• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Explain this logically christians....

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
but yet the saved are blessed...
i don't know about you, but that seems like the believers are giving themselves an undue degree of importance

Actually, no one's saying you can't be blessed too.

That would be like saying that my children, who will receive an inheritance, are the only ones who will receive an inheritance - and that I'm blessing them unfairly. As if by me giving them an inheritance, somehow other people get shorted.

Frankly, my walk of faith is not about you. It's about my relationship with and accountability to God. Whatever deal you and God have going is between the two of you.

Or maybe there is no God. In which case, I can't see how the strength I derive from my faith, however misplaced it may be, can possibly hurt you. So I haven't cratered under the weight of traumas and sorrows in my life because of my faith? How does that hurt you or anyone else? You choose not to tap into that faith for strength? Then that's your choice, and for all I know you're a stronger, better person than I am and you don't need faith to be strong.

I DO need my faith - it is a source of great strength for me. That's all I'm saying. And the man in the OP is a Christian too, so I would assume he holds some of the same general ideas about faith and God as I do, so if I shared the source of my strength with him, how would that do him harm?
 
Well, then it is very much a health issue. Well, I just retired after 30 years as a programmer and I know that nothing gets programmed without a programmer. So again, if our cells are programmed to die, it's all God's fault.

I would say that they ware programmed by natural selection. and comparing human made items with naturely formed ones in that way leads to logical flaws.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Actually, no one's saying you can't be blessed too.

That would be like saying that my children, who will receive an inheritance, are the only ones who will receive an inheritance - and that I'm blessing them unfairly. As if by me giving them an inheritance, somehow other people get shorted.

actually you are saying it.
you can be blessed too? read that statement to yourself.
you've already exulted yourself over me. when we are on the same level.
it implies you are blessed and i choose not to be. look's like the idea of a personal relationship with a supreme being feeds into narcissistic self importance, plain and simple...
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
actually you are saying it.
you can be blessed too? read that statement to yourself.
you've already exulted yourself over me. when we are on the same level.
it implies you are blessed and i choose not to be. look's like the idea of a personal relationship with a supreme being feeds into narcissistic self importance, plain and simple...

Wow, you and one or two others on this thread are trying SO HARD to "make me" say what I'm simply NOT saying.

You took my words out of context. Here is the REST of what I said:

Frankly, my walk of faith is not about you. It's about my relationship with and accountability to God. Whatever deal you and God have going is between the two of you.

Or maybe there is no God. In which case, I can't see how the strength I derive from my faith, however misplaced it may be, can possibly hurt you.
So I haven't cratered under the weight of traumas and sorrows in my life because of my faith? How does that hurt you or anyone else? You choose not to tap into that faith for strength? Then that's your choice, and for all I know you're a stronger, better person than I am and you don't need faith to be strong.

I DO need my faith - it is a source of great strength for me. That's all I'm saying.


Now - how you can say that I'm narcissistic or feeling self important based on that, is simply beyond me. I NEVER said that YOU must be "a child of God" and I certainly didn't "exult myself over you."

C'mon, man.

I think you WANT to think that Christians believe that. I think it fits into YOUR ideas and personal baggage about Christianity. And maybe some Christians DO think or believe that.

But I most certainly do not.

I didn't say anything about YOUR blessings being dependent on whether or not you have faith in God/Jesus. I said MY strength depends on my faith in God.

As I said already - you've got your own deal, your own soul, your own beliefs and life to work out. That's totally up to you. You don't need faith in God? OK.

I DO.

My faith, and the blessings in my life which I believe are a result of my faith, don't take anything away from you. They don't exalt me above you. They don't hurt you.

And based on my words, I can't see how you could possibly think that I think I'm superior to you. Frankly, this sounds like some sort of baggage you were carrying long before you and I had this conversation.

If you don't need faith, I'm certainly not saying you can't or won't be blessed without it.

I'm not talking about your faith or lack thereof. I'm talking about mine.

