Excommunication. leaving

[Vinayaka]

This question was inspired by the 'ex' thread started earlier today.

For those who've never heard of it, excommunication is basically being kicked out of a church, a sect, or a religion, and historically could be rather cruel, to put it mildly. (Punishable by death) These days it can be requested by people choosing to leave, and severance methods vary a lot.

So I'm curious on how all the different religions or churches deal with this, as it stands today.

In Hinduism, you can leave on your own, merely by stopping practicing, or converting to another faith. We have no central authority to decide. However, each individual organisation may have a method for it, to acknowledge it. In my particular small organisation its simple. We have an annual re-dedication form. If you don't fill it in within 4 months of the time you're supposed to (Guru Purnima) you're just automatically considered a non-member.

In the case of the Arya Samaj group, who re-convert, or de-convert, whichever way you want to look at it, they consider you always Hindu if born one, so take you back in an official way.

Can you leave Islam? Can you leave Judaism?

Thanks in advance for any responses.

 

[bobhikes]

Currently in the Catholic church there is no way to officially leave once baptised. Excommunication only bars you from recieving the eucharist. Even in the past with excommunication you were not allow to participate in much more church activities but you were never non-catholic.

 

[Nyingjé Tso]

Currently in the Catholic church there is no way to officially leave once baptised. Excommunication only bars you from recieving the eucharist. Even in the past with excommunication you were not allow to participate in much more church activities but you were never non-catholic.

I didn't had the same experience with it... I was baptised out of tradition as a baby, it's common here. But I was never accepted in the catholic church, because I refused to receive the religious teachings and participate in the ceremonies. My parents put me in catechism and wanted me to do communion and all these stuff, but I stayed in catechism only half a day. They never wanted to see me again after I told them I didn't believed in the christian concept of god, that I didn't care about Jesus much, and that I didn't wanted to convert into the catholic faith. Nobody bothered to call me christian ever after that. There is my name nowhere in any list of catholic church or organisation, I don't exist for them.

A friend of mine is baptised also, but was excommunicated formally. She never believed in the christian god and repeatitevely asked to leave the church. Nobody wanted to give her the right. So, she disturbed the mass and broke some things. Suddenly catholic authorities excommunicated her, and now it's even forbidden for her to enter the churches around her place

 

[Tarheeler]

Can you leave Judaism?

You can choose to leave the Jewish community, and you can choose to follow another religion (or none at all), but Jewish law says that once you are Jewish, whether by birth or conversion, you are always (halachically) Jewish.

There is a form of rabbinic censure that can be seen as being akin to excommunication, but, while the person is cut off from the community, they are still Jewish.



You might be a heritic, an apostate, and a "bad" Jew, but you're still Jewish.

 

[bobhikes]

I didn't had the same experience with it... I was baptised out of tradition as a baby, it's common here. But I was never accepted in the catholic church, because I refused to receive the religious teachings and participate in the ceremonies. My parents put me in catechism and wanted me to do communion and all these stuff, but I stayed in catechism only half a day. They never wanted to see me again after I told them I didn't believed in the christian concept of god, that I didn't care about Jesus much, and that I didn't wanted to convert into the catholic faith. Nobody bothered to call me christian ever after that. There is my name nowhere in any list of catholic church or organisation, I don't exist for them.

A friend of mine is baptised also, but was excommunicated formally. She never believed in the christian god and repeatitevely asked to leave the church. Nobody wanted to give her the right. So, she disturbed the mass and broke some things. Suddenly catholic authorities excommunicated her, and now it's even forbidden for her to enter the churches around her place

From the vatican web site.

Any Catholic who has been excommunicated still remains a Catholic and is bound by obligations such as attending Masses but they are baned from receiving the Eucharist. Excommunicated members cannot take an active part in the liturgy in a ministerial position. Excommunication can happen in two ways. First, it can be incurred at the very instant when the member commits the offense, or second it can be imposed by a legitimate superior afterwards.

Excommunication in the Roman Catholic Church - Vatican Articles

 

[Nyingjé Tso]

From the vatican web site.

Any Catholic who has been excommunicated still remains a Catholic and is bound by obligations such as attending Masses but they are baned from receiving the Eucharist. Excommunicated members cannot take an active part in the liturgy in a ministerial position. Excommunication can happen in two ways. First, it can be incurred at the very instant when the member commits the offense, or second it can be imposed by a legitimate superior afterwards.

Excommunication in the Roman Catholic Church - Vatican Articles

I just think it's different from country to country It's taken more seriously and religiously in the US, while here it's more by "tradition" and not by belief.
People here that are excommunicated or just publicly rejected catholocism are no longer considered catholics at all, even by the priests and higher church members of the region.

 

[Quintessence]

The term excommunication really only applies to specific branches of Christianity and not to any of the other world religions; the idea of it is pretty foreign to most other religions. It's an official banishment from the central authority of the religion, and many religions lack such central authority to be doing any banishing. It was a very serious form of severance, and I'd be careful about comparing it to leaving a religious tradition in non-Christian religions. A word other than "excommunication" would be much more appropriate when describing those, so I am not going to use that word from here forward.

