Explain this logically christians....

[james2ko]

So your hypothetical scenario was a red herring?

No. but your debating style most certainly is..

You think it's unreasonable to take the position that killing someone's family for a bet is wrong?

I think it's unreasonable that you are misconstruing the story of Job.

Does your assessment change if your family is the one under discussion?

I attempt to live by every word of God (Mat 4:4)....Did Job's perspective change?

So you're a universalist?

To be continued.....

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I see these two arguments as conflicted. To the extent that God "acts through" people, to that same extent God is responsible for the actions of people.

Your missing factor is "Free Will"
God acts through people when we allow him to.
We also act against his wishes.
There is no compulsion involved.

 

[PolyHedral]

Your missing factor is "Free Will"
God acts through people when we allow him to.
We also act against his wishes.
There is no compulsion involved.

Presumably you have never seen one of Derren Brown's acts.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Presumably you have never seen one of Derren Brown's acts.

I have never heard of Derren Brown.
Is he relevant as a substitute for God?

 

[PolyHedral]

I have never heard of Derren Brown.
Is he relevant as a substitute for God?

Er... yes?

He's a magician, and a supremely good one. However, he is quite relevant when you say that God acts through people only when they allow Him to, because Derren can act "through" you whether you want him to or not. For instance, he got a group of people to rob a van in broad daylight, with no instructions and no pressure.

And anything he can do, God can do better...

 

[micrurus]

Your missing factor is "Free Will"
God acts through people when we allow him to.
We also act against his wishes.
There is no compulsion involved.

there are so many problems with this theory.
but I will ignore them all and accept the fact that god can act through people.

this is a video of some one who claims that god instructed him to tell the world that evolution isn't true. he claims that god told him what really happond and here you have that explanation.

[youtube]aWm0GxVl1jw[/youtube]
YouTube - 091113 Ice on the Moon

God doesn't even know the physics that he created himself.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Your missing factor is "Free Will"
God acts through people when we allow him to.
We also act against his wishes.
There is no compulsion involved.

If there is no compulsion, then how can it be called God's act?

 

[openyourmind]

You keep asking why did god do this or that? So I ask you why did man do this or that? Can you tell me why a man drove drunk? You have a person you can walk up to and ask him why he did what he has done. And, if he gives you an answer will it be enough? If he tells you he is sorry and it was not his plan for anyone to get hurt. It hurts him so deeply and he will do what ever you need to make it up to you. Will you then forgive and accept him and allow him to help you? Or, will you chose to hate him forever and say I can't believe that he is sry he hurt me so much, he his stupid and foolish. He doesn't care about me or my family. Anyone that is his friend is stupid.
Do you believe the words that you have heard directly from the mouth of the person?
Do you believe the words that you have heard in your head?

 

[waitasec]

You keep asking why did god do this or that? So I ask you why did man do this or that? Can you tell me why a man drove drunk? You have a person you can walk up to and ask him why he did what he has done. And, if he gives you an answer will it be enough? If he tells you he is sorry and it was not his plan for anyone to get hurt. It hurts him so deeply and he will do what ever you need to make it up to you. Will you then forgive and accept him and allow him to help you? Or, will you chose to hate him forever and say I can't believe that he is sry he hurt me so much, he his stupid and foolish. He doesn't care about me or my family. Anyone that is his friend is stupid.
Do you believe the words that you have heard directly from the mouth of the person?
Do you believe the words that you have heard in your head?

no one is perfect...
we never claim to be perfect. god didn't implement human rights in the bible...big mistake, we were able to figure that out with our secular reasoning....
unless you subscribe to celestial tyranny...

 

[openyourmind]

I didn't say we were perfect. My question is do you believe anything you hear? Why chased what you don't believe instead of accepting that in which you do?

 

[Copernicus]

Your missing factor is "Free Will"
God acts through people when we allow him to.
We also act against his wishes.
There is no compulsion involved.