I am thrilled with the way God works in my life. I am excited about how He has guided me through some very rough times. I WILL share this with others, as the need or opportunity arises. I do so because I want to share this joy and these opportunities with others.

I don't offer unsolicited advice - I firmly believe that we generally have to earn the privilege of giving advice and having others actually listen to it. But if someone asks - I will answer. And if someone needs a leader, I will lead. I feel that I have the life experience under my belt to do so.
 

ninerbuff

godless wonder
If we're not supposed to die in an accident or due to health issues of some sort, it certainly is about living forever. Otherwise, when and how are we supposed to die?
You miss the point. The mother and child had NO IDEA that they were going to get hit and killed by a drunk driver. If that info had been divulged to the mother, don't you think that she may have taken another route? Or even delayed the trip till just a little later? Couldn't god have just sent her a sign?
Also if your argument is about dying when it's time, then should anyone in any accident or illness just reject any kind of life saving treatment because it's just extending the inevitable?
The logic behind god's calling then having to lean on faith on him is so ironic. Take away everything that meant the world to you, then just lean on him because he's narcissistic and NEEDS to have you love him.....yeah, no different than a jealous man killing off his rival to woo a woman that was in love with the rival.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Drunk driving is not part of God's Plan.
However we all suffer because of other peoples free will, in the same way they suffer from the bad things we do.
Such losses are tragic accidents caused by out of control people.

God will give those left behind the strength to bear the consequences.

As you get older you come to see how silly it is to blame God for these events. Though it must be admitted some denominations have very fatalistic beliefs and seem to think every thing is part of God's plan.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Depends, do you believe in free will?

I do, so we have the free will to act however we want to in this life. I really never understood this argument at all...
No, Dallas, the joke was more along the lines of the standard dismissal of the problem: "God helps those who help themselves". That addresses cases where people are in a position to help themselves but decide not to. It does not address cases where things are hopeless--the drowning man that God decided he would not send ships to. Not all bad things are caused by people behaving immorally or failing to help themselves when they can. Part of "God's Problem" with suffering is that suffering is so unevenly distributed in the world. There is no rhyme or reason to it.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Drunk driving is not part of God's Plan.
However we all suffer because of other peoples free will, in the same way they suffer from the bad things we do.
Such losses are tragic accidents caused by out of control people.

God will give those left behind the strength to bear the consequences.

As you get older you come to see how silly it is to blame God for these events. Though it must be admitted some denominations have very fatalistic beliefs and seem to think every thing is part of God's plan.
Your response is so much better than anything I could say to ninerbuff, so thank you for your post, Terry. The amount of time people who don't even believe in God spend trying to blame Him for everything bad that happens in this world is positively unbelievable!
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Drunk driving is not part of God's Plan.
However we all suffer because of other peoples free will, in the same way they suffer from the bad things we do.
Such losses are tragic accidents caused by out of control people.
How do you know what "God's plan" is? The argument is that God knew that the woman and her two children would be killed by a drunken driver, but the woman did not. Still, he chose not to intervene to prevent the deaths or the suffering of the survivors when he could easily have done so. That appears to be an act of depraved negligence on God's part. It certainly would be if a human had stood by and let such a tragedy occur. You are asked to explain what possible justification God could have. Saying that the drunk driver caused the accident is not even an issue here. If God did not like that, he could have sobered the man up, squashed him like a bug, or taken some other action to address that man's behavior. He did not need to let the innocent suffer.

God will give those left behind the strength to bear the consequences.
Except when he doesn't. And there are always exceptions--suicide, madness, despair. What of these victims? Does God have no compassion for them?

As you get older you come to see how silly it is to blame God for these events. Though it must be admitted some denominations have very fatalistic beliefs and seem to think every thing is part of God's plan.
They seem to think that because God's omniscience is said to include knowledge of all future events. Since God created everything in the full knowledge of all outcomes, it is reasonable to assume that his plan was for all outcomes to be as they turned out to be. It is unreasonable to assume that God had no role or responsibility for the bad things, except that it contradicts the idea that God is maximally benevolent towards humans. Judging from appearances, if God did exist, one would have to conclude that he was maximally indifferent.

