Explain this logically christians....

[dyanaprajna2011]

the thought of being "blessed" is questionable on so many levels.

That's true. That made me think of something I'm fond of saying: "the world's great philosophers taught that the meaning to life is finding happiness, whatever that may be. But I've found that the meaning to life is survival."

 

[waitasec]

That's true. That made me think of something I'm fond of saying: "the world's great philosophers taught that the meaning to life is finding happiness, whatever that may be. But I've found that the meaning to life is survival."

indeed :sw:
may the force be with you....

 

[Kathryn]

.

I guess the people who, after having suffered a stroke, cannot take a **** on their own, don't know what's going on most of the time and can't recognize their friends and falmily weren't so lucky. How has their life improved? How have the lives of the people around them improved?

You are lucky, as is your mother, that you are in a better place now than you were before, despite having suffered a stroke. It's possible, it's just not what usually happens - or we wouldn't consider strokes to be bad.

I'd say what you call rationalizing is what others would call making the most of what you've got and determining to be happy. In doing so, often you find that your life improves - in SPITE of external limitations.

Or do you not believe that happiness is a state of mind? Does joy depend solely on external factors or is it a matter of the heart? Do you think that if you have enough things or enough health or enough money you will be happy?

I really wonder, do you think this is some sort of special deal you got - that everything bad that happens to you works out for the best - or do you in fact think this is reality for everyone?

What I have is faith and a positive attitude - regardless of my circumstances. I think that when a person lives their faith and lives positively, things generally do turn out better for them - or at the very least, they are able to find the good in their circumstances.

You know what - I guess I could focus on what I've lost, be a victim and a tragic figure for the rest of my life. In fact, I have a cousin who lives that way. Now she's in her 70s and is alone, wretched, and still focused on all she's lost in her life. And you know what - because of that negativity, she's lost even MORE over time.

But you're right - I could still be sitting here wailing over everything I lost in a year, because I've never gotten those things back. They're gone for good.

But by refusing to wallow in my misery, I was able to move forward. Now I'm able to help others move forward too.

I'm sorry, but you just seem to be doing a lot of rationalizing here. Which isn't bad per se, it's just not useful as an argument.

But I'm not trying to argue. I'm sharing my experiences and my opinion. Maybe I will be able to help someone else going through something similar.

You have eliminated the existence of anything that doesn't "work out" by taking a moment in time that everything seems to be in order and looking back at all the nasty stuff that happened in the past and then making the error of attributing the "in order" to the tragic events in the past.

Well, I haven't written a biography here. You really don't know all the pertinent facts and I don't have the time or inclination to go into all of them, especially with someone who doesn't really seem to care, other than to try to argue the facts of MY LIFE away.

But I'll tell you this much - if I HADN'T lost my husband, my marriage, my career, my business, my home, my town, a whole group of friends, my dog, my money (oh, and I forgot to mention that in the middle of all this, I totalled my car - and my youngest son was in New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina and we didn't hear from him for ten days) - then I most certainly wouldn't have the blessings that I have today.

And what I have today is much better, and much more fulfilling than what I had six years ago. My life is much healthier, my relationships are better, and my family is much closer.

It's a bit like arguing that nothing can kill us - bucause nothing does, until it does - until one day, you don't actually recover from the **** that happens to you. So, everything works out for the better, until it doesn't.

Hey - one day something's going to kill me. And that's OK. I'm ready. And I've lived a very full life - lost a lot, and gained a lot more. I wouldn't have it any other way.

I'm sure I'll have other trials in my life - some of them may be absolutely awful. But guess what - I know I've got the strength to face them, and I find that strength in my faith.

What doesn't kill us makes us stronger, right? Phhh.... It's actually: the more likely something is to kill us on average, the more lucky (or stronger) we have to be in order to survive and not suffer serious, long term consequences.

Sounds like you're just trying to survive. That's not enough for me.

 

[Kathryn]

By the way, check out this amazing woman:

Power to Change - joni eareckson becomes a quadriplegic after a reckless dive

Joni Eareckson Tada gets 'positive prognosis' after surgery

This is Joni Eareckson Tada.

