Explain this logically christians....

[james2ko]

James, this is a public debate forum, not simply a place to post opinions you've proven to yourself and have no interest in defending to others. The object is not necessarily to convince the person you are responding to, but also to reach a wider audience with your thoughts. If you feel that everyone who doesn't already agree with you is too stubborn to see reason, then you have wasted bandwidth by posting your opinions in the first place.

If it's that important to you, then stop being stubborn and agree...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I never implied death as the only effect of sin--there are many. I made my statement based on the context of the OP..

Right: there are many that God chooses between, ranging from no harm at all to the death of an entire family... and apparently, he makes this choice all the time and never without contravening our precious "free will".

Still, in this case, God chose the worst outcome even though many lesser outcomes were available to him. Why?

It wasn't a matter of "free will" of the drunk driver; I'm sure that if he had had his way, he would've gotten home without incident and without anyone else ever knowing that he drove drunk. The only "will" involved in the death of these people was God's... no?

 

[Copernicus]

If it's that important to you, then stop being stubborn and agree...

God should have made me less stubborn and you more convincing.

 

[blackout]

this ideal, i feel, needs to be addressed. if a christian say's i'm blessed they are speaking of being favored.
i feel it needs to be addressed because it perpetuated how faith undermines inner strength. instead faith takes the focus off of human capacity and puts it on this ideal of being divinely favored.
i saw a religious piece about a man who was born without arms or legs...
he asked god why, and god eventually answered, after several suicide attempts, "trust me". so now he's has this thriving ministry.
to me, when you are born into that circumstance, i wouldn't blame god for it, i blame chaos and randomness. there is no why. it just is. now you are either going to be a person that falls victim to it and blame god, or a person who actually sees that life is more than having arms and legs and you take it as it comes or you are going to attribute your legless and armless body as a blessing from god and use this "handicap" as a tool to bring faith to the faithless. i can't help but to see how this individual has undermined his sheer inner strength and dignity. he could never follow through with suicide because he knew how that would destroy his family and he knew that would mean giving up. this from a legless and armless boy who was so determined to skateboard as a child, and did. it was his resolve to conquer the challenges we think are nearly impossible to, being blessed is a wrong way of looking at it, we should see it as it is; valiant determination and inner strength and courage.

Perhaps this is how you would (validly) define 'blessing'?
Perhaps you don't choose the word at all.

We all define our lives.
We each define our own Words (and Worlds).

But I'm tired,
and there seems not to be so much tolerance
of/for Self Definition
(though we all do it).

I'm pretty sure Kathryn said
you could be 'blessed' (too) if you want.
Of course you would have to do that your way
(assuming you wanted to).

Perhaps you'd rather just attempt to reap 'good' results
from your valiant determination, inner strength, and courage.
And call it that.

 

[james2ko]

Right: there are many that God chooses between, ranging from no harm at all to the death of an entire family... and apparently, he makes this choice all the time and never without contravening our precious "free will".

The effects of sin are always harmful. Although not always immediately manifested.

Still, in this case, God chose the worst outcome even though many lesser outcomes were available to him. Why?

How do we know it was the worst outcome? Can we see the future? How foolish is our reasoning to God? What if God knew the wife and two daughters were going to be raped and tortured while the father helplessly watched? Only to become pregnant, probably go through an abortion and live with this horrific memory for a lifetime?

It wasn't a matter of "free will" of the drunk driver; I'm sure that if he had had his way, he would've gotten home without incident and without anyone else ever knowing that he drove drunk. The only "will" involved in the death of these people was God's... no?

You speak from a wrong premise as if God assisted the man into his car. God simply chose not to stop it. And yes, ultimately, it was God's will these folks were killed. How do we know this was not a test from God similar to the testing of Job? There are simply too many unanswered questions to this or any tragic circumstance to which we humans do not have the omniscent capacity to accurately judge.

If it is any consolation, God promises the wife and daughters will be resurrected--not in heaven but right here on earth.

 

[waitasec]

One full of automatons..

if i may,
he created angels...didn't he?
but seriously,
life is so much more than attributing our free will to god granting it. it's about doing what you can in this short amount of time and if you have the resolve to be one who contributes.
with faith; wishful thinking substitutes a search for truth.
accidents happen because of randomness and chaos.

You are essentially asking for God to remove the effects of human action--free moral agency--of free choice. You are asking God to allow man to continue breaking natural and spiritual laws--continue living the way that causes human misery. In short, you are asking God to abolish the effects of the penalty for sin which has been imputed on all of mankind--innocent and guilty alike, while leaving the sin itself.

don't forget faith has caused human misery and even perpetuated it, mother theresa, for example. she believed birth control was a form of murder, children were born into dire conditions with the chances of them dying before they reached their 5th birthday.
no there is no sin, just cause and effect in a world of chaos and randomness but to feed into misery in the name of religion is an act of terrorism.

 

[james2ko]

God should have made me less stubborn and you more convincing.

