ninerbuff
godless wonder
Lol, bible scripture isn't proof for logic. People who use it for faith purposes adorn it as truth. Sorry, but don't buy it.
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Explain this logically christians....
- Thread starter ninerbuff
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Commoner
Headache
Jeeze, I go away for a couple of days and the thread grows out of proportions... Anyway, I took the liberty of trimming some of the quotes, otherwise this is going to become completely unmanageable. Hope you don't mind...
I always get a bad feeling when someone throws out a quote in an attempt to say something like: "See, you misunderstood my long and exhaustive argument, this is actually what I believe in." You know what I mean?
It's interesting that you would think, given my position, that I would agree with that sentiment. If I were in a position to, without any possible negative consequences to myself, prevent an "accident" like the one described in the OP and chose not to do so, I could hardly be described as "good" or to be working "for the good" of anyone in any sense of the word. So, I'm not buying it. Not to mention the "those who love him" nonsense. Just by the way, does that quote not conflict with, for example, Job's story? Or is that not one of your cherries?
Is that because they have a bad attitude and/or do not have faith? Or are there actual, objective reasons for some people's unhappiness/lack of joy/whatever you want to call it? You seem to be of an opinion that that simply does not exist.
Well now, I'm glad to hear you're agreeing with me. But did you not make it a point in your response to the OP to say that "ALL OF IT" (by which you meant the stuff that happened to you/your family) worked out for the best?
If the point wasn't to say that "it all works out for the best", what was it? You even went on to explain exactly how everything seemingly bad that happened resulted in things being better. I don't think I was putting words in your mouth, I think you've reconsidered your position.
Don't worry, be happy. Much easier, equally futile.
Look, please stop quoting scripture and saying: "this is what I believe." It leaves the impression that you don't really have a position of your own. Otherwise, I promise you I'll start quoting Al Bundy just to even the odds.
I've just deleted a lot of what I don't find to be in dispute. I agree, we work with what we've got. But really, the saying for a theist should go: "When God seems not to care about preventing disasters, praise him at least as hard as before."
Potato...Whatever, I'm pretty sure semantics isn't the source of our disagreement.
I can be a better person without such tragic events, I promise. You know, the whole idea of "getting tougher" and "growing as a person", it's on a different scale than what we're talking about. We don't cut soldiers' legs off to make them deal better with the potential loss of their limbs.
It's not about what "might have been". How do you ever evaluate if something is good or not. (good as in positive, desirable, tolerable, better than the alternative...). I mean, if that is really how you think about it how do you decide whether or not you should use the door instead of ramming your head through the wall? You can't know what the outcomes are going to be anyway.
Of course you can decide what the better option is. Of course you can say it would have been better had the drunken driver not caused an accident and your husband not defrauded the IRS. It has nothing to do with results, nothing to do with outcomes. Playing the lottery doesn't suddenly become a good choice just because you happened to have won some money. Having your fortune told doesn't stop being a scam if the fortune-teller happens to hit.
You can quite safely say that it would have been better had the fortune-teller not decided to scam people. You can say that it would have been better had the accident not happened. If you can't, then you can't say anything about anything without knowing the end result. You can't even say that walking through a door is preferable to ramming your head through the wall. You're just avoiding the answer.
Oh, no. The **** determines that as well.
If that's true, why do you prefer to live in a house rather than being homeless? Why do you take care not to cut yourself when chopping onions? Why do you earn an income? Why do you provide for your family - I'm assuming their happiness is also not dependent on an objective reality?
I think you have a very flawed way of thinking about this or a very flawed way of expressing what you mean. What I think you mean, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that those things do not (completely) determine your happiness. That you can be happy even if you don't have them and unhappy even if you have them. That's very different than saying it does not depend on them.
Give me a break. You can say things like that without blushing?
Why do you keep saying "this" life? Is there another life you know of?
Of course we can, K. I can ride a bicycle with no hands and I can eat without utensils. I don't understand why you're saying this.
Not in those terms. But you did, in response to the OP, present your argument that, for you, it did all work out for the best, so one would assume that implies that it at least might work out for the better for them as well. And I do think you probably would be of an opinion that they should be grateful - no matter what happens.
I always get a bad feeling when someone throws out a quote in an attempt to say something like: "See, you misunderstood my long and exhaustive argument, this is actually what I believe in." You know what I mean?