Terry, what on earth is wrong with compulsion in this case? I cannot imagine what your reasoning is here. The woman and children were not resisting God's will by being in the path of a drunk driver. Maybe the drunk was, but God has all sorts of ways of dealing with bad behavior that don't involve victimizing innocent parties. If the drunk's free will got compromised here, that would be a good thing. Indeed, that is why we put people in jail sometimes--to prevent them from harming others. Why does God get a plus mark in your book for doing nothing?

 

[james2ko]

Er... yes?

He's a magician, and a supremely good one. However, he is quite relevant when you say that God acts through people only when they allow Him to, because Derren can act "through" you whether you want him to or not. For instance, he got a group of people to rob a van in broad daylight, with no instructions and no pressure.

And anything he can do, God can do better...

So in essence what you are saying is that he can make me kill someone against my will with no instructions and no pressure?

 

[PolyHedral]

No. He can adjust your will so that killing someone sounds like a good idea.

 

[james2ko]

No. He can adjust your will so that killing someone sounds like a good idea.

That is called persuasion which does not suspend or remove the victim's free will. They still must choose!

 

[PolyHedral]

But God should logically be infinitely persuasive. Doesn't that make the concept of "free will" nonsensical?

 

[james2ko]

So we've established the fact that Mr Brown does not alter anyone's free will. He uses trickery and manipulative acts of persuasion to stack the odds in his favor but the person still must choose.

But God should logically be infinitely persuasive. Doesn't that make the concept of "free will" nonsensical?

Your perception of God is correct. I'll even take it a step further and say that God, on rare occassions, will temporarily suspend a humans free will to accomplish His sovereign purpose.

 

[PolyHedral]

He uses trickery and manipulative acts of persuasion to stack the odds in his favor but the person still must choose.

But there isn't a choice involved, because he can do it without his "subjects" realizing that there is any persuading going on at all.

Your perception of God is correct. I'll even take it a step further and say that God, on rare occassions, will temporarily suspend a humans free will to accomplish His sovereign purpose.

But it's absolutely impossible to distinguish when and whether He does that.

 

[bobhikes]

I like Kathryn replies best but as one other pointed out the christian way is not for everyone.

Realizing that this is true my understanding of christianity is as follows.

For a christian the world is much like purgatory, you are given challenges and rewards by the christian God. These are for you to prove your worth. They will not be so overcoming that you can not supass them. You goal is to love god and do his bidding so that you can spend enternity in heaven. The sooner you leave this world the faster you can make it to heaven but you are not allowed to leave until God says. Once in heaven all your burdens of the world are lifted. A child or person that leaves early does not have to endure as many trials as one who lives to 90. If they lived a good life they will be in heaven much sooner and forever. There death is only a negative because you are caught up in the moment, only seeing the results in this world. For a christian the only true happiness starts in the next world.

If you don't have faith in God this is hard to understand but then you are not christian.

 

[james2ko]

But there isn't a choice involved, because he can do it without his "subjects" realizing that there is any persuading going on at all. .

Of course there is. Even our human, fallible courts recognize it. If Derren makes you rob a bank and while on the witness stand you tell the court "Derren made me do it", you'll be laughed right into a long prison sentence or placed in the "fun" house.

But it's absolutely impossible to distinguish when and whether He does that.

I don't believe it's meant for us to know when but He does make it clear, through several biblical examples, that He--and only He--can temporarily suspended our free will in order to accomplish His will and purpose.

 

[PolyHedral]

Of course there is. Even our human, fallible courts recognize it. If Derren makes you rob a bank and while on the witness stand you tell the court "Derren made me do it", you'll be laughed right into a long prison sentence or placed in the "fun" house.

...Except if Derren is televising the whole thing. And nobody will plead "Derren made me do it", because of the kicker: nobody in the experiment would realise Derren had anything to do with it. If you don't know that Derren is deliberately messing with your head, it looks like your own, original idea.

I don't believe it's meant for us to know when but He does make it clear, through several biblical examples, that He--and only He--can temporarily suspended our free will in order to accomplish His will and purpose.

Derren can convince you to rob a bank, without you realizing it's anything except your own idea. How on earth is that not compromising your free will?