When she was in her teens, a beautiful, vibrant young woman, she dove into shallow water, broke her neck, and was paralyzed from the neck down. What she has accomplished in her life (a career, marriage, charity work, etc) is nothing short of amazing. She will be the first to tell you that in spite of her difficulties, she has come to terms with her limitations and has decided to live her life to the fullest possible. And her faith has given her the strength to do so.

I never claimed to be special, or better or more deserving than anyone else. There are plenty of true heroes out there who are much better people than I ever dreamed of being.

 

[Commoner]

I'd say what you call rationalizing is what others would call making the most of what you've got and determining to be happy. In doing so, often you find that your life improves - in SPITE of external limitations.

Or do you not believe that happiness is a state of mind? Does joy depend solely on external factors or is it a matter of the heart? Do you think that if you have enough things or enough health or enough money you will be happy?

Hey, I'm all for a positive attitude. I'm just not much into pretending that things just work out for the best for everyone, regardless of what happens to them. That seems a bit out of touch with reality to me. Of course we strive for our lives to improve - and they usually do. That's not the point. You seem to think that the only way for people to do that is to get in some sort of trouble - that's what I have a problem with. To imply that something like having a child killed by a drunken driver will work out for the best - that's what I have a problem with.

Happiness is a state of mind, but that doesn't mean it's independent of reality. I'm not any happier for someone close to me having died, not then, not after. There is no reason to assume that you or I wouldn't be just as happy or even happier if we could have had some of those things not happen. And I do think that my ability to be happy is dependent upon things like having my healt, having a home and earning an income. It's not that having those makes you happy, it's just that it's harder to be happy when you don't.

What I have is faith and a positive attitude - regardless of my circumstances. I think that when a person lives their faith and lives positively, things generally do turn out better for them - or at the very least, they are able to find the good in their circumstances.

Yes! Exactly. See - that's fine with me. It's the causal connection you're trying to imply between "negative circumstances" and things getting better that really gets me going. That somehow without getting your face smashed in at one point in your life you could not possibly be as happy as you are now or be as full of a person, worthy of love and respect, etc...

You know what - I guess I could focus on what I've lost, be a victim and a tragic figure for the rest of my life. In fact, I have a cousin who lives that way. Now she's in her 70s and is alone, wretched, and still focused on all she's lost in her life. And you know what - because of that negativity, she's lost even MORE over time.

But you're right - I could still be sitting here wailing over everything I lost in a year, because I've never gotten those things back. They're gone for good.

That's not what I'm saying at all.

But by refusing to wallow in my misery, I was able to move forward. Now I'm able to help others move forward too.

Not by implying that having something really bad happen to them was actually the best thing that could have happen to them and that they should be grateful for that.

Well, I haven't written a biography here. You really don't know all the pertinent facts and I don't have the time or inclination to go into all of them, especially with someone who doesn't really seem to care, other than to try to argue the facts of MY LIFE away.

It's not that I want to argue the facts of your life with you, I would have been more than happy with a hypothetical example. And it's not that I don't care, I just don't think it's good for a discussion if one can't address other people's arguments objectively - and that sometimes means harshly, even though that's not the intention.

But I'll tell you this much - if I HADN'T lost my husband, my marriage, my career, my business, my home, my town, a whole group of friends, my dog, my money (oh, and I forgot to mention that in the middle of all this, I totalled my car - and my youngest son was in New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina and we didn't hear from him for ten days) - then I most certainly wouldn't have the blessings that I have today.

There you go - that's where I go my way and you go your way. I mean, how can you possibly know what would have been had those things not happened? That's just mind-boggling that you think that the only reason for you being in a good place today is because of everything bad that happened to you - and to others, by the way; rather than in spite of them.

And what I have today is much better, and much more fulfilling than what I had six years ago. My life is much healthier, my relationships are better, and my family is much closer.

Of course it is, because you're tough and because you've all worked hard to make your lives better.

