Explain this logically christians....

[9-10ths_Penguin]

How do we know it was the worst outcome? Can we see the future? How foolish is our reasoning to God? What if God knew the wife and two daughters were going to be raped and tortured while the father helplessly watched? Only to become pregnant, probably go through an abortion and live with this horrific memory for a lifetime?

Are you seriously suggesting that this family is better off now that they've been killed?

You speak from a wrong premise as if God assisted the man into his car. God simply chose not to stop it. And yes, ultimately, it was God's will these folks were killed.

That was my point. The consequences of drunk driving range from minor to major; the difference between minor consequences and major consequences isn't one of denying human free will, because the question of which outcome occurs is not a question of free will.

Edit: therefore, saying that preventing the family from dying "denies free will" is an invalid argument.

How do we know this was not a test from God similar to the testing of Job?

Maybe it was, but since (IMO) the story of Job describes a deeply immoral God, I don't see how this helps your case.

If it is any consolation, God promises the wife and daughters will be resurrected--not in heaven but right here on earth.

He does?

 

[waitasec]

Mother Teresa's intentions were sincere. But in my opinion, sincere-ly wrong.

in another thread i wrote...
she was not a humble servant rather she was a cold blooded tyrant creating a system that sustained misery which exalted her as the ultimate servant.
that is an obvious undeniable act of hypocrisy which was laid out for the world to see but to those that are blinded by faith.
imho,

 

[idea]

Is it possible that anything happens outside of God's control and without his foreknowledge? In other words, does God experience unpleasant surprises that he could do nothing to prevent? Did he not plan the universe to turn out the way it did?

God knows the future, but does not cause it. There is a big difference between knowing something and causing it.

as for "making" the universe the way it is... from an old post...

...LDS do not believe in ex-Nihilo creation:

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 93:29)
Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

that "create" as used in the scriptures should be defined as - transform, mold, refine, purify, shape etc. etc. and not poof- make something out of nothing.

A few others agree...
example: http://www.ancient-h.../5_creator.html
"The English word "create" is an abstract word and a foriegn concept to the Hebrews."

another example: http://www.dailyglob...laims-academic/

For the oft asked question: "Why did God create evil?"

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.(Old Testament | Isaiah 45:7)

I always answer that God did not create evil, he transforms it - that 'bara' is better translated as transform, not create:

7 I form the light, and transform darkness: I make peace, and transform evil: I the LORD do all these things.(Old Testament | Isaiah 45:7)

That God is cleaning up a mess He did not create..... (our problems are not God's fault, we were not "created" imperfectly, as we were not created at all, so nothing bad can be blamed on God, because He did not create it)

Did not prevent it? God will not rape us of our free ageny, nor take away those experiences which refine us, test us, reveal who we are...

 

[waitasec]

God knows the future, but does not cause it. There is a big difference between knowing something and causing it.

as for "making" the universe the way it is... from an old post...



Did not prevent it? God will not rape us of our free ageny, nor take away those experiences which refine us, test us, reveal who we are...

another example of the purposeful suspension of critical thinking

 

[james2ko]

Are you seriously suggesting that this family is better off now that they've been killed?

No. But it is possible that it could have been much worse mentally and emotionally for the whole family had they lived through the hypothetical scenario I posted.

That was my point. The consequences of drunk driving range from minor to major; the difference between minor consequences and major consequences isn't one of denying human free will, because the question of which outcome occurs is not a question of free will. Edit: therefore, saying that preventing the family from dying "denies free will" is an invalid argument.

Really? Says who? Your human reasoning? I'll stick to God's reasoning...thank you very much...

Maybe it was, but since (IMO) the story of Job describes a deeply immoral God, I don't see how this helps your case.

It's all a matter of perspective.

He does?

Most definitely..We can debate it sometime...

 

[idea]

another example of the purposeful suspension of critical thinking

… another example of someone running away, denying God exists, claiming God is hypocritical, partaking in immature name-calling temper tantrums, etc. etc.

 

[waitasec]

another example of the purposeful suspension of critical thinking

… another example of someone running away, denying God exists, claiming God is hypocritical, partaking in immature name-calling temper tantrums, etc. etc.

thats a lie, i never called you any names while having a temper tantrum...

 

[PolyHedral]

It is immoral, under any useful definition of "immoral", to not exert trivial effort to prevent major harm. God has done just this on innumerable occasions. Why?

 

[waitasec]

idea,
do you really think that all the other drivers on the road were given divine favor for not being hit?

 

[waitasec]

It is immoral, under any useful definition of "immoral", to not exert trivial effort to prevent major harm. God has done just this on innumerable occasions. Why?

maybe we're ultimately at the mercy of indifferent chaos...

 

[PolyHedral]

maybe we're ultimately at the mercy of indifferent chaos...

Either God doesn't exist at all, or He isn't benevolant. That's the only way for that to make sense.

