Explain this logically christians....

[Kathryn]

so saying all things work together for good, doesn't really make logical sense because the loss of a loved one isn't good in the here and now.

In one year, I lost my husband, my thriving business, my home, my career, my son was arrested, my daughter moved across the country with my precious granddaughter, my mother had a massive stroke and became disabled and my dad leaned totally on me, and to top it all off - my beloved dog died! And then I found out that my husband had tried to cheat the IRS and they were after me for $23,000.

Now - I'm not saying this is as bad as losing your wife and daughter in an accident, but...it's pretty damn bad.

My point is that all of that - ALL OF IT - by the time it ran full circle, worked out for the best, and my life is better now than it was before that fateful year. But I had to hold onto my belief that all things work together for good, for those who love the Lord and are called to His purpose - I had to hang onto that hope for dear life while I was going through all that. And I can honestly say I never did lose faith, even in the midst of such turmoil and heartbreak.

I've also had a stillborn child - and a number of other pretty significant tragedies in my life. All that happened in less than a year though. Yes, it was pretty tough.

By the way - I worked things out with the IRS - so sometimes, things aren't as bad as we think they are - or are GOING to be.

All those things made me the person I am today - the person my husband loves and who has a very fulfilling life.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

In one year, I lost my husband, my thriving business, my home, my career, my son was arrested, my daughter moved across the country with my precious granddaughter, my mother had a massive stroke and became disabled and my dad leaned totally on me, and to top it all off - my beloved dog died! And then I found out that my husband had tried to cheat the IRS and they were after me for $23,000.

Damn.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

In one year, I lost my husband, my thriving business, my home, my career, my son was arrested, my daughter moved across the country with my precious granddaughter, my mother had a massive stroke and became disabled and my dad leaned totally on me, and to top it all off - my beloved dog died! And then I found out that my husband had tried to cheat the IRS and they were after me for $23,000.

Now - I'm not saying this is as bad as losing your wife and daughter in an accident, but...it's pretty damn bad.

My point is that all of that - ALL OF IT - by the time it ran full circle, worked out for the best, and my life is better now than it was before that fateful year. But I had to hold onto my belief that all things work together for good, for those who love the Lord and are called to His purpose - I had to hang onto that hope for dear life while I was going through all that. And I can honestly say I never did lose faith, even in the midst of such turmoil and heartbreak.

I've also had a stillborn child - and a number of other pretty significant tragedies in my life. All that happened in less than a year though. Yes, it was pretty tough.

By the way - I worked things out with the IRS - so sometimes, things aren't as bad as we think they are - or are GOING to be.

All those things made me the person I am today - the person my husband loves and who has a very fulfilling life.

And it's awesome that you had firm faith in your religion to lean on. But Christianity doesn't work for all people. If it's one thing I've tried to emphasize that I believe on these boards, it's that I believe all religions are equal and valid, and each person has to choose their own path. Me, I was divorced earlier this year. Not as bad as what you and the story in the OP went through, but, subjectively, it was devastating. I tried to believe that God had a plan for what I was going through. I prayed for God to reveal His will. I begged and pleaded for the pain to go away. But none of that ever materialized. It wasn't until I converted to Buddhism that I began to get better. And I realized that I had found my path. I think the main point is to find what works for you, as an individual, because everything else is going to be fruitless.

 

[Commoner]

In one year, I lost my husband, my thriving business, my home, my career, my son was arrested, my daughter moved across the country with my precious granddaughter, my mother had a massive stroke and became disabled and my dad leaned totally on me, and to top it all off - my beloved dog died! And then I found out that my husband had tried to cheat the IRS and they were after me for $23,000.

Now - I'm not saying this is as bad as losing your wife and daughter in an accident, but...it's pretty damn bad.

It really is.

My point is that all of that - ALL OF IT - by the time it ran full circle, worked out for
the best, and my life is better now than it was before that fateful year.

Excuse me for being blunt, but how exactly has your mother's stroke worked out for the best and for whom? Just, for example.

All those things made me the person I am today - the person my husband loves and who has a very fulfilling life.