Hey - one day something's going to kill me. And that's OK. I'm ready. And I've lived a very full life - lost a lot, and gained a lot more. I wouldn't have it any other way.

No, that wasn't the point. I'm saying that you were able to recover from everything that has been thrown at you - partially because of your character and partially because of the way things worked out that you had no influence over. That's great - I'm just saying sometimes there is no recovering from something - no matter how much you try. To just dismiss any tragic even as being part of a big conspiracy that will ultimately lead to something awesome seems, again, quite out of touch with reality.

Sounds like you're just trying to survive. That's not enough for me.

I'm not just trying to survive, but I'm not going to dismiss reality just to make myself feel better. I'm not going to pretend that everything happens for a reason for everyone and that ultimately everything that happens is "for the best" just because it might be comforting to me. It's not comforting to others, you know - it's not nice to say to someone that's in a pickle that it's for his own good, and it's not nice to pretend as if it were.

 

[Kathryn]

.

Hey, I'm all for a positive attitude. I'm just not much into pretending that things just work out for the best for everyone, regardless of what happens to them. That seems a bit out of touch with reality to me.

Yes, that IS out of touch with reality, and that's why that's not what I said. I am a Christian, and I have faith in God and what He reveals to us, and here is one of the verses that I believe God has given us to help us navigate our lives:

Romans 8:28 (New International Version)


28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

THAT'S what I've said repeatedly that I believe. Read it again, this time more carefully.

Of course we strive for our lives to improve - and they usually do. That's not the point.

Well, actually, I think that some peoples' lives seem to be nothing much more than one steady stream of sorrow and misery and general unhappiness. And you're right - that's not my point.

You seem to think that the only way for people to do that is to get in some sort of trouble - that's what I have a problem with. To imply that something like having a child killed by a drunken driver will work out for the best - that's what I have a problem with.

Once again - that's not what I've said. I have a problem with that statement as well, and with you trying to shove those words into my mouth. It's not what I believe.

Let me see if I can break this down for you. Life will inevitably bring pain and sorrow and grief if we live long enough. We can either allow those events to break us, alter our psyches and personalities in a permanently negative way, and become perpetually bitter (and I think both of us know people who live like that), or we can, in spite of the pain, be open to the lessons the pain teaches us, reach down deep inside us and tap into that peace which passes understanding:

Phillipians 4:4-9

"Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near.

Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things. Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you."

I have applied these principles to my life and I have found this peace, whose end result is a deep joy that transcends what's going on externally. This doesn't mean that we don't feel grief, or pain. What it DOES mean is that we don't lose our faith or that deep inner peace which our faith imparts DURING the inevitable pain that accompanies life on this earth.

You've heard the old expression "When life gives you lemons, make lemonade." Now of COURSE I wouldn't say that to a person who has lost a child in the midst of their grief. But I can say it now, and I can testify to my faith and the peace it has given me during my difficult times, and maybe someone who is reading this may remember what I said when they are faced with a difficult chapter in their lives.

Look at Jonie Earekson Tada - she's done exactly this. Would she rather be able to walk or dress herself? Probably so. But she also knows that if her accident had not happened, she wouldn't have the life, the marriage, the career that she has now - and she wouldn't have become so active in the "world of the disabled" and been able to further their causes as she has, and brought hope, and joy, and RESULTS to so many suffering people.

Work out for the best? As I've said before, there is no "what might have been." There is only "what is." The child is dead. She can't be brought back. So - the father can either allow this tragic event to destroy his life, or he can use this event to learn, to become a stronger person, and through that strength, help others through similar trials.

Happiness is a state of mind, but that doesn't mean it's independent of reality. I'm not any happier for someone close to me having died, not then, not after.

We really shouldn't interchange the words "happiness" and "joy." They're really two different things. Happiness is transitory, joy is more permanent. Joy is deeper, quieter. It's more akin to peace.

No one is expecting you to be HAPPIER when you lose a loved one, but we can move through that grief more gracefully when we have that deep inner peace. I derive that peace from my faith. And on the other side of that grief, when the event is incorporated healthily into our lives, we can be a better person than we were before the event.

