in fact are not.

You might be better served in trying to understand the very many nuanced ways words are used, rather than assuming words like spirituality means believing in casper the friendly ghost, or some other narrow, or childish notion.

Wouldn't you say that spirituality opens a strong possibility for God? I just find physicalism more compatible with Atheism.

 

[Windwalker]

Wouldn't you say that spirituality opens a strong possibility for God? I just find physicalism more compatible with Atheism.

Well, that's an interesting question with a lot of complex answers! The answer is both yes, and no. If someone who had left the religion of their childhood with all its beliefs, choosing instead an atheistic view that rejects say, the anthropomorphic images of a God that sounds like some "guy in the sky" sort of thing, that when they experience something that they historically associated with "God", that it can cause a certain conflict, like feeling like a hypocrite, "I say I don't believe God exists, yet, I feel this profound connection to life that moves me beyond words." The heart says 'this is real', and the head say, but Noah's Ark is a myth!

Ultimately for that person they can try to deny these feelings, to dismiss them as a weak holdover from religion, or they can take a deep look at these very human experiences and come to understand that religion does NOT own this stuff! Spiritual experiences are common in all cultures, whether religious or not. They can try to evolve their understanding of what "God" is outside the context of a theology laden religious lockbox. They don't go back to imagining magical stories are literal scientific facts, but rather move into a far more poetic or metaphoric appreciation of religious symbolism like that, understanding human spirituality first, symbolism second.

Now for other's who never made that association between belief in God with human spiritual experience, they simply just don't make that connection and it's no problem for them.

Here's a great quote I think captures well what a spiritual person who is also non-believer in the theistic deity might express this:

“The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. He to whom the emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand wrapped in awe, is as good as dead —his eyes are closed. The insight into the mystery of life, coupled though it be with fear, has also given rise to religion. To know what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty, which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their most primitive forms—this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness.”

- Albert Einstein, Living Philosophies​

That is spirituality, right there. This goes beyond some flat reductionist, materialistic understanding into embracing the Mystery. It touches us beyond the mind into the unfathomable depths of our very own being.

 

[Bird123]

I was raised Christian. I believed it with my whole heart.

But it was my heart that got me in trouble. I couldn't reconcile the idea of a religion meant to express God's love for us, with the fundamental fact that it is an unfair system. Simply, those born in a Christian family or culture have a greater chance at salvation than those who are not. Why should something as important as salvation boil down in large part to luck?

This conflict grew in my mind. No Christian apologetics seemed to resolve the issue.

This lead me to the view that Christianity was also unreasonable. It just doesn't make sense for a benevolent god to expect perfection from imperfect creation. It makes no sense to make a sinful nature hereditary. It makes no sense that the punishment is non-negotiable (god chose these rules! Nobody forced him.) It makes no sense that the solution is not in teaching humans how to be better but to have them rely on the death of god's son. Where is the growth, the learning, in that?

So I rejected Christianity, but maintained my belief in a loving, reasonable God, who would honor my attempts at trying to be a good person.

But then, another argument came to me. The whole reason I believed in this god was because Christianity said he existed. If Christianity obviously got so much else wrong, why should I suppose they got this one part right?

I did some desultory searching, but couldn't find God anywhere. I gave up belief in his existence too.

This process broke my capacity for faith. There are aspects of other religions I find appealing, but I always come back to the idea that there's no reason to believe that what they say is true. Perhaps one day I'll give up on truth, and just go for a religion I want to be true.

For now, I am ok with my loose collection of beliefs on morality and philosophy. I think they make sense and I think they point me in the right direction of being a good person, which ultimately, is the most important thing.

Our paths in life were lots alike. My search however was much more far reaching simply because I was going to Discover the Real Truth no matter what.

I have found no religion that really understands God at all, though there are pieces in most all holy books.

You really have nothing to worry about. As I see it, Believing has never ever been important to God. The answer is: Be who you must. It's a part of the plan.

Just like all the physics add up completely, so does everything about God. As I see it. It all stares us in the face waiting to be Discovered just like all the science stares us all in the face. How long did mankind watch birds fly before they figured out how? It was so easy or was it? Discovery takes work.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Be who you must. It's a part of the plan.

Dan Fogelberg?

...await your arrival
with simple survival
and one day we'll all understand...

 

[pearl]

Exactly what was it that convinced you your religion is worth following and the other religions were not?

Its not that many other religions are not worth following, or that they are not of value. All are a response to faith, religion is the chosen expression of that faith.

 

[Bird123]

Dan Fogelberg?

...await your arrival
with simple survival
and one day we'll all understand...

I'm afraid I'm not up on my Dan Fogelberg. Life is much more than simple survival. Yes, I know you already knew that. Then again, songs must rhyme. They must find the right word or the song sounds funny. OK, Close.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I'm afraid I'm not up on my Dan Fogelberg. Life is much more than simple survival. Yes, I know you already knew that. Then again, songs must rhyme. They must find the right word or the song sounds funny. OK, Close.

Ha! Thought you were quoting the song...the odds of randomly generating

Be who you must. It's a part of the plan.

must be up there close to, well, one in a hundred?

Well, 'nuf said!

 

[Patti]

I think that psychology offers a very valid lifestyle choice alternative to the established religious order. You can reach for self-actualization and learn about individual responsibility for your choices. The Buddah once said, "to understand it all is to forgive it all." Psychology provides one with insight into human behavior and has practical answers for changing things in your life. Meditat

 

[Patti]

Meditaion, deepening awareness, insight and wisdom...it's all there.