Atheists do not blame God for the evil and suffering that occurs in the world. What they do is ask why Christians do not.
 
Last edited:

blackout

Violet.
Actually, no one's saying you can't be blessed too.

That would be like saying that my children, who will receive an inheritance, are the only ones who will receive an inheritance - and that I'm blessing them unfairly. As if by me giving them an inheritance, somehow other people get shorted.

Frankly, my walk of faith is not about you. It's about my relationship with and accountability to God. Whatever deal you and God have going is between the two of you.

Or maybe there is no God. In which case, I can't see how the strength I derive from my faith, however misplaced it may be, can possibly hurt you. So I haven't cratered under the weight of traumas and sorrows in my life because of my faith? How does that hurt you or anyone else? You choose not to tap into that faith for strength? Then that's your choice, and for all I know you're a stronger, better person than I am and you don't need faith to be strong.

I DO need my faith - it is a source of great strength for me. That's all I'm saying. And the man in the OP is a Christian too, so I would assume he holds some of the same general ideas about faith and God as I do, so if I shared the source of my strength with him, how would that do him harm?

Forgetting the rest of this thread,
not only is this post fair, reasonable, and well stated,
but it is one of honest insight.

Anyone who has problems with this post
is twisting, and misrepresenting it's (Kathryn's) meaning.

It was a gracious and unassuming attempt
at expressing her own experience.
(without passing judgement on the experiences of others)
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
How do you know what "God's plan" is? The argument is that God knew that the woman and her two children would be killed by a drunken driver, but the woman did not. Still, he chose not to intervene to prevent the deaths or the suffering of the survivors when he could easily have done so. That appears to be an act of depraved negligence on God's part. It certainly would be if a human had stood by and let such a tragedy occur. You are asked to explain what possible justification God could have. Saying that the drunk driver caused the accident is not even an issue here. If God did not like that, he could have sobered the man up, squashed him like a bug, or taken some other action to address that man's behaviour. He did not need to let the innocent suffer.

Except when he doesn't. And there are always exceptions--suicide, madness, despair. What of these victims? Does God have no compassion for them?

They seem to think that because God's omniscience is said to include knowledge of all future events. Since God created everything in the full knowledge of all outcomes, it is reasonable to assume that his plan was for all outcomes to be as they turned out to be. It is unreasonable to assume that God had no role or responsibility for the bad things, except that it contradicts the idea that God is maximally benevolent towards humans. Judging from appearances, if God did exist, one would have to conclude that he was maximally indifferent.

Atheists do not blame God for the evil and suffering that occurs in the world. What they do is ask why Christians do not.

I see that you are an atheist... and as such you display little if any concept of God as evidenced by your questions and replies.

God is not, and never will be, the guardian angel of fiction, who takes care of every detail of our lives for us. and protects us from our own and others decisions.

What he knows, and what he has as a plan, is a total mystery to us. He never has said that he will use his omnipotence and omniscience to nanny us. Neither is he at our beck and call.

The world is a living place, and as such can be a dangerous place. Earthquakes , floods ,storms and the like are necessary attributes of this living world. There are benefits to living in the more dangerous parts of the world, that are balanced by death and destruction. We chose of our own free will to live in such places; when certain calamity happens we suffer. This is the result of our own choices.

Modern times have brought new perils, Drunken drivers is only one of them. These things are the result of Mans own choices and inventions, they are freely made.

All men have the capability to be strengthened by God in these situations. Atheists and others, perhaps, deny themselves this opportunity, it is their choice.

When my wife died following an operation, I did not blame God. It was, it seems, beyond the skill of the surgeons to save her. After nearly seven years I still mourn her passing into God's presence.

When we mourn we do so for ourselves, it is a healing process. Faith in God and in his healing strength, certainly helps in this.

God is in no way to blame for our own choices and misfortunes. Rather than blame him, we should thank him for the opportunities and blessings we all share in this world. and his love and kindness we share with one another, during this moment in time represented by our lives.