[QUOTE
There is no reason to assume that you or I wouldn't be just as happy or even happier if we could have had some of those things not happen.

][/quote]

It is what it is. There is no "what might have been." There is only "what is." THAT is reality. THAT'S what we have to deal with. That's what I am dealing with, contrary to what you seem to think.

**** happens. What we do with it in part determines our personal successes or failures.

And I do think that my ability to be happy is dependent upon things like having my healt, having a home and earning an income. It's not that having those makes you happy, it's just that it's harder to be happy when you don't.

This is where my faith strengthens me. Also, I am 48 years old, and I realize now that my happiness does NOT depend on my health, where I live, or earning an income.

I've been rich and I've been poor. I've been so poor and broke that I was actually living in a storage shed at one point in my life! And guess what - I was joyful. I had hope - the hope that faith imparts in my heart. I knew that I had done all I could do, made the best decisions possible, and submitted my will to God - not MY will, but HIS will - I had accepted it and my heart and mind was open to whatever He needed to teach me. And He taught me.

I'm NOT bragging. I am testifying to the fact that we CAN have peace and joy that doesn't rely on our material things or the things we think are so important in this life.

It's the causal connection you're trying to imply between "negative circumstances" and things getting better that really gets me going. That somehow without getting your face smashed in at one point in your life you could not possibly be as happy as you are now or be as full of a person, worthy of love and respect, etc...

See, there you go again, putting a spin on what I'm saying. That's NOT what I am saying. See above.

Not by implying that having something really bad happen to them was actually the best thing that could have happen to them and that they should be grateful for that.

Do you honestly think I would tell a grieving parent that they should be grateful for losing a child?

Like I've said a million times by now (it seems) I'm saying that IT IS POSSIBLE for truly tragic events in our lives to teach us lessons and open opportunities for us to help others down the road, enriching our lives and the lives of others. See Joni Earekson Tada.

 

[Kathryn]

It's not that I want to argue the facts of your life with you, I would have been more than happy with a hypothetical example. And it's not that I don't care, I just don't think it's good for a discussion if one can't address other people's arguments objectively - and that sometimes means harshly, even though that's not the intention.

I'm not offended. I am using the examples in my own life because they are pertinent to the topic at hand. What bothers me though is that you seem to be incessantly trying to twist what I am saying into something else. I am testifying to what has happened in my own life. I am not special, or gifted, or all that unique. I am not even a particularly good or holy person. If God's peace and strength can work through MY life, surely it can work in other peoples' lives. I want to share this with others, hoping that they too can find what I've found in their "hour of need."

I mean, how can you possibly know what would have been had those things not happened? That's just mind-boggling that you think that the only reason for you being in a good place today is because of everything bad that happened to you - and to others, by the way; rather than in spite of them.

Sigh. Here's my mantra again. "There is no what might have been. There is only what is." We gots to play the hand we're dealt, baby.

I don't "think that the only reason for me being in a good place today is because of everything bad that happened to me." I know that bad things DID happen to me, and they moved me to other realities, other people, places, and events. Obviously if I was still married to my ex husband, I wouldn't be married to the man I am married to now. If I hadn't lost my business and my career as a realtor and real estate office owner, I wouldn't be working in a bank today. If I hadn't lost my dream home - my beautiful historic home in the heart of the historic district, with it's lovely brick streets and gorgeous homes - I wouldn't live in the home I love today.

I believe that God restored all I lost - not necessarily in the same forms, shapes, or people that I would have expected or forecast, or even allowed into my life - but HIS plan in my life is playing out, and I am accepting it, embracing it. It's temporary - all earthly things are. One thing I've learned is that I could lose every bit of it tomorrow. But my faith will sustain me. How do I know this? Because I've experienced it.

This greatly lessens fear in my life. And that's a very liberating feeling.

Of course it is, because you're tough and because you've all worked hard to make your lives better.

My strength doesn't come from just me. My real strength springs from my faith in an almighty God who loves me, and who knows better than I do what He plans for my life. My job here is to allow Him to work through me.

