Explain this logically christians....

[ninerbuff]

A close friend informed me today that his cousin lost his wife and 2 kids to a drunk driver a few days ago.
Now the cousin is being asked to "lean on god" and "faith" to make it through it.
So explain that if it was god's "plan" to take his family away, then why lean on god for support? How does that logically make sense?

 

[PolyHedral]

Stockholm syndrome, maybe?

 

[tarasan]

A close friend informed me today that his cousin lost his wife and 2 kids to a drunk driver a few days ago.
Now the cousin is being asked to "lean on god" and "faith" to make it through it.
So explain that if it was god's "plan" to take his family away, then why lean on god for support? How does that logically make sense?

how does it not?
you havnt said anything thats overly illogical.
set out premises and show how this senario shows that God is neccessarily inconsistant. (which is what being illogical means btw)

this just seems like an emotional thing, i advise your friend to get pastoral care

 

[PolyHedral]

It's illogical because you're asking God for support, but it is (assumed to be) God's plan that caused the death of the family.

 

[tarasan]

It's illogical because you're asking God for support, but it is (assumed to be) God's plan that caused the death of the family.

how is that inconsistant? that isnt illogical at all.

I can lean on someone even if I think they are responsible for my grief.

 

[PolyHedral]

how is that inconsistant? that isnt illogical at all.

I can lean on someone even if I think they are responsible for my grief.

...You can? Why?

 

[tarasan]

...You can? Why?

well is it possible that I could,

I mean maybe I trust them enough to do what is right in the situation, or maybe I forgive them for putting me in the situation.

just two examples.

remember to show that something isnt inconsistant I just have to show a possible senario, it doesnt even have to be likely and yet it still shows that something isnt inconsistant and therefore not illogical.

this is why i wanted premises, because im sure if he thought it out in steps then it would make for a better debate.

 

[javajo]

A close friend informed me today that his cousin lost his wife and 2 kids to a drunk driver a few days ago.
Now the cousin is being asked to "lean on god" and "faith" to make it through it.
So explain that if it was god's "plan" to take his family away, then why lean on god for support? How does that logically make sense?

I will try to explain, in part, my belief and its only my belief. I would not say it was God's "plan", more like fallen man's free will. Did God know the man would choose to drink and drive and that they would be killed? Yes. Could he have intervened, sure. But he does not intervene every time someone disobeys, etc. or there would be no accidents. Truth is, we live in a fallen sinful world where we see the results and consequences of sin which can be terrible and even end in the tragic death of innocent loved ones. We see how bad sin is in cases like this. It shows sin is real and needs to be dealt with in each of our own lives. Have we trusted Christ to pay for our sins and do we strive not to sin? Do we not know the consequences of sin is not only physical death but a spiritual death and a final second death??? Its spiritual darkness resulting in tragic physical reality.

Do we turn from God who is our source of comfort and peace, who is love and who demonstrated that love in the person of Jesus Christ, who never reviled anyone when reviled against and who taught us to love our enemies and to render not evil for evil but rather good for evil? No, we trust in God more at these times. We also believe all things will be restored, that God is just and although we do not understand clearly in this earthly life, we know we will understand soon enough and we will be reunited with our loved ones who have passed away and be with them FOREVER. And there will be no more death or pain or sorrow for those who have trusted God, and no more drunk drivers.

 

[dallas1125]

Depends on how you view if god was responsible for their deaths.

 

[PolyHedral]

But he does not intervene every time someone disobeys, etc. or there would be no accidents.

...You say this as though it's a bad thing. Wouldn't it be an improvement ifthere were no accidents?

 

[javajo]

...You say this as though it's a bad thing. Wouldn't it be an improvement ifthere were no accidents?

I just say that as a simple fact that God does not intervene every time there is an accident, because we do have accidents. But I am saying something deeper. Sin brought about death, spiritual death, physical death and a final 2nd death. Just as the Law (10 commandments) actually shows sin for just what it is, as Paul wrote:

7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

So we see as well the results of sin in this life when we see tragedies such as this drunk driver caused. As we see the results of sin in the law and in the world so we know how exceedingly bad sin is, and how real. Just as God allows free will so he allows it to play out to its sometimes tragic end, so we see that it is wrong and recognize we are sinners.