When tragedy strikes, we should think about what we can do about the situation, and what help we can give to others... This is the true expression of God's love.
 
Last edited:

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
God is not, and never will be, the guardian angel of fiction, who takes care of every detail of our lives for us. and protects us from our own and others decisions.
So why is it claimed "God is loving?"

What he knows, and what he has as a plan, is a total mystery to us. He never has said that he will use his omnipotence and omniscience to nanny us. Neither is he at our beck and call.
So why pray to Him?

The world is a living place, and as such can be a dangerous place. Earthquakes , floods ,storms and the like are necessary attributes of this living world. There are benefits to living in the more dangerous parts of the world, that are balanced by death and destruction. We chose of our own free will to live in such places; when certain calamity happens we suffer. This is the result of our own choices.
We mostly don't choose to live in such places. For the majority of people, there is simply no alternative. You know all those illegal immigrants into the USA? Guess why they're moving.

Modern times have brought new perils, Drunken drivers is only one of them. These things are the result of Mans own choices and inventions, they are freely made.
Interesting that you brought up drunk drivers: "Choice" becomes even more ridiculous a proposition when mind-altering drugs become involved, especially drugs that break down your ability to make rational decisions. There is a very good reason it becomes illegal to give consent once you're sufficiently drunk.
All men have the capability to be strengthened by God in these situations. Atheists and others, perhaps, deny themselves this opportunity, it is their choice.
If something unfortunate happens to me, and it is part of God's plan, this implies that God does not care about me. Why would I look to Him for guidance, when He is obviously indifferent?
God is in no way to blame for our own choices and misfortunes. Rather than blame him, we should thank him for the opportunities and blessings we all share in this world. and his love and kindness we share with one another, during this moment in time represented by our lives.
No. Either God takes credit for both the opportunities and the disasters, or neither. The alternative is doublethink of the highest degree.
 
Last edited:

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I thought the point was that there would be no such situation. Maybe I'm confused.
No, that's what I was getting at.

A reasonably good person, when confronted with a situation that's a matter of life or death for someone, will step in to save the life of that someone, subject to things like ability to do what's needed and concern for his own life.

If God is as good as a reasonably good person (and most religious people I know say that God is much, much better than this), then he would do the same, wouldn't he?

However, since God wouldn't need to be concerned with limitations of his ability or threats to his safety, if God was as good as a reasonably good person, he would acheive much, much more than a human being.

I think that the implication of arguing that a good God would choose not to save the life of a person is that saving the life of that person is not a good act... but I haven't encountered a situation yet where I would say that a person's life is not worth saving.

Well, I see what you're saying, and that's not really what I was suggesting. ;) I don't believe life on earth was ever intended to go on forever. That's why it's referred to as "mortal" life. There is supposed to be a beginning and an end to it. We're supposed to have experiences that will enable us to develop strength of character, etc. and to help us learn to make wise choices. It is the time after the resurrection, when our bodies are made perfect and immortal that life is to go on eternally.

But if God is the one who both decided on this arrangement and is the one choosing to save people or not, then doesn't this just come down to God saying "I didn't save that person's life because I didn't want to"?
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
I see that you are an atheist... and as such you display little if any concept of God as evidenced by your questions and replies.
Terry, you know that there is no single concept of God. As an atheist, I see many inconsistencies among believers that you do not, because I believe that gods are a figment of human imagination.

God is not, and never will be, the guardian angel of fiction, who takes care of every detail of our lives for us. and protects us from our own and others decisions.
Nor does a parent do that (although some might wish to). However, parents would not stand by an watch their children suffer if they could lessen or prevent it. This isn't about God managing every aspect of our lives but about showing mercy and love, traits that the Christian God is supposed to have to a perfection. Moreover, you cannot deny that prayer is a big part of religious faith. That suggests that people believe God capable of, and willing to, intervene from time to time. Christians quite often see good luck as a reward for prayer and devotion.