[QUOTE
I'm saying that you were able to recover from everything that has been thrown at you - partially because of your character and partially because of the way things worked out that you had no influence over. That's great - I'm just saying sometimes there is no recovering from something - no matter how much you try. To just dismiss any tragic even as being part of a big conspiracy that will ultimately lead to something awesome seems, again, quite out of touch with reality.
][/quote]

My character has been shaped over the years by my faith. And you're right - many things that happen in our lives are beyond our control. I've found that when I keep my heart open to God's guidance, I am better able to navigate life's wild river.

I don't know what makes you think that by INCORPORATING tragedies into our lives, that's dismissing them. It's the opposite.

I'm not just trying to survive, but I'm not going to dismiss reality just to make myself feel better. I'm not going to pretend that everything happens for a reason for everyone and that ultimately everything that happens is "for the best" just because it might be comforting to me.

Great. Me either. I've never said to do that, and I don't do that.

It's not comforting to others, you know - it's not nice to say to someone that's in a pickle that it's for his own good, and it's not nice to pretend as if it were

I'll repeat myself once again. I don't breeze in and lightly say to someone grieving, "It's for your own good!" You're so right - that wouldn't be nice, or tasteful. To everything there is a season, and a time for every purpose under heaven. Those words are not for that time.

I also don't think that bad things happen to us and other people FOR our own good (I'm sorry for being so repetitive, but YOU'RE repeating statements that you continue to try to make me say, and I feel I have to point out continually that I'm not saying that).

I think that bad things HAPPEN, and we can LEARN from them and become stronger people more able to help ourselves and others through the inevitable pain that life brings.

And we can find the beauty and peace in life even in very painful circumstances. Then when we see others suffering, we can be strong for them and give them hope.

Why do you think people join support groups? They join them because they know that others who have BEEN THERE DONE THAT can help them, give them hope, and strength. They want to know that one day, they will be able to smile again, to feel joy. It helps to see that in someone else that you know has gone through what you're going through.

 

[ninerbuff]

So since the "sinful" drunk driver had no right to drink and drive, God should have caused his car not to start when he got in it. And because He didn't, He's uncaring and perhaps even sadistic. And you call that logical? Where's the logic in believing that a just God would allow everybody to live forever, never aging, never becoming sick or injured and and never experiencing anything but pure joy?

Car crashes happen in seconds. Even a "redlight" delay would change an outcome. It's not about living forever. It's about people who have no ailments, or cause for death due to illness or age.

 

[Katzpur]

It's not about living forever. It's about people who have no ailments, or cause for death due to illness or age.

If we're not supposed to die in an accident or due to health issues of some sort, it certainly is about living forever. Otherwise, when and how are we supposed to die?

 

[PolyHedral]

If we're not supposed to die in an accident or due to health issues of some sort, it certainly is about living forever. Otherwise, when and how are we supposed to die?

When you get truly bored.

 

[Katzpur]

When you get truly bored.

Okay, but even if that was the case, there would more than likely be loved ones left behind. Whenever someone we loves dies, we mourn. So I guess now the question becomes, "Why would a just God give us emotions, when sooner or later someone we love is going to 'get truly bored' and die?"

This is such a pointless argument. I am more disgusted with myself ever time I post. Maybe it's just that I'm truly bored. I need to just die.

 

[micrurus]

If we're not supposed to die in an accident or due to health issues of some sort, it certainly is about living forever. Otherwise, when and how are we supposed to die?

your cells are programmed to die

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If we're not supposed to die in an accident or due to health issues of some sort, it certainly is about living forever. Otherwise, when and how are we supposed to die?

When we encounter a situation where God is unable to save us.

BTW - I find it rather strange to hear a Christian arguing that eternal life is an unreasonable proposition.

 

[PolyHedral]

Okay, but even if that was the case, there would more than likely be loved ones left behind. Whenever someone we loves dies, we mourn. So I guess now the question becomes, "Why would a just God give us emotions, when sooner or later someone we love is going to 'get truly bored' and die?"