It's interesting that you would think, given my position, that I would agree with that sentiment. If I were in a position to, without any possible negative consequences to myself, prevent an "accident" like the one described in the OP and chose not to do so, I could hardly be described as "good" or to be working "for the good" of anyone in any sense of the word. So, I'm not buying it. Not to mention the "those who love him" nonsense. Just by the way, does that quote not conflict with, for example, Job's story? Or is that not one of your cherries?
Is that because they have a bad attitude and/or do not have faith? Or are there actual, objective reasons for some people's unhappiness/lack of joy/whatever you want to call it? You seem to be of an opinion that that simply does not exist.
Well now, I'm glad to hear you're agreeing with me. But did you not make it a point in your response to the OP to say that "ALL OF IT" (by which you meant the stuff that happened to you/your family) worked out for the best?
If the point wasn't to say that "it all works out for the best", what was it? You even went on to explain exactly how everything seemingly bad that happened resulted in things being better. I don't think I was putting words in your mouth, I think you've reconsidered your position.
Don't worry, be happy. Much easier, equally futile.
Look, please stop quoting scripture and saying: "this is what I believe." It leaves the impression that you don't really have a position of your own. Otherwise, I promise you I'll start quoting Al Bundy just to even the odds.
I've just deleted a lot of what I don't find to be in dispute. I agree, we work with what we've got. But really, the saying for a theist should go: "When God seems not to care about preventing disasters, praise him at least as hard as before."
Potato...Whatever, I'm pretty sure semantics isn't the source of our disagreement.
I can be a better person without such tragic events, I promise. You know, the whole idea of "getting tougher" and "growing as a person", it's on a different scale than what we're talking about. We don't cut soldiers' legs off to make them deal better with the potential loss of their limbs.
It's not about what "might have been". How do you ever evaluate if something is good or not. (good as in positive, desirable, tolerable, better than the alternative...). I mean, if that is really how you think about it how do you decide whether or not you should use the door instead of ramming your head through the wall? You can't know what the outcomes are going to be anyway.
Of course you can decide what the better option is. Of course you can say it would have been better had the drunken driver not caused an accident and your husband not defrauded the IRS. It has nothing to do with results, nothing to do with outcomes. Playing the lottery doesn't suddenly become a good choice just because you happened to have won some money. Having your fortune told doesn't stop being a scam if the fortune-teller happens to hit.
You can quite safely say that it would have been better had the fortune-teller not decided to scam people. You can say that it would have been better had the accident not happened. If you can't, then you can't say anything about anything without knowing the end result. You can't even say that walking through a door is preferable to ramming your head through the wall. You're just avoiding the answer.
Oh, no. The **** determines that as well.
If that's true, why do you prefer to live in a house rather than being homeless? Why do you take care not to cut yourself when chopping onions? Why do you earn an income? Why do you provide for your family - I'm assuming their happiness is also not dependent on an objective reality?
I think you have a very flawed way of thinking about this or a very flawed way of expressing what you mean. What I think you mean, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that those things do not (completely) determine your happiness. That you can be happy even if you don't have them and unhappy even if you have them. That's very different than saying it does not depend on them.
Give me a break. You can say things like that without blushing?
Why do you keep saying "this" life? Is there another life you know of?
Of course we can, K. I can ride a bicycle with no hands and I can eat without utensils. I don't understand why you're saying this.
Not in those terms. But you did, in response to the OP, present your argument that, for you, it did all work out for the best, so one would assume that implies that it at least might work out for the better for them as well. And I do think you probably would be of an opinion that they should be grateful - no matter what happens.
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Commoner
Headache
It's possible to get shot in the head only to have the bullet reveal an operable tumor and save your life. I don't understand why you're stressing the fact that actions/events sometimes have unlikely consequences.
Don you really not realize how that sounds? Surely, it does not work like that for everybody, no matter how hard you want to believe it.
That's certainly the impression one gets when you keep saying how "He" needed to teach you and things of that nature. I think you're trying very hard to say one thing and think another. I'm sorry if that's being unfair.
I'll ask you one final time. Do you think this is what happens to everyone, as long as they do and/or think the right things?
Your strength comes from someone else having a plan for you? Neat. I think it's a lot of empty words that one can use to comfort oneself, but should probably preface any outbursts of faith with the warning "possibly comforting/not necessarily accurate or factual" and perhaps refrain from utilizing them in debates.