What he knows, and what he has as a plan, is a total mystery to us. He never has said that he will use his omnipotence and omniscience to nanny us. Neither is he at our beck and call.
In your last post, you said "Drunk driving is not part of God's plan." Now you claim that his plan is "a total mystery". Do you not see an inconsistency here? The fact is that believers claim to know a lot about God until their knowledge is questioned. Then, suddenly, God is ineffable--beyond our understanding.

The world is a living place, and as such can be a dangerous place. Earthquakes , floods ,storms and the like are necessary attributes of this living world. There are benefits to living in the more dangerous parts of the world, that are balanced by death and destruction. We chose of our own free will to live in such places; when certain calamity happens we suffer. This is the result of our own choices.
This reasoning is so full of holes that it embarrasses swiss cheese. Most of us do all in our power to keep ourselves and our loved ones safe. We do not always have the choice to avoid calamities. Perhaps everyone who lives where there are hurricanes, earthquakes, tornadoes, and high crime rates should come to live where you are, but that is not a choice most of us have (thankfully for you). Victims of crimes and natural disasters quite seldom choose to be victimized, and there is nothing to prevent God from helping the innocent.

Modern times have brought new perils, Drunken drivers is only one of them. These things are the result of Mans own choices and inventions, they are freely made.
Nonsense. None of us were responsible for the existence of drunk drivers or even the phenomenon of alcohol when we were born. We do not choose to be hit by cars. Honestly. We don't. Moreover, you are not arguing that God is incapable of making things a little easier on us or that he is unaware of all the choices we will ever make. What you seem to be arguing is that he shouldn't be blamed for being aware of our suffering, capable of alleviating it, and unwilling to ease it. That is where the big disconnect is. How can any rational human being who believes in God not blame him for that?

All men have the capability to be strengthened by God in these situations. Atheists and others, perhaps, deny themselves this opportunity, it is their choice.
Obviously, all men (and women) do not have that capability, because some of them fail to be strengthened by God. I detect an undercurrent of disapproval on your part, since you portray such people as not choosing to be strengthened. Is it God's intention that people deserve to suffer because they do not have your level of belief and faith? Apparently so.

When my wife died following an operation, I did not blame God. It was, it seems, beyond the skill of the surgeons to save her. After nearly seven years I still mourn her passing into God's presence.
I'm very sorry to hear that. Such losses are terrible burdens for anyone to bear, and religious faith does give you at least a sense of companionship when you lose someone very close. But you bring up the downside of religion for some believers. Some will either blame God or despair that God is punishing them, because the argument I am using here is pretty powerful. Some people are driven to lose faith because of an inability to reconcile suffering in the world with the depiction of God as an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-merciful being.

When we mourn we do so for ourselves, it is a healing process. Faith in God and in his healing strength, certainly helps in this.
I agree that usually it is, but not always.

God is in no way to blame for our own choices and misfortunes. Rather than blame him, we should thank him for the opportunities and blessings we all share in this world. and his love and kindness we share with one another, during this moment in time represented by our lives.
I'm sorry, but I simply cannot understand how one can observe the amount of needless suffering in the world and not blame the kind of God that Christians describe. That you do not blame God is a given. That you ought not to blame God is not. To the extent that you can praise God, you judge him. If you can judge him good, then you can judge him bad. Love entails the judgment that the object of love is worthy.

When tragedy strikes, we should think about what we can do about the situation, and what help we can give to others... This is the true expression of God's love.
That is good advice for atheists, as well, but your final statement is a non-sequitur. And, I have to tell you that I wonder why God does not follow that advice as well. If I believed in the existence of such a being, I would think that he ought to think about what he can do to give help to others. Apparently, his help is not for everyone.
 
Last edited:

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
That is good advice for atheists, as well, but your final statement is a non-sequitur. And, I have to tell you that I wonder why God does not follow that advice as well. If I believed in the existence of such a being, I would think that he ought to think about what he can do to give help to others. Apparently, his help is not for everyone.
I think that's the main point where I have trouble with this line of thought as well.