This is such a pointless argument. I am more disgusted with myself ever time I post. Maybe it's just that I'm truly bored. I need to just die.

We only mourn because life is cut short. Would you mourn for someone for died happy, satisfied they had done everything they could ever wish for? And keep in mind how large "everything" is in this context: for the majority of people, "everything they could ever wish for" takes hundreds of lifetimes to achieve, at minimum.

 

[micrurus]

I am in a way more afraid of ethernal lif than i am of death. just try to imagine it. after ethenity, there is nothing new to do or discover, you wil have done everything an infinite amount of times. what a horrible drag that would be.

 

[Kathryn]

It's simply not within our power or our rights to determine the potential in any human life - or when that potential is no longer relevant. We simply cannot know that from where we stand.

Do you honestly think that you could, at say, age 30, map out the things you want to accomplish, and have, and experience, and pick a point in time that, if all that has been realised, you are then ready to "check out" before you are stricken with disease? When you reached that point, do you honestly think you'd be willing to pull your own plug? How can you know what will be infinitely important and precious to you forty years from now?

Likewise, how can you say that the life of a child who dies at age 7 is any less important, those accomplishments less grand, than those of a 70 year old? We have no way of measuring the value and importance of any human life - not even our own. Which is why I am opposed to the death penalty - but that's a subject for another thread.

Not a single person on this earth is guaranteed one more breath - not me, not you, not your loved ones. The sooner we wrap our heads around that, the healthier our perspective becomes. Appreciate who and what you have while you have it, because the nature of the human experience includes loss and death -goodbyes and departures.

It's all about gratitude. Focus on what you can be grateful for.

 

[waitasec]

It's simply not within our power or our rights to determine the potential in any human life - or when that potential is no longer relevant. We simply cannot know that from where we stand.

Do you honestly think that you could, at say, age 30, map out the things you want to accomplish, and have, and experience, and pick a point in time that, if all that has been realised, you are then ready to "check out" before you are stricken with disease? When you reached that point, do you honestly think you'd be willing to pull your own plug? How can you know what will be infinitely important and precious to you forty years from now?

Likewise, how can you say that the life of a child who dies at age 7 is any less important, those accomplishments less grand, than those of a 70 year old? We have no way of measuring the value and importance of any human life - not even our own. Which is why I am opposed to the death penalty - but that's a subject for another thread.

Not a single person on this earth is guaranteed one more breath - not me, not you, not your loved ones. The sooner we wrap our heads around that, the healthier our perspective becomes. Appreciate who and what you have while you have it, because the nature of the human experience includes loss and death -goodbyes and departures.

It's all about gratitude. Focus on what you can be grateful for.

but yet the saved are blessed...
i don't know about you, but that seems like the believers are giving themselves an undue degree of importance

 

[Katzpur]

When we encounter a situation where God is unable to save us.

I thought the point was that there would be no such situation. Maybe I'm confused.

BTW - I find it rather strange to hear a Christian arguing that eternal life is an unreasonable proposition.

Well, I see what you're saying, and that's not really what I was suggesting. I don't believe life on earth was ever intended to go on forever. That's why it's referred to as "mortal" life. There is supposed to be a beginning and an end to it. We're supposed to have experiences that will enable us to develop strength of character, etc. and to help us learn to make wise choices. It is the time after the resurrection, when our bodies are made perfect and immortal that life is to go on eternally.

 

[Katzpur]

We only mourn because life is cut short.

I disagree. I mourned when my 96-year-old mother died a year ago because I knew I would miss her.

Would you mourn for someone for died happy, satisfied they had done everything they could ever wish for?

I wouldn't mourne for that person, but I would still be sad because of my loss. Truly, I am happy for my mother that she is no longer living, but I still miss her. I guess that's God's fault. He made her too wonderful.

 

[Katzpur]

your cells are programmed to die

Well, then it is very much a health issue. Well, I just retired after 30 years as a programmer and I know that nothing gets programmed without a programmer. So again, if our cells are programmed to die, it's all God's fault.