 

[Copernicus]

God knows the future, but does not cause it. There is a big difference between knowing something and causing it.

as for "making" the universe the way it is... from an old post...

If, unlike most Christians, you believe that God did not plan and create the universe as it has turned out to be (a position that should not be confused with ex nihilo doctrine), then surely you believe that God had foreknowledge of the tragedy described in the OP and the ability to "transform" that situation into good. The argument in this thread has been that God willfully allowed an innocent family to be victimized. Hence, God behaved with depraved indifference. If he is in control of everything, has foreknowledge of everything, and has any "plan" at all, then the death of that family was part of his plan, especially if his plan were to do nothing to prevent suffering.

Did not prevent it? God will not rape us of our free ageny, nor take away those experiences which refine us, test us, reveal who we are...

I see. Well, that still makes the event part of his "plan", doesn't it?

Do you think that it would help your spiritual awakening if he had some of your loved ones murdered? The fact is that God intervenes all the time in your view of religion, and his intervention is normally thought to be a good thing. The Bible is full of God meddling in the affairs of humans. Christians who narrowly escape death quite often feel compelled to thank God for his intervention on their behalf. But you seem to find it in the best interests of humanity that God not intervene to prevent death and suffering in this particular case. Now, perhaps you have some different idea of the Coming of Jesus or the immortality in an afterlife that Christian doctrines promise, but our lives are extremely short compared to eternity. So God will be "raping us of our free agency" for a very long time, won't he?

 

[waitasec]

Either God doesn't exist at all, or He isn't benevolant. That's the only way for that to make sense.

if he isn't benevolent, we're all doomed

oh and
happy new year!!!

 

[Pegg]

It is immoral, under any useful definition of "immoral", to not exert trivial effort to prevent major harm. God has done just this on innumerable occasions. Why?

it was immoral for mankind to choose to be independent of God too, but that didnt stop us

If we want God to be there to prevent us from hurting ourselves, we need to remain dependent on him...its that simple.

 

[waitasec]

it was immoral for mankind to choose to be independent of God too, but that didnt stop us

If we want God to be there to prevent us from hurting ourselves, we need to remain dependent on him...its that simple.

that doesn't work either...

we all have the capacity to do good and evil. lets be accountable to ourselves instead and stop making jesus the scapegoat. scapegoating doesn't solve anything, now does it?

 

[Pegg]

that doesn't work either...

we all have the capacity to do good and evil. lets be accountable to ourselves instead and stop making jesus the scapegoat. scapegoating doesn't solve anything, now does it?

im not sure how this fits with my reply to polyhedral, but ok whatever.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No. But it is possible that it could have been much worse mentally and emotionally for the whole family had they lived through the hypothetical scenario I posted.

Hmm. You say you're not suggesting it, but then you go right ahead and suggest it again. This seems strange.

Really? Says who? Your human reasoning? I'll stick to God's reasoning...thank you very much...

You're equating yourself with God now?

It's all a matter of perspective.

And I think it's a reasonable perspective to say that it's immoral to kill a man's family just to win a bet.

Most definitely..We can debate it sometime...

That's okay... I was just surprised by the universalist sentiment in what you said.

 

[james2ko]

Hmm. You say you're not suggesting it, but then you go right ahead and suggest it again. This seems strange.

Not any stranger than your attempt to twist what I said.

You're equating yourself with God now?

No more than you are...

And I think it's a reasonable perspective to say that it's immoral to kill a man's family just to win a bet.

Then change your perspective..

That's okay... I was just surprised by the universalist sentiment in what you said.

Haven't you learned by now? I'm just full of surprises

 

[idea]

... the ability to "transform" that situation into good.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God - Romans 8:28

the worst case scenario was that of Jesus, he suffered all the pain of all mankind - suffered rape, murder, loss of family, everything, all of it - and it turned out for good - he showed us his love for us, changed us, gives us life. If the worst case scenario (Jesus) can turn out for good, than anything can turn out for good.

God willfully allowed an innocent family to be victimized.

without the hard experiences of life, we would not have a full appreciation of what is good. A little rich boy who has always had $ does not appreciate his money... a little poor boy turned rich - they know what it is to be poor so they will appreciate the $...

take water - say you are sitting on the couch watching TV, someone hands you some water - you might not appreciate it, want some pop instead, just leave it sitting there - even if you drink it, it might not taste so good.... now say you just finished running a marathon, same glass of water, only now you appreciate it... it takes a little pain to open your eyes to the value of what is really around you.

When it gets dark enough, you can see the stars... don't you want to see the stars?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Not any stranger than your attempt to twist what I said.

So your hypothetical scenario was a red herring?

No more than you are...

No, I'm not trying to attribute any argument that I'm making to God.

Then change your perspective..

Really? :sarcastic

You think it's unreasonable to take the position that killing someone's family for a bet is wrong?

Does your assessment change if your family is the one under discussion?

Haven't you learned by now? I'm just full of surprises

So you're a universalist?