No, those words are not for any time. They're not true.
But you keep saying things like that. He needed to teach you? How does that not imply it was for your own good?
So - since you're a theist - God's plan is to have us endure pain (either by causing it or not preventing it) so we will be more able to endure pain in the future and help others with the pain that will help them deal with more pain and... Is there a point to it other than that? I reject your premise that pain is inevitable, but even if it is that doesn't mean it makes us stronger as long as it doesn't kill us.
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waitasec
Veteran Member
then why do you focus man's imperfections when asking why?
do you believe in integrity and self dignity? if you do then you would see how the notion of knowing the mind of god is nonsensical. it's impossible.
Copernicus
Industrial Strength Linguist
Mohammed, that misses the point of the thread. We will all die at a specific time. Nobody here questions that. The question is whether there is any conceivable justification for an all-powerful, all-merciful God to permit suffering on the scale described in the OP. Non-believers do not need to explain such horrible suffering, because it is what you would expect if God did not exist. So the question addressed to believers is how one reconciles God with intolerable suffering--and not just the fact that some humans suffer horribly, but that the suffering is so unevenly distributed in the world. Most husbands or wives will never experience the sudden loss of their family.
So far believers have brought up the free will defense, which I have never found a coherent or satisfactory explanation for their God's failure to intervene. That God has some secret "plan" which we cannot really understand is another possibility, but not a more reasonable possibility than that God fails to intervene because he does not exist. Some have also made the reasonable point that faith in God can actually be a source of strength to help the victim alleviate and perhaps outgrow the suffering. From an atheistic perspective, however, one might use that argument to justify snake oil as a cure, since belief that it is a cure can sometimes stimulate an immune system to overcome cancer. The problem with that approach is that snake oil can ultimately cause more harm because there might be better alternative cures that are more likely to work than snake oil.
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
if I cause the death of your whole family, would you turn to me for comfort?
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Yes, I said that, and I think your hypersensitivity to religion is showing. You can be blessed, I can be blessed, the guy down the street can be blessed - hell, we can all be blessed, and I hope we all are. I didn't place any CONDITIONS on you being blessed. May blessings rain down upon you and yours! More than on me, even!
I don't think you are attacking me personally. All I think is that you are continuing to try to twist my words to say something that you seem very paranoid and defensive about - when I'm not saying it.
As for saying I'm blessed - I AM blessed. I'm not trying to brag, but honestly, I live a life of great comfort, opportunity, health, financial security, and joy - not to mention the love of my family - five healthy children and seven grandchildren. There is not a day that goes by that I am not grateful for every single wonderful part of my life. I've experienced tragedies and sorrows - true. But I still consider my life to be full to the brim with blessings, and frankly I know that I am no more deserving of them than many people who struggle and yearn and sweat and bleed for the same elements in their lives.
Then you haven't met me yet.
Honestly, where do you get this stuff? I never said that, nor implied it. Nor do I believe it.
OK, I believe you.
Did you really read my earlier post, outlining just ONE YEAR in my very eventful life? Not many people would be jealous of me after reading that. I don't want you to be jealous, for that matter.
Why can't you just allow me to express my great joy at the way my life has come together in SPITE of my former tragedies and heartaches(many of which I brought on myself)? Why this insistence that my life doesn't contain blessings along with the trials? Sorry, but I don't get your issue - is it with the word "blessing?" What else would you call a good spouse, a lovely home, a good job, loving children and grandchildren who think I'm fantastic (poor naive little things...)? I call those things "blessings." You can call them something else, I guess...
No - not in my book or experience. What I mean when I say that is that I may not deserve all the good things I have in my life - but in spite of my mistakes, or because of a combination of factors within and outside my control - good things are present in my life. They didn't all come from simply my hard work or determination (though some did). But amazingly - here they are! Not due to my merit or because I'm extra special - but in SPITE of my mistakes.
No. Because I am not making that claim. Therefore my statement that God has filled my life with blessings is really the OPPOSITE of a narcissistic attitude.
Look - I love my kids. Sometimes I give them presents or do favors for them which have absolutely NOTHING to do with their actions. They haven't done anything in particular to "earn" a particular gift - I just give it to them because I love them. In fact, sometimes when one of my kids is acting particularly gnarly and ornery, I will go out of my way to be NICER and sweeter and MORE generous with them because I sorta figure they need some extra attention or encouragement.