I agree. At times, I even have trouble convincing my wife to let me do the dishes. :help:

 

[waitasec]

Perhaps this is how you would (validly) define 'blessing'?
Perhaps you don't choose the word at all.

We all define our lives.
We each define our own Words (and Worlds).

But I'm tired,
and there seems not to be so much tolerance
of/for Self Definition
(though we all do it).

I'm pretty sure Kathryn said
you could be 'blessed' (too) if you want.
Of course you would have to do that your way
(assuming you wanted to).

Perhaps you'd rather just attempt to reap 'good' results
from your valiant determination, inner strength, and courage.

if i only could be...
this persons determination is a testament to the human capacity of inner goodness and strength and i believe faith in god seeks to undermine that very thing.

 

[blackout]

if i only could be...
this persons determination is a testament to the human capacity of inner goodness and strength and i believe faith in god seeks to undermine that very thing.

Well... some of us (like mySelf)...
see/define/understand Our Own Selves as god/s. soooo...
(determination... human capacity of inner______ and strength.... and all that...)



No matter what their vocabulary,
people who sit around 'waiting for life' (to come/bless them through others)
usually.... sit around waiting....

 

[waitasec]

Well... some of us (like mySelf)...
see/define/understand Our Own Selves as god/s. soooo...
(determination... human capacity of inner______ and strength.... and all that...)



No matter what their vocabulary,
people who sit around 'waiting for life' (to come/bless them through others)
usually.... sit around waiting....

couldn't agree with you more.
and that alone speaks about the capacity of the individuals resolve

 

[blackout]

couldn't agree with you more.
and that alone speaks about the capacity of the individuals resolve

Well, mine IS the 'religion' of the individual.

The Individual is god,
which explains why anyone and everyone
can be 'blessed' or not
by means of their own Self Definition.
(yes, even including individuals, who define themSelves as 'Christian')

*knows that almost every deeper implication of what she says... will be lost...*

 

[waitasec]

Well, mine IS the 'religion' of the individual.

The Individual is god,
which explains why anyone and everyone
can be 'blessed' or not
by means of their own Self Definition.
(yes, even including individuals, who define themSelves as 'Christian')

*knows that almost every deeper implication of what she says... will be lost...*

i agree with your philosophy.
i also think that christianity underlines the principle of the human condition is inclined to evil and only good can come from god.

 

[blackout]

i agree with your philosophy.
i also think that christianity underlines the principle of the human condition is inclined to evil and only good can come from god.

So many christians believe so many different things.

But alas, I am not a christian,
and am most likely derailing this thread.

Thanks, waitasec, for the worthwhile exchange though.

 

[james2ko]

if i may,he created angels...didn't he?

With free moral agency which they exercised.

but seriously,life is so much more than attributing our free will to god granting it. it's about doing what you can in this short amount of time and if you have the resolve to be one who contributes.with faith; wishful thinking substitutes a search for truth. accidents happen because of randomness and chaos.

There is some truth to this statement.

don't forget faith has caused human misery and even perpetuated it, mother theresa, for example. she believed birth control was a form of murder, children were born into dire conditions with the chances of them dying before they reached their 5th birthday. no there is no sin, just cause and effect in a world of chaos and randomness but to feed into misery in the name of religion is an act of terrorism.

Was faith also the cause of the dire conditions in which the children were born into?

 

[waitasec]

With free moral agency which they exercised.

it's funny how many interpretations i've heard from christian dogma...
there are those who would disagree.

Was faith also the cause of the dire conditions in which the children were born into?

i don't understand the reasons why these people live under these horrid conditions. from my limited knowledge it's political. however you have to admit faith didn't turn this situation around, it perpetuated it.
but reason and logic would say birth control would cut down on the amount of misery, wouldn't you say?

 

[waitasec]

So many christians believe so many different things.

But alas, I am not a christian,
and am most likely derailing this thread.

Thanks, waitasec, for the worthwhile exchange though.

actually your input only enriched the thread

happy new year

 

[idea]

So explain that if it was god's "plan" to take his family away, then why lean on god for support? How does that logically make sense?

It was not God's plan to take his family away...

 

[waitasec]

It was not God's plan to take his family away...

an example of circular logic...

lets not admit to the fact it was a random chaotic event...
unless you think that all the other drivers on the road were some how given divine favor for not being hit....

 

[Copernicus]

It was not God's plan to take his family away...

Is it possible that anything happens outside of God's control and without his foreknowledge? In other words, does God experience unpleasant surprises that he could do nothing to prevent? Did he not plan the universe to turn out the way it did?

 

[james2ko]

it's funny how many interpretations i've heard from christian dogma...there are those who would disagree.

We'll save this one for a future thread

i don't understand the reasons why these people live under these horrid conditions. from my limited knowledge it's political.

Then we definitely cannot rule out the fact that sin caused these conditions

however you have to admit faith didn't turn this situation around, it perpetuated it. but reason and logic would say birth control would cut down on the amount of misery, wouldn't you say?

Mother Teresa's intentions were sincere. But in my opinion, sincere-ly wrong.