You say it would be better without accidents and I agree, and one day there will be no more accidents or death. But we must first deal with sin and to do that we must see it first hand and acknowledge it in the world and in us so that God can deliver us from its power. That's my belief.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

...You say this as though it's a bad thing. Wouldn't it be an improvement ifthere were no accidents?

Depends who's in them.

 

[Kathryn]

That's a very sad situation -from an earthly perspective.

But - currently the death rate for humans is 100 percent.

I think we attach a lot of importance on the LENGTH of a person's life - more than it's probably important in the total scheme of things.

Of course we miss our loved ones when they die before us, but that's from OUR perspective, not the perspective of the person who goes before us. And we have no way of knowing their perspective.

I have lived through enough tragedy in my own life to know and believe this - that all things work together for good, for those who are called according to God's purpose (Romans 8:28). I've lived long enough to see heartbreak turn around and see the bigger picture - and I haven't yet even seen the WHOLE picture!

 

[waitasec]

That's a very sad situation -from an earthly perspective.

it's the only perspective we have really

I think we attach a lot of importance on the LENGTH of a person's life - more than it's probably important in the total scheme of things.

this is a good topic for another thread

Of course we miss our loved ones when they die before us, but that's from OUR perspective, not the perspective of the person who goes before us. And we have no way of knowing their perspective.

again we can only go by what we know...we will miss them terribly.

I have lived through enough tragedy in my own life to know and believe this - that all things work together for good, for those who are called according to God's purpose (Romans 8:28). I've lived long enough to see heartbreak turn around and see the bigger picture - and I haven't yet even seen the WHOLE picture!

i was with you up until that point.
imo, that is not a logical explanation. this is a hard subject because it's easier to deal with your own mortality then it is to deal with the mortality of your loved ones. the hard cold fact is that you will never see them again. but instead of focusing on the loss focus on what you gained by knowing them.
that is why living for the here and now is of utmost importance, not for the unknown unforeseeable future that is based on assumptions really.
i think faith diminishes the importance of the here and now because one gets too caught up in their obedience to god rather then soaking up the warmth our loved ones give us when they are around.

 

[Kathryn]

.

it's the only perspective we have really

For you, perhaps - I don't know. It's not the only perspective I have. I believe that linear time is only one aspect of time and eternity - and a very limited perspective at that. I could be wrong, but you certainly can't prove me wrong - and I can't prove to you that I'm right. So there we have it.

again we can only go by what we know...we will miss them terribly.

Sure - and maybe when we die, someone will miss us too. Human life has a limited time span. That's a REALITY. I am accepting reality. I will and do miss those loved ones who have gone on before me. But I also believe that I will see them again. And I believe that they are in a peaceful, good place. Once again - unprovable, but also unable to be disproven.

this is a hard subject because it's easier to deal with your own mortality then it is to deal with the mortality of your loved ones. the hard cold fact is that you will never see them again.

Sorry, but that's not a hard, cold fact. That's your opinion.

but instead of focusing on the loss focus on what you gained by knowing them.

Well, sure - and that's what I do.

that is why living for the here and now is of utmost importance, not for the unknown unforeseeable future that is based on assumptions really.

Just because I believe in eternal life doesn't mean that I don't also place great importance on the here and now. It doesn't have to be either/or, and for me it's not. Life is a blessing and a responsibility which I take seriously.

i think faith diminishes the importance of the here and now because one gets too caught up in their obedience to god rather then soaking up the warmth our loved ones give us when they are around

Wow, that may be your experience, but it's certainly not been mine. Like I said a minute ago - faith doesn't negate the importance of our earthly lives. My faith just puts my earthly life into perspective to me, and it in no way diminishes the pleasure that I feel when I experience human love. In fact, it enhances it.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

That's a very sad situation -from an earthly perspective.