While I can somewhat understand the mindset that says that God knows what's right better than we do, so we aren't in the best position to question his judgements, I can't see any way to simultaneously believe both that I have a moral duty to help a given person and that God doesn't.

IMO, the argument that a perfectly good God can be "hands off" is an argument that we should be "hands off" as well.

If we really do know right from wrong, then this is enough for us to condemn God as much as we condemn any able-bodied bystander who does nothing to help a person in need. If we don't know right from wrong but God does, then the right thing is to emulate God's actions... and not step in to stop suffering.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
God acts through people ...not by some form of magic.

Miracles are vanishingly rare. Though prayer can result in action, It is unlikely to be either in the form we expect, nor perhaps even recognisable. He answers all prayers in his own way.

When a Christian Prays , we are in communion with God... He listens and guides our thoughts.
God Knows our needs, There is no need to give a shopping lists of wants and desires, nor would it profit us to do so.

I do not disapprove of atheists or their lack of communion with God. God loves them anyway.

You seem to concentrate on the suffering in the world and not its blessings. It is true that some peoples lives are full of suffering and misfortune... But it is us that is doing the living, it is mainly us as humans that cause the greatest harm to others... it is also us who are the solution, it is us who can improve the lot of others. That is the lesson that Jesus taught.
he never said Pray to God and all your pain and suffering will go away. Even Jesus was to suffer the pain and torment from his fellow men.

True you can opt out, and blame God for everything... But you would be entirely wrong.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
A reasonably good person, when confronted with a situation that's a matter of life or death for someone, will step in to save the life of that someone, subject to things like ability to do what's needed and concern for his own life.

If God is as good as a reasonably good person (and most religious people I know say that God is much, much better than this), then he would do the same, wouldn't he?
Not necessarily. God's knowledge and understanding is so vastly superior to ours that I simply don't believe we are in a position to decide whether God is "reasonably good" or not. We are expected to act in the best interest of our fellow men, and to do what we can to keep harm from coming to others, but we must do so with a limited knowledge. God, on the other hand, sees things from a different perspective than we do. I believe there are many times when He does intervene, when a person's life is spared without that person ever even knowing that it happened. I don't know why God allows some people to live long, relatively trouble-free lives and permits others to live only a few short years, possibly in horrible conditions the entire time.

I will admit that I do get very frustrated even trying to explain how I feel when I am talking to an atheist (and you're one of the few I will even make an effort to discuss the matter with). Obviously, as I've already said, I believe that God is as good as a "reasonably good person." I also believe that He is millions of times more intelligent that the 100,000 most intelligent people who have ever lived, all rolled into one. Hypothetically speaking, if there is a God who created the billions of galaxies out there in the universe and all of the forms of life here on Earth, wouldn't it stand to reason that He knows what He's doing? He is not stupid and He is not incompetent. Atheists who argue that He is, nevertheless, cruel, are basing that assumption upon their own limited intelligence and understanding. If a person believes in God at all, he pretty much has to respect not only His power but His knowledge. If we can't explain His power, why should we be expected to explain His knowledge?

However, since God wouldn't need to be concerned with limitations of his ability or threats to his safety, if God was as good as a reasonably good person, he would acheive much, much more than a human being.

I think that the implication of arguing that a good God would choose not to save the life of a person is that saving the life of that person is not a good act... but I haven't encountered a situation yet where I would say that a person's life is not worth saving.
That's because you don't believe that there is a better life after this one. Maybe, when God lets a child die of starvation, it's to stop the suffering once and for all. If that child's spirit is suddenly released from a body that has known only suffering, but continues to exist outside of that body in a place of peace and rest, who are we to say that God was evil for not miraculously providing food for that child instead? When it gets right down to it, the phrase "saving a life" is really only relative. What is being "saved"? A mortal existance, not an eternal one.