I don't know, I bet it would have been even more fulfilling had your husband not tried to defraud the IRS in the first place. What you're saying is similar to what my would-be stock broker friend has always tried to convince me of - you've got to lose it all a couple of times before you really strike it big.

 

[waitasec]

In one year, I lost my husband, my thriving business, my home, my career, my son was arrested, my daughter moved across the country with my precious granddaughter, my mother had a massive stroke and became disabled and my dad leaned totally on me, and to top it all off - my beloved dog died! And then I found out that my husband had tried to cheat the IRS and they were after me for $23,000.

Now - I'm not saying this is as bad as losing your wife and daughter in an accident, but...it's pretty damn bad.

My point is that all of that - ALL OF IT - by the time it ran full circle, worked out for the best, and my life is better now than it was before that fateful year. But I had to hold onto my belief that all things work together for good, for those who love the Lord and are called to His purpose - I had to hang onto that hope for dear life while I was going through all that. And I can honestly say I never did lose faith, even in the midst of such turmoil and heartbreak.

I've also had a stillborn child - and a number of other pretty significant tragedies in my life. All that happened in less than a year though. Yes, it was pretty tough.

By the way - I worked things out with the IRS - so sometimes, things aren't as bad as we think they are - or are GOING to be.

All those things made me the person I am today - the person my husband loves and who has a very fulfilling life.

it's very impressive how you pulled through with all those blows in 1 yr. and it goes to show you are a women of sheer strength that is very admirable.

that being said, you didn't loose your entire family...
and i can't imagine, i can't even fathom what it must be like, and i would never say, 'your painful senseless loss will work out for the good...' because they're gone.
actually, i think it's a very inconsiderate and indifferent thing to say.

 

[Katzpur]

A close friend informed me today that his cousin lost his wife and 2 kids to a drunk driver a few days ago.
Now the cousin is being asked to "lean on god" and "faith" to make it through it.
So explain that if it was god's "plan" to take his family away, then why lean on god for support? How does that logically make sense?

I don't think it was God's plan to take your friend's family away. From what you've said, it was the fault of a drunk driver and not God.

 

[Katzpur]

Excuse me for being blunt, but how exactly has your mother's stroke worked out for the best and for whom? Just, for example.

Honestly, could you possibly have asked a more callous question? :no:

 

[Commoner]

Honestly, could you possibly have asked a more callous question? :no:

She's a tough lady, she can handle it. I can't ignore it just because it would be insensitive to address it - she made the claim, not me, I'm just asking for an explanation.

 

[blackout]

And it's awesome that you had firm faith in your religion to lean on. But Christianity doesn't work for all people. If it's one thing I've tried to emphasize that I believe on these boards, it's that I believe all religions are equal and valid, and each person has to choose their own path. Me, I was divorced earlier this year. Not as bad as what you and the story in the OP went through, but, subjectively, it was devastating. I tried to believe that God had a plan for what I was going through. I prayed for God to reveal His will. I begged and pleaded for the pain to go away. But none of that ever materialized. It wasn't until I converted to Buddhism that I began to get better. And I realized that I had found my path. I think the main point is to find what works for you, as an individual, because everything else is going to be fruitless.

Well said.

There is nothing "special" about christianity
that "makes" all things work together
(for those who are called, or whatever).

People of all different faiths and non-faiths
have all kinds of difficulties,
and similar life turn-arounds.

Some people's greatest life turn arounds
have included the letting go of christianity.
This was true in my own case.

 

[chinu]

A close friend informed me today that his cousin lost his wife and 2 kids to a drunk driver a few days ago.
Now the cousin is being asked to "lean on god" and "faith" to make it through it.
So explain that if it was god's "plan" to take his family away, then why lean on god for support? How does that logically make sense?

So many peoples die due to some naturel activities like earthquecks or tornados etc...,

The people who are far from these dangerous activities of nature, do they cry or weap for the people or the families who are effected in these naturel activities ?

NO!!!, Because they don't have any heartly relations with them.