That's kind of how I feel God treats me sometimes.
Evandr
Stripling Warrior
Life is not about having everything your way. For God there is no death, only change and growth. Having to help someone through difficult times, even those you have to put them through yourself, is not an uncommon scenario, even among mortal man. I lost my beloved wife of 26 years two months ago to cancer and I will tell you one thing as an absolute fact; If not for the power of God reaching across the veil and comforting me as I so deeply mourn I would not be able to handle it nearly as well as I am. I find my greatest solace in prayer; I truly look forward to it for the spirit is strongest there. I trust that my Heavenly Father will instill in me some needed good and experience that I would otherwise not have had; that the day will come that I will again be at her side never again to be parted; I must simply endure to the end finishing the work that God has left for me to do. After all is said and done we will return to our Heavenly Father with the growth we experience in mortality and some of that growth must be born of sorrow.
waitasec
Veteran Member
Yes, I said that, and I think your hypersensitivity to religion is showing. You can be blessed, I can be blessed, the guy down the street can be blessed - hell, we can all be blessed, and I hope we all are. I didn't place any CONDITIONS on you being blessed. May blessings rain down upon you and yours! More than on me, even!
I don't think you are attacking me personally. All I think is that you are continuing to try to twist my words to say something that you seem very paranoid and defensive about - when I'm not saying it.
As for saying I'm blessed - I AM blessed. I'm not trying to brag, but honestly, I live a life of great comfort, opportunity, health, financial security, and joy - not to mention the love of my family - five healthy children and seven grandchildren. There is not a day that goes by that I am not grateful for every single wonderful part of my life. I've experienced tragedies and sorrows - true. But I still consider my life to be full to the brim with blessings, and frankly I know that I am no more deserving of them than many people who struggle and yearn and sweat and bleed for the same elements in their lives.
Then you haven't met me yet.
Honestly, where do you get this stuff? I never said that, nor implied it. Nor do I believe it.
OK, I believe you.
Did you really read my earlier post, outlining just ONE YEAR in my very eventful life? Not many people would be jealous of me after reading that. I don't want you to be jealous, for that matter.
Why can't you just allow me to express my great joy at the way my life has come together in SPITE of my former tragedies and heartaches(many of which I brought on myself)? Why this insistence that my life doesn't contain blessings along with the trials? Sorry, but I don't get your issue - is it with the word "blessing?" What else would you call a good spouse, a lovely home, a good job, loving children and grandchildren who think I'm fantastic (poor naive little things...)? I call those things "blessings." You can call them something else, I guess...
No - not in my book or experience. What I mean when I say that is that I may not deserve all the good things I have in my life - but in spite of my mistakes, or because of a combination of factors within and outside my control - good things are present in my life. They didn't all come from simply my hard work or determination (though some did). But amazingly - here they are! Not due to my merit or because I'm extra special - but in SPITE of my mistakes.
No. Because I am not making that claim. Therefore my statement that God has filled my life with blessings is really the OPPOSITE of a narcissistic attitude.
Look - I love my kids. Sometimes I give them presents or do favors for them which have absolutely NOTHING to do with their actions. They haven't done anything in particular to "earn" a particular gift - I just give it to them because I love them. In fact, sometimes when one of my kids is acting particularly gnarly and ornery, I will go out of my way to be NICER and sweeter and MORE generous with them because I sorta figure they need some extra attention or encouragement.
That's kind of how I feel God treats me sometimes.
to be honest kathryn, it's hard to stay focused on the issue with a responce like that
i've read what commoner had to say and quite frankly it's pretty brutal but an honest and pretty well thought out argument.
you're right in a way, i guess my problem is the word blessed, i personally like to use lucky because it has no ties to divine favor and it falls into my line of thinking that we are ultimately subjected to life's indifference
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
he has intervened and will do so again. In the ancient past he sent Enoch to people, then he sent Noah, he also sent Moses, then came Jesus... God has been intervening all along, people just fail to respond to him.
2Peter 2:4-6 Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tar′ta‧rus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment; 5 and he did not hold back from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a deluge upon a world of ungodly people; 6 and by reducing the cities Sod′om and Go‧mor′rah to ashes he condemned them, setting a pattern for ungodly persons of things to come"
Gods plan is no secret...he's been telling mankind for a very long time.