But if God is the one who both decided on this arrangement and is the one choosing to save people or not, then doesn't this just come down to God saying "I didn't save that person's life because I didn't want to"?
Yes, it is. It's God saying, "I know what's best and it's best that this physical body die at this point. This person has learned what I knew he needed to learn when I sent him to Earth; he has had experiences and challenges that, while they have weakened his body, have strengthened his spirit. It is now time that he is received into an existance free of suffering."

I know that this isn't going to make an ounce of sense to anyone who doesn't believe in God. It's just not. And since there probably isn't a single thing I can add to make it more clear, I probably won't even try unless I can see that it might make a difference to somebody. I'm just not going to continue to debate for the sake of debating. It's pointless.
 
Last edited:

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
God acts through people ...not by some form of magic.
The methods that God is alleged to employ and magic are indistinguishable to me. They certainly are not natural methods that can be detected by scientific means.

Miracles are vanishingly rare. Though prayer can result in action, It is unlikely to be either in the form we expect, nor perhaps even recognisable. He answers all prayers in his own way.
He answers prayers in such a way as to make his existence questionable, and that in itself makes his existence questionable.

When a Christian Prays , we are in communion with God... He listens and guides our thoughts. God Knows our needs, There is no need to give a shopping lists of wants and desires, nor would it profit us to do so.
Given Christian descriptions of God's omniscience and omnipresence, I could not agree more with you. And that deepens the mystery as to why Christians nevertheless tend to supply him with large numbers of such lists anyway. Why try to communicate with God when there is no need to do so in the first place? It doesn't make logical sense, but I understand why people do it anyway.

I do not disapprove of atheists or their lack of communion with God. God loves them anyway.
I can understand your disapproval. I cannot understand why you think God loves us, except that that is part of your doctrine of beliefs. Christians used to torture and kill atheists, just as the Romans used to torture and kill Christians sometimes on the grounds that they were "atheists". It seems that atheists are always getting blamed for something, even when they aren't really atheists. :shrug:

You seem to concentrate on the suffering in the world and not its blessings. It is true that some peoples lives are full of suffering and misfortune... But it is us that is doing the living, it is mainly us as humans that cause the greatest harm to others... it is also us who are the solution, it is us who can improve the lot of others. That is the lesson that Jesus taught.
You accuse me of concentrating on suffering, but that is only because we are focused on it in this thread. We could discuss the good things in life here, too, but we aren't. We are talking about how believers reconcile belief in God's love with stark evidence of horrendous human suffering. And your insistence that all such suffering derives from human activity--despite repeated examples of cases where it clearly is not--suggests that you are not giving fair consideration to points being made here. We obviously do not cause all of our suffering, nor can we avoid all of it. Surely you recognize that. Jesus taught some good lessons. I'll be happy to concede that. But this idea that we are all sinners is the nasty side of Christianity. That message has been used to stoke the fires of hatred and prejudice. So, while I like a lot of the Christian message, it really turns sour when you get down to the reason for the crucifixion. Not everyone is a rapist, thief, or murderer, yet we all seem to get thrown into the same blame bucket by Christian doctrine. And that still doesn't tell us why so many good people have to endure intolerable suffering when God could easily prevent it. Saying that we do not understand why God permits it is an understatement.

he never said Pray to God and all your pain and suffering will go away. Even Jesus was to suffer the pain and torment from his fellow men.
Yes, I get that part. What I don't get is that you ignore the suffering that isn't caused by "fellow men", and you cannot provide any reasonable justification for why Jesus or any of us had to go through all of this. What logical justification could there be for it in the mind of a believer?

True you can opt out, and blame God for everything... But you would be entirely wrong.
I would not blame God for anything that I do not blame Bugs Bunny for. Sorry for the flip answer, but that is the truth. I do not blame fictional beings for their actions. If I believed in your God, then I would feel compelled to blame him, because I cannot provide a justification for his behavior any more than you can.
 
Last edited:

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Terry didn't say he disapproved. He said he does not disapprove.
Sorry, but I misread his statement. Thanks for the correction. I thought that he had written that he did not approve of us or our lack of communion with God but that God still loved us despite a natural (human) inclination to resent us.
 
Last edited:
Top