But - currently the death rate for humans is 100 percent.

I think we attach a lot of importance on the LENGTH of a person's life - more than it's probably important in the total scheme of things.

Of course we miss our loved ones when they die before us, but that's from OUR perspective, not the perspective of the person who goes before us. And we have no way of knowing their perspective.

I have lived through enough tragedy in my own life to know and believe this - that all things work together for good, for those who are called according to God's purpose (Romans 8:28). I've lived long enough to see heartbreak turn around and see the bigger picture - and I haven't yet even seen the WHOLE picture!

When we lose a loved one, why do we suffer? We suffer, because said person(s) was an important part of our life. That's why we loved them. After a person loses a loved one, what is their goal? To overcome their suffering, and move on with their life. How can this be accomplished? Most people would respond by saying that the person should remember the love they had, and all the good times they shared, and that the deceased will always be with them in their heart. But we can avoid the suffering outright. How? Love is attachment to some form. To not love, is to not have attachment. The type of love I am referring to is a particular kind of love, that is attached to forms. When we learn to love indiscriminately, we realize that all humanity is worthy of the love we show to someone close to us. This love is not caused by attachment to the form. This love is generated by the mind as an outflow of right view of reality. This is love for it's own sake.

I realize this might be a harsh way to look at it, because it's hard to think that we can not divorce ourselves from our loved ones in such a way. I know it's been impossible for me to attempt this on my two kids. But, it is a logical way to look at it, and it is the way the Buddha taught. The Buddha said "a man who loves 50 people has 50 woes, a man who loves no one has no woes."

 

[waitasec]

For you, perhaps - I don't know. It's not the only perspective I have. I believe that linear time is only one aspect of time and eternity - and a very limited perspective at that. I could be wrong, but you certainly can't prove me wrong - and I can't prove to you that I'm right. So there we have it.



Sure - and maybe when we die, someone will miss us too. Human life has a limited time span. That's a REALITY. I am accepting reality. I will and do miss those loved ones who have gone on before me. But I also believe that I will see them again. And I believe that they are in a peaceful, good place. Once again - unprovable, but also unable to be disproven.




Sorry, but that's not a hard, cold fact. That's your opinion.



Well, sure - and that's what I do.



Just because I believe in eternal life doesn't mean that I don't also place great importance on the here and now. It doesn't have to be either/or, and for me it's not. Life is a blessing and a responsibility which I take seriously.



Wow, that may be your experience, but it's certainly not been mine. Like I said a minute ago - faith doesn't negate the importance of our earthly lives. My faith just puts my earthly life into perspective to me, and it in no way diminishes the pleasure that I feel when I experience human love. In fact, it enhances it.

in the context of the loss of a loved one you mentioned..

that all things work together for good, for those who are called according to God's purpose (Romans 8:28)

in the OP...

So explain that if it was god's "plan" to take his family away, then why lean on god for support? How does that logically make sense?

this life, the here and now, is all we empirically know of.
your opinion of the hereafter is an opinion just as mine is, i agree, but we are not talking about the hereafter, we are talking about the here and now
see what i mean?

so saying all things work together for good, doesn't really make logical sense because the loss of a loved one isn't good in the here and now.

 

[ninerbuff]

how is that inconsistant? that isnt illogical at all.

I can lean on someone even if I think they are responsible for my grief.

So if a drunk driver killed your family, you could lean on them? What you lean on them for....to learn how to get drunk to forget your loss?

 

[Commoner]

That's a very sad situation -from an earthly perspective.

But - currently the death rate for humans is 100 percent.

You mean zero percent, right? Or have you gone back to the earthly perspective?

You've yet to produce any way in which this is awsome in some other perspective. Until then, your arguments are about as valid as the "It's for your own good, boy/girl" that one hears after a good beating. You know, not really seeing the upside and not really keen on having "faith" in the one throwing the punches.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I'm sorry if this has been asked - but is this person in question a Christian?