536BCE - Daniel 2:44 The God of heaven will set up a kingdom...it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms and it itself will stand to times indefinite"
29CE - Matthew 4:17 “Repent, you people, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.”
Now - Matthew 24:14 “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come”
Future - Rev. 21:1-4 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: ‘Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.'
He's been talking but people have not been listening.
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waitasec
Veteran Member
i have a really hard time understanding how anyone can believe this...
how can you possibly know?
can you see that we are limited by our own senses to fully grasp what is out there much less understanding the mind of a supreme first cause? its as if you are saying it is possible for a worm to understand it's importance in my life...i'm sorry, and i hope you don't take this personally, this is nothing but puffed up horse puckey...
a mans entire family died a needless death and somehow it's all in gods plan? how do you know this? through ancient writings written when people were ignorant of science?
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
i never said that the families death was a part of Gods plan. Nor do I believe that to be the case. I wasnt actually thinking of the opening post when i replied to copernicus.
waitasec
Veteran Member
oh i see, you just ignored the 1st part of the post...here this is what he said and why i responded the way i did...
Copernicus
Industrial Strength Linguist
Pegg, I was talking about God's failure to intervene in the tragedy described in the OP. I am well aware of claims by believers that their gods have intervened in the past. It is not mystery to any atheist why God always intervenes in ways that are consistent with his non-existence. He might have a good reason for being coy with humans, but nobody seems to have a coherent idea about what that reason could be. The best argument seems to be that his presence would deprive us of our freedom to disobey him, which makes no sense at all, especially in light of the fact that most believers seem to want to spend eternity in God's presence, which means an eternity of being deprived of free will.
If an omnipotent being wanted to be heard, that being would be heard. It is fair to conclude that, if an omnipotent being is not heard, then it does not want to be heard. By definition, nothing can oppose the will of an omnipotent being.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
i did post in this thread way back at the beginning somewhere... 'time and unforeseen occurrences befall them all' is the scripture i posted. IOW, in a world which is not governed by God, tragic accidents happen to all of us. Our world is independent of God... i find it strange that when something bad happens, we blame God for not helping, but in the same breath demand our independence from him and his governance.
we cant' have it both ways and sadly for the time being we are completely independent and it is up to us to help ourselves.
nothing can oppose his will? I beg to differ. We have proven that we can oppose his will because we do it every day. The reason why we can oppose his will is because he has granted us choice, or free will.
but just because we have free will does not mean that he is not omnipotent either...he is omnipotent but he can also restrain how he exercises his power. When he does excersize his power, it will be for the benefit of all...including all who have lost their lives in this alienated world.
Evandr
Stripling Warrior
Suffering is a relative term that is defined by what we have experienced or what we perceive that others are experiencing. When I was a child I remember vividly getting inoculated as real suffering and you might have thought so by all the weeping and wailing that was going on in the clinic at the time. I am quite sure that many of these kids looked to the adults standing by with needles in their hands and sympathetic smiles on their faces as a bunch of uncaring fiends who delighted in their suffering. Of course now that I am in the place of the parents with sufficient knowledge to understand about what was going on and that the benefits far outweighed the momentary discomfort, my attitude has changed dramatically about those who looked on as we "suffered" as little children.
This entire world with its diverse situations and social strata can be seen by you and me and all mankind the same way that that clinic must have been seen by those children. Sure, the suffering is more intense, even unto death, but I believe that God is influencing things (without interfearing with our free agency) as He knows best and that someday every man and woman will be able to look back and see the wisdom in it all.
One more thing; do not ascribe all suffering as something caused by God for it is not so. Mankind causes the lions share of suffering (if not all) through the many and diverse methods of ways he uses his free agency to muck things up. Our Heavenly Father lets things happen because He knows we need the experience but for me and millions of others who seek Him out in their time of sorrow (and at all other times as well) He is always there doing what He can without denying us the blessing of doing for ourselves what we must do for ourselves; after all, this mortal probation is a time of trial and testing.