So, Jesus always advocated that try to find the base of your Sorrow and always try to remove it from your life.

So, Niner buff ji, in this case of your friend's cousin the base of sorrow is FALSE HEARTLY ATTACHMENTS.

Jesus always advocated that : One shall always pay the duties which he/she has towards his/her families but Never give your heart to your family, Keep your heart only for God or Jesus because one day you have to leave this world & family, why to love such things which we have to leave one day.

So, after such things which are very nicely explained in bible for the peoples, if anybody is giving his/her heart to the false things which definatily he/she has to leave one day then........What is the fault of Jesus or God ?


_/\_Chinu.

 

[Copernicus]

How we deal with personal tragedy is a good subject for religious debate, because there are always two sides to a religion--the explanatory side and the compensatory side. In the past few centuries, religion seems to have become less and less useful as an explanation of why things work the way they do. Science does a much better job of explaining nature, although there are many who still find religion as a helpful explanation.

But the other thing that religion gives us is a way of coping with life. Traditionally, it sets guidelines for social behavior and for handling life's pleasures and pains. To the extent that it builds a community around an individual, it forms a social network of support. Quite clearly, atheism offers none of that. Atheism per se does not provide any guidelines or lessons. It is amoralistic. People don't become atheists easily.

What the person in the OP went through, and what Kathryn went through, was painful to read about. I think that Kathryn is truly an amazing person for having survived such hardship, and I have no doubt that her religious belief played a major role in helping her. Had she been an atheist, she might have coped just as well. Sometimes it is just a matter of character--being able to put tragedy behind and moving ahead to see how best to live the rest of your life.

Some of us left religion because of the way it tries to explain suffering. By normal human standards, any sentient being that can prevent tragedy to others without harm or inconvenience themselves would be considered depraved and indifferent. So it is hard to reconcile the idea of a loving, all-powerful God with horrendous suffering and, even more importantly, with the unevenness of suffering. Sometimes very good people suffer horribly, and not so good people live long, comfortable lives. God plays no favorites, and yet people still pray for mercy. Whether justified or not, there is an expectation that God will favor the faithful, and that is quite often held out as a motive for maintaining faith. From the perspective of someone who lacks religious belief, there appears to be a lot of cognitive dissonance in the way that religious people try to reconcile God's apparent indifference and their own conviction that he is anything but indifferent.

Of course, I count myself lucky that I have not yet gone through anything like Kathryn's pain. It can happen to anyone. My universe is one of total indifference to my existence, but not the local part of it that I inhabit. To the extent that I can find happiness and comfort, I will do it. And I will continue to try to understand more of what it is that life is all about. Sometimes it is just living in the moment. We seek out the peaks and try to avoid the pitfalls.

 

[Sententia]

In one year, I lost my husband, my thriving business, my home, my career, my son was arrested, my daughter moved across the country with my precious granddaughter, my mother had a massive stroke and became disabled and my dad leaned totally on me, and to top it all off - my beloved dog died! And then I found out that my husband had tried to cheat the IRS and they were after me for $23,000.

Now - I'm not saying this is as bad as losing your wife and daughter in an accident, but...it's pretty damn bad.

My point is that all of that - ALL OF IT - by the time it ran full circle, worked out for the best, and my life is better now than it was before that fateful year. But I had to hold onto my belief that all things work together for good, for those who love the Lord and are called to His purpose - I had to hang onto that hope for dear life while I was going through all that. And I can honestly say I never did lose faith, even in the midst of such turmoil and heartbreak.

I've also had a stillborn child - and a number of other pretty significant tragedies in my life. All that happened in less than a year though. Yes, it was pretty tough.

By the way - I worked things out with the IRS - so sometimes, things aren't as bad as we think they are - or are GOING to be.

All those things made me the person I am today - the person my husband loves and who has a very fulfilling life.

I have had more then my share of loss and hopefully I am still around in a year to banter with ya'll but I feel the need to be blunt.

What is your point? That tragic and BS events had to occur to make you.. - ... you? A "you" that your husband loves and a "you" that has a fulfilling life and all that is just what should happen to everyone so they can realize who they are?