In contemporary Paganism, the only way to be formally kicked out of something by a governing authority is if you joined a group that has the needed framework. I suspect that traditional Wiccan (BTW) covens in particular may have formal ousting procedures, because their traditions are oathbound. Those who violate their oaths would be kicked out and barred from that tradition. Relatively few Neopagan groups are that formalized or cloak-and-dagger, though, as many are simply open circles/groves or discussion groups. Most importantly, recent survey data indicates a solid majority of Neopagans are solitary practitioners in prime, making community acceptance a moot issue in many respects.

 

[Vinayaka]

A word other than "excommunication" would be much more appropriate when describing those, so I am not going to use that word from here forward.

I agree. So just 'leaving', no longer practicing, etc. are all fine by me. There is also apostasy, which I think also may be uniquely Abrahamic. Not sure, though.

Your posts definitely make me more respectful of your tradition.

 

[LuisDantas]

I believe (perhaps wrongly) that Islamic communities have a precept that everyone is born muslim and sort of "forgets" that out of cultural conditioning.

If I am not mistaken, they even name converts as actually "reconverts" for that very reason.

I assume that means it is possible to leave Islam again, but I wish I truly knew. It may easily be otherwise.

 

[Aupmanyav]

In Hinduism, you can leave on your own, merely by stopping practicing, or converting to another faith. We have no central authority to decide.

Can you leave Islam?

"2171. Narrated 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "The blood of a Muslim, who confesses that Lâ ilâha ill-Allâh (there is no god but Allâh), cannot be shed except in three cases: 1. Life for life (in cases of intentional murders without right i.e., in Al-Qis̩âs̩ – Law of Equality in punishment); 2. A married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse; and 3. The one who turns renegade from Islâm (apostate) and leaves the group of Muslims. [9:17-O.B]"
— Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:83:17 see also Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:52:260, Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:84:57

Excommunication (jat bahar - (to be thrown) out of caste) out occurred in castes (at least in Rajasthan) if a person would do something which is considered very bad. And it would be complete separation. Sometimes even those out side the caste or religion also will boycott the person. Generally the person was forced to leave the village/city, or seek the forgiveness of the caste elders and make amends as they suggest. The act (excommunication) did not affect his being a Hindu, but some times such a person may have adopted another religion for social support.

 

[Vinayaka]

Excommunication (jat bahar - (to be thrown) out of caste) out occurred in castes (at least in Rajasthan) if a person would do something which is considered very bad. And it would be complete separation. Sometimes even those out side the caste or religion also will boycott the person. Generally the person was forced to leave the village/city, or seek the forgiveness of the caste elders and make amends as they suggest. The act (excommunication) did not affect his being a Hindu, but some times such a person may have adopted another religion for social support.

I wasn't really thinking about it at this more community level. All social groups have their ways of banishment. Society has jails for people who can't conform to the rules of society. That's also a form of 'being kicked out'. But it really wasn't what I was askig. If you want to start a different discussion on this, (more generalised 'life' sense) go right ahead.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I believe (perhaps wrongly) that Islamic communities have a precept that everyone is born muslim and sort of "forgets" that out of cultural conditioning.

If I am not mistaken, they even name converts as actually "reconverts" for that very reason.

I assume that means it is possible to leave Islam again, but I wish I truly knew. It may easily be otherwise.

Yeah, Muslims believe that everyone was originally Muslim and so they call converts "reverts".

 

[Aupmanyav]

I wasn't really thinking about it at this more community level.

Perhaps you were thinking about ex-communication from a sect. Since I do not belong to any sect, I would not know about it. I misunderstood.

 

[roger1440]

You can choose to leave the Jewish community, and you can choose to follow another religion (or none at all), but Jewish law says that once you are Jewish, whether by birth or conversion, you are always (halachically) Jewish.

There is a form of rabbinic censure that can be seen as being akin to excommunication, but, while the person is cut off from the community, they are still Jewish.



You might be a heritic, an apostate, and a "bad" Jew, but you're still Jewish.

Correct me if I’m wrong. Judaism is a tribal religion. If one is born of the Jewish tribe, they get a free membership card. What constitutes being born of the Jewish tribe is being born of a Jewish mother. Kind of like being born in the United States. If someone is born within the borders of the United States he/she is automatically an American citizen, regardless if he or she believes in the American way of life. If I’m right, technically a Jew can be an atheist.

 

[HexBomb]

Amish communities, like the ones near where I live have shunning. It means once an Amish person has taken baptism, their tied to the laws of the ordnung. If they commit a major sin and refuse to repent (usually publicly) they are 'shunned.' This is called Meidung. It can vary in severity from being refused communion to not being allowed to eat with, enter the homes of, or speak to anyone in the ordnung.

 

[misanthropic_clown]

For Mormons, it is possible to be excommunicated for certain things, which undoes all the supposed blessings obtained by and during membership - eg your baptism, temple marriage, family sealings, any priesthood office you held - are all considered null and void. This is done via a formal church discipline process, and typically coupled with an attempt to return the member to good standing via repentance.

For people who want to leave more directly, they can request there names are removed from the records of the church, which has a similar effect. This is what I did.

 

[Vinayaka]

Thanks, everyone, for your responses.

 

[Penumbra]

I just think it's different from country to country It's taken more seriously and religiously in the US, while here it's more by "tradition" and not by belief.
People here that are excommunicated or just publicly rejected catholocism are no longer considered catholics at all, even by the priests and higher church members of the region.

His reference is from the Vatican in Rome, which is the central authority of Roman Catholicism. That's the church's official position on the matter.

Regional differences may not use that language but technically since it's an organized religion with a central authority, that's what the position is.