Here is a piece of trivia for you. Did you know that one of the quickest and most pain free ways to die is by a sharp sword properly used. God has been known to, in rare cases, command His people to fall on others and destroy them but I think that the level of actual suffering we ascribe to such a scene is exaggerated. Sure, there is death and bloodshed, fear and pain but nothing like you might find in the torture chambers of some cultures. God has never indicated in any way that He delights in the pain and suffering of His children nor has he ever commanded more than was necessary to accomplish His purposes, wouldnt it be great if the same could be said of mankind. Mans inhumanity to man is the real crime on this earth. Remember, for God there is no death, only change. In the wake of mankinds foolish and cruel use of his free agency God is still able to orchestrate things for the best good of all. The sad part is, many, in their ignorance of the true width and breadth of what is happening, choose to size things up with their own totally inadequate intellect and feeble understanding and then proceed to accuse God or deny His very existance.
This entire world with its diverse situations and social strata can be seen by you and me and all mankind the same way that that clinic must have been seen by those children. Sure, the suffering is more intense, even unto death, but I believe that God is influencing things (without interfearing with our free agency) as He knows best and that someday every man and woman will be able to look back and see the wisdom in it all.
One more thing; do not ascribe all suffering as something caused by God for it is not so. Mankind causes the lions share of suffering (if not all) through the many and diverse methods of ways he uses his free agency to muck things up. Our Heavenly Father lets things happen because He knows we need the experience but for me and millions of others who seek Him out in their time of sorrow (and at all other times as well) He is always there doing what He can without denying us the blessing of doing for ourselves what we must do for ourselves; after all, this mortal probation is a time of trial and testing.
Here is a piece of trivia for you. Did you know that one of the quickest and most pain free ways to die is by a sharp sword properly used. God has been known to, in rare cases, command His people to fall on others and destroy them but I think that the level of actual suffering we ascribe to such a scene is exaggerated. Sure, there is death and bloodshed, fear and pain but nothing like you might find in the torture chambers of some cultures. God has never indicated in any way that He delights in the pain and suffering of His children nor has he ever commanded more than was necessary to accomplish His purposes, wouldnt it be great if the same could be said of mankind. Mans inhumanity to man is the real crime on this earth. Remember, for God there is no death, only change. In the wake of mankinds foolish and cruel use of his free agency God is still able to orchestrate things for the best good of all. The sad part is, many, in their ignorance of the true width and breadth of what is happening, choose to size things up with their own totally inadequate intellect and feeble understanding and then proceed to accuse God or deny His very existance.
There is a reason why God permits suffering. But to understand it fully you have to think back to the time when suffering began. When Satan led Adam and Eve into disobeying Jehovah God and important question was raised. Satan did not call into question Jehovah's "power". Even Satan knows there is no limit to Jehovah's power. Rather, Satan quetioned Jehovah's "right to rule". By calling God a liar who withholds good from his subjects, Satan charged that Jehovah is a bad ruler. (account found at Genesis 3:2-5). Satan implied that mankind would be better off without God's rulership. This was an attack on Jehovah's "Sovereignty", his right to rule. Adam and Eve rebelled against Jehovah. In effect they said: "We don't need Jehovah as our ruler. We can decide for ourselves what is right and what is wrong". How could Jehovah settle this issue? How could he teach all intelligent creatures (including his angels who were eye witnesses of what had happened) that the rebels were wrong and that his way truly is best? Some say that God should have simply destroyed the rebels and made a fresh start. But Jehovah had stated his purpose of filling the earth with the offspring of Adam & Eve, and he wanted them to live in an eartly paradise (found at Genesis 1:28). Jehovah "always" fulfills his purpose as Isiah 55:10,11 says. Getting rid of the rebels in eden would not have answered the question regarding his right to rule. That is why Jehovah allowed Satan to show how he would rule mankind. God has also allowed humans to govern themselves under Satan's guidance. The rusults of Satan's rule are all around us today......
waitasec
Veteran Member
oh i see, so if your wife and children were killed you'd be fine with it?
so god had a purpose for this to happen, and you know this how?
ahh, who's blaming god here?
the most sensible thing said thus far
i'm sure for this man there's a lesson to be learned for loosing his entire family...
so are you saying it's ok to commit horrendous acts against you fellow man because god tells you there is a purpose? hmmm, maybe in your eyes 9/11 had a purpose...
waitasec
Veteran Member
in other words you ascribe to celestial dictatorship....
oh i see and by causing needless pain and suffering for the following generations somehow makes sense to you?
i guess free will doesn't work too well in a dictatorship.
you are really attracted to the tyrannical aspect of a celestial dictatorship, aren't you?