I went through hell Kat. I am not interested in sharing as this isn't a survival support forum but the !@#!@ I went through no one should ever have to go through. So it worked out for me... Is that the optimal way people should grow up?

I really am not sure how to express this. Survival of the fittest is reality. But we have handicap spots. If someone loses their arms and legs they can not survive with out our help.

In the same way if an event happens and you choose to keep living but someone else going through the same event chooses suicide your response of thank god for that tragic event as now I am stronger didn't work out for the other person who took their life because of the tragic event.

Tragedy can make us stronger but it can also destroy us. Our goal should be to help prevent tragedies happening to others and in learning everything we possibly can from the tragedies that befall us. Our goal should not be to glorify tragedy as some thing that makes us better than others even if it does make you better. A million and a dozen humans exposed to a virus may all die save the dozen. Who is to say that the dozen that survived are better? They were simply equipped to deal with the virus in ways the other million were not...

 

[Kathryn]

And it's awesome that you had firm faith in your religion to lean on. But Christianity doesn't work for all people. If it's one thing I've tried to emphasize that I believe on these boards, it's that I believe all religions are equal and valid, and each person has to choose their own path. Me, I was divorced earlier this year. Not as bad as what you and the story in the OP went through, but, subjectively, it was devastating. I tried to believe that God had a plan for what I was going through. I prayed for God to reveal His will. I begged and pleaded for the pain to go away. But none of that ever materialized. It wasn't until I converted to Buddhism that I began to get better. And I realized that I had found my path. I think the main point is to find what works for you, as an individual, because everything else is going to be fruitless.

Here's what the OP asked:

[QUOTEA close friend informed me today that his cousin lost his wife and 2 kids to a drunk driver a few days ago.
Now the cousin is being asked to "lean on god" and "faith" to make it through it.
So explain that if it was god's "plan" to take his family away, then why lean on god for support? How does that logically make sense?][/QUOTE]

The OP didn't ask what I would SAY to another person going through that. The OP asked our opinion and viewpoint, so I was giving mine.

Now for your personal situation, my opinion (and that's all it is) is that one year probably isn't enough time to, through your faith, allow things to work together for good. So, losing your Christian faith seems a bit precipitous a reaction if it was due simply to your one rough year. Of course, that's probably a simplistic approach and I'm sure you have your reasons - I'm just saying that the very meaning of faith implies that you HANG ONTO IT over time and THROUGH very tough situations.

I'm not criticising you - like I said, your faith decisions are your own business - and strictly between you and God. You don't owe me or anyone else an explanation.

I am sorry, by the way, that you went through such devastation. Believe me, I know how you feel and I wouldn't wish that raw feeling on anyone.

 

[Kathryn]

.

[QUOTE
Excuse me for being blunt, but how exactly has your mother's stroke worked out for the best and for whom? Just, for example.
][/QUOTE]

Thank you very much for the opportunity to expand on this.

My mother herself would be the first to tell you that the stroke has had a lot of very positive ramifications in her life. For one thing, the whole experience altered her personality in some very positive ways. Previous to the stroke, she was definitely a Type A personality - with all the anger and frustration that can come with that personality type. Basically, she was a hell raiser who loved to fight. Unfortunately, she didn't have any other Type A'ers in the family who enjoyed fighting like she did, so this created a lot of anxiety and hurt in our family and especially in her marriage to my father.

She has told me repeatedly that she never appreciated the gentle and kind side to him till she suffered this stroke. Their marriage, believe it or not, has been GREATLY improved because of the stroke.

My mother is my hero. Never in my life have I ever seen someone handle a serious blow to their mobility with this much grace. She has literally never, not one time, exhibited one ounce of anger or bitterness. She told me that until she had the stroke, she never appreciated life or her family as she should have. Now she does, and she takes every opportunity to show it. We are much closer.

It's not that anyone would WISH that on her - but she herself says that overall, her life is happier now than it was before the stroke. But she was very open to learning whatever God could teach her thru this experience, rather than fighting it through bitterness and anger.

I don't know, I bet it would have been even more fulfilling had your husband not tried to defraud the IRS in the first place. What you're saying is similar to what my would-be stock broker friend has always tried to convince me of - you've got to lose it all a couple of times before you really strike it big.

I was in a bad marriage, but trying desperately to make it work. My ex husband's many transgressions (including the tax escapade) are a load that HE has to carry. They also eventually showed me that the marriage was un-redeemable, and gave me the closure to move forward and into a much happier life.

It took a lot of time and work to rebuild my life - don't get me wrong. You can't lose all that I lost and regain it overnight. But I kept my faith - something I had not done in the past through tragedy (this wasn't my first round of personal tragedy and devastation). I rebuilt my life, my career, and even my personality - by not allowing bitterness and fear and anger to consume me. And I am a much happier person - and married to a much better man. I feel amazingly blessed.

 

[Pegg]

A close friend informed me today that his cousin lost his wife and 2 kids to a drunk driver a few days ago.
Now the cousin is being asked to "lean on god" and "faith" to make it through it.
So explain that if it was god's "plan" to take his family away, then why lean on god for support? How does that logically make sense?

we need to understand that God does not cause bad things to happen such as this tragic accident.
Ecclesiates 9:11-12 "I returned to see under the sun that the swift do not have the race, nor the mighty ones the battle, nor do the wise also have the food, nor do the understanding ones also have the riches, nor do even those having knowledge have the favor; because time and unforeseen occurrence befall them all. 12 For man also does not know his time. Just like fishes that are being taken in an evil net, and like birds that are being taken in a trap, so the sons of men themselves are being ensnared at a calamitous time, when it falls upon them suddenly


The comfort God gives us is in the knowledge that our dead loved ones will live again.
2 Corinthians 1:3-4, 7 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of tender mercies and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our tribulation.”...Our hope for you is unwavering, knowing as we do that, just as you are sharers of the sufferings, in the same way you will also share the comfort.”

1 Thess. 4:13, 14. “Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant concerning those who are sleeping in death, that you may not sorrow just as the rest also do who have no hope. For if our faith is that Jesus died and rose again, so, too, those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus God will bring with him.”


The comfort is that they will be among those resurrected and he will be reunited with them once again.
Acts 24:15 “I have hope toward God, which hope these men themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.”


That is the comfort God gives us...yes we suffer now, yes we are in pain now, but it is only temporary. We can take comfort in knowing that they are resting peacefully and will awaken surrounded by family and friends to welcome them back. Taking comfort in God means putting faith in that hope of the resurrection.. ... of course this does not mean a christian does not suffer pain and sorrow, no. Death is unnatural to us which is why our emotions go into overdrive when we have to deal with death... so dont take these words from the bible to mean that we should not grieve or feel sorrow because we still will, but the key is that we can take comfort that there is a light shining at the end of the tunnel.

 

[Kathryn]

it's very impressive how you pulled through with all those blows in 1 yr. and it goes to show you are a women of sheer strength that is very admirable.

that being said, you didn't loose your entire family...
and i can't imagine, i can't even fathom what it must be like, and i would never say, 'your painful senseless loss will work out for the good...' because they're gone.actually, i think it's a very inconsiderate and indifferent thing to say.

The OP didn't ask what we would SAY to the person experiencing devastating loss. It asked for our own explanation to the OP - two different scenarios. I would never say to someone who lost a family member, "'your painful senseless loss will work out for the good...' because they're gone." So please don't put those words in my mouth.

I am telling my story because maybe one day someone reading this will be going through something very hard and painful, and may remember my story, and it may do them some good and give them some hope.

For people who have lost a loved one, what I do is this - I attend the services, and then I stay in touch with the person over the next year. I let them cry, let them talk, and I share my memories of their loved one with them. I think it's very important to grieving people to know that their loved one is REMEMBERED.

I also usually buy them a copy of CS Lewis' EXCELLENT book on grief, entitled "A Grief Observed." It's very short, and he wrote it immediately after his beloved wife's death from cancer. It's powerful, brutally honest, and comforting - not in it's spiritual advice as much as in the sense of cameraderie and the truth that even a "spiritual giant" like CS Lewis struggles with doubt and anger after such a loss.

 

[Kathryn]

I have had more then my share of loss and hopefully I am still around in a year to banter with ya'll but I feel the need to be blunt.



..

What is your point? That tragic and BS events had to occur to make you.. - ... you? A "you" that your husband loves and a "you" that has a fulfilling life and all that is just what should happen to everyone so they can realize who they are?

No - my point is that tragedy can be incorporated into our lives as strength. We can learn humility and the need for others, and for God, rather than relying only on our own "wisdom" and "strength" when we simply have none left to give. Tragedy can teach us a lot, and can make us better people - if we allow it to. And it's very difficult. I haven't always been able to do this. But I was able to this last go 'round. And so I wanted to share that with others. There IS hope. There IS joy and love and happiness that is possible after great tragedy. It's there, in your future - don't lose hope.

We can allow tragedies and sorrows to define us and to shatter our lives, or we can learn and grow from them. Most of the time, the choice is ours. It's a tough choice - it seems easier to give in to the pain and become bitter. But it's not the ONLY choice we have.

That's my message - that's what I learned.

I went through hell Kat. I am not interested in sharing as this isn't a survival support forum but the !@#!@ I went through no one should ever have to go through. So it worked out for me... Is that the optimal way people should grow up?

Tragedies and sorrows are part of life. If we live long enough, we will probably experience them - sometimes many of them. When we push through them and are able to rebuild our lives, we can give others the hope and strength they may need.

Not to sound trite, but a life with no hardships doesn't build much character or strength.

I really am not sure how to express this. Survival of the fittest is reality. But we have handicap spots. If someone loses their arms and legs they can not survive with out our help.

In the same way if an event happens and you choose to keep living but someone else going through the same event chooses suicide your response of thank god for that tragic event as now I am stronger didn't work out for the other person who took their life because of the tragic event.

I can't speak for the other person, nor can I judge them. But what I CAN do is try to give them hope and strength and cameraderie so that they do not lose hope, fall into despair, and commit suicide or live in perpetual sorrow. I can only do that with validity if I've also experienced great pain. Only then can I meet them where they are.

It's a blessing to be able to do so - to be able to help people through my own sad experiences. It's very gratifying.

Tragedy can make us stronger but it can also destroy us. Our goal should be to help prevent tragedies happening to others and in learning everything we possibly can from the tragedies that befall us. Our goal should not be to glorify tragedy as some thing that makes us better than others even if it does make you better. A million and a dozen humans exposed to a virus may all die save the dozen. Who is to say that the dozen that survived are better? They were simply equipped to deal with the virus in ways the other million were not.

It is not in my power to prevent all tragedies from happening. It IS in my power to help others cope as they go through their own personal tragedies.

I just do what I can to make the world a better place. This takes many forms - sometimes simply good customer service on my job, sometimes giving to charity, sometimes helping someone rebuild after they've lost everything in a fire, and sometimes just listening to someone as they cry - and letting them pour out their hearts because they know I understand.

 

[PolyHedral]

Not to sound trite, but a life with no hardships doesn't build much character or strength.

But you don't need the strength if there's no hardships.

 

[Pegg]

It took a lot of time and work to rebuild my life - don't get me wrong. You can't lose all that I lost and regain it overnight. But I kept my faith - something I had not done in the past through tragedy (this wasn't my first round of personal tragedy and devastation). I rebuilt my life, my career, and even my personality - by not allowing bitterness and fear and anger to consume me. And I am a much happier person - and married to a much better man. I feel amazingly blessed.

you've been 'thru the mill' as the saying goes. So sorry to hear of all your loss but its inspiring to see your attitude and that you came out of it with your faith in tact.

thanks for sharing.

 

[Vansdad]

So if a drunk driver killed your family, you could lean on them? What you lean on them for....to learn how to get drunk to forget your loss?

Maybe you might learn to forgive them.