Explain this logically christians....

[ninerbuff]

So how would a christian react if:

If you had a fire happen in your home, and your children and spouse were in the house asleep, and your close friend KNEW it was happening, but neglected calling the fire department thereby causing the death of your family............yet you could actually "lean" on this person for comfort knowing full well had that person called the fire department, chances are high that your family would have lived? In relationship to a god why would this be any different?

 

[shoinan]

So how would a christian react if:

If you had a fire happen in your home, and your children and spouse were in the house asleep, and your close friend KNEW it was happening, but neglected calling the fire department thereby causing the death of your family............yet you could actually "lean" on this person for comfort knowing full well had that person called the fire department, chances are high that your family would have lived? In relationship to a god why would this be any different?

The thing is, if you believe in the all-powerful biblical god (everything goes according to the god's will) it's even worse. Not only could the close friend have prevented the fire from happening, but he actually orchestrated it - albeit indirectly (through others). Oh yeah, don't forget: the friend demands you worship him and don't you dare challenge him on his actions.

That's some friend right there.

 

[Copernicus]

i did post in this thread way back at the beginning somewhere... 'time and unforeseen occurrences befall them all' is the scripture i posted. IOW, in a world which is not governed by God, tragic accidents happen to all of us. Our world is independent of God... i find it strange that when something bad happens, we blame God for not helping, but in the same breath demand our independence from him and his governance.

Pegg, you post, but you do not acknowledge the logical limitations on omnipotence and omniscience. Until you do, it is impossible for us to have a conversation. What are those limitations? Well, we know that God cannot create an object too heavy for him to lift. (Most, but not all, theists acknowledge the inability of God to circumvent logical contradictions.) Here are two further logical conditions on beings such as God:

1. An omnipotent being cannot make itself impotent and remain omnipotent.
2. An omniscient being cannot become ignorant and remain omniscient.

So the logical conundrum that you get yourself in is you want to portray God as being both omnipotent and impotent. He can do anything he wants, but he cannot "govern our world". :areyoucra

I know that you believe God can choose not to govern our world, but really, he can't. The reason he can't is that that would cancel his omnipotence. You must know this somewhere deep down inside your mind, but you have managed to fix it so that you cannot acknowledge the contradiction. I feel that I can do nothing to help you.

we cant' have it both ways and sadly for the time being we are completely independent and it is up to us to help ourselves.

But you are having it both ways. You get an omnipotent God that has no control over our actions. That is having it both ways.

nothing can oppose his will? I beg to differ. We have proven that we can oppose his will because we do it every day. The reason why we can oppose his will is because he has granted us choice, or free will.

Again, that would be logically impossible, and I don't think for a second that you believe what you are saying. Limited beings like ourselves can choose not to interfere with the actions of others, but God, by definition, is not a limited being. He cannot logically limit his powers and still be an unlimited being. This is really a matter of pure logic. Your position is inconsistent.

but just because we have free will does not mean that he is not omnipotent either...he is omnipotent but he can also restrain how he exercises his power. When he does excersize his power, it will be for the benefit of all...including all who have lost their lives in this alienated world.

Doing nothing does not mean that you have limited your power or control. It is a choice to do nothing. You keep ignoring the point, no matter how many times it is explained patiently and clearly in this thread. If God were unable to intervene, then he would have an excuse for permitting the kind of suffering that we observe in the world. But we cannot grant him that excuse, because he cannot logically relinquish control of his creation and still have control of it.

 

[Pegg]

Pegg, you post, but you do not acknowledge the logical limitations on omnipotence and omniscience. Until you do, it is impossible for us to have a conversation. What are those limitations? Well, we know that God cannot create an object too heavy for him to lift. (Most, but not all, theists acknowledge the inability of God to circumvent logical contradictions.) Here are two further logical conditions on beings such as God:

1. An omnipotent being cannot make itself impotent and remain omnipotent.
2. An omniscient being cannot become ignorant and remain omniscient.

foolish philosophies are being applied to God and its these sorts of twisted reasonings which cause confusion. God is all powerful, power is one of his attributes, the fact that he doesnt wield it without limits does not mean that he is a contradiction and therefore somehow must not exist. The contradiction comes from mans reasoning and lack of understanding.

The idea of Gods omniscience comes from the predestinarian philosophy, that God’s exercise of his foreknowledge is infinite... but the fact is that he does not use it in such a way so as to see every detail of the future. This philosophy does not harmonize with the Scriptural presentation of God’s qualities, standards, and purposes, as well as the ways he has dealt with mankind.
So the ideas of omnipotence and omniscience that you are presenting here is nothing more then an empty speculation not based on the facts.

So the logical conundrum that you get yourself in is you want to portray God as being both omnipotent and impotent. He can do anything he wants, but he cannot "govern our world". :areyoucra

there is no logical conundrum when you see God as the way he is presented in the bible.
Also when you realise that it is a fact that God is not governing our world, that our world has been disconnected from God, then we can hardly blame him for our failure to make this world a place without pain and suffering.

I know that you believe God can choose not to govern our world, but really, he can't. The reason he can't is that that would cancel his omnipotence. You must know this somewhere deep down inside your mind, but you have managed to fix it so that you cannot acknowledge the contradiction. I feel that I can do nothing to help you.

Of course he can and he has and that is exactly how the bible explains the situation. It quiet clearly shows us that the god of this world is Satan the devil...not Jehovah.

But fortunately the bible also explains that this situation will not remain indefinitely.

But you are having it both ways. You get an omnipotent God that has no control over our actions. That is having it both ways.

As I said, the bible explains to us the reason why God would hold back his power.

“Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.” 2 PETER 3:9.

He is not a despot who wields his power uncontrollably. He is a God who's power is governed by ALL his qualities....he perfectly balances his power with love, mercy, patience, justice, goodness... and his wisdom also comes into play.

There is also another aspect that should be considered. Gods view of time is different to ours. We think that 6,000 years is a very long time in human terms... but to him it is only 6 days.
2Peter 3:8 However, let this one fact not be escaping YOUR notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day

 

[waitasec]

[/LIST]
foolish philosophies are being applied to God and its these sorts of twisted reasonings which cause confusion. God is all powerful, power is one of his attributes, the fact that he doesnt wield it without limits does not mean that he is a contradiction and therefore somehow must not exist. The contradiction comes from mans reasoning and lack of understanding.

and you know this how?
the bible has put labels on this thing you profess to be an all powerful benevolent deity...
once one puts labels, one puts limitations. why would you want to do that?
i am making a counter argument within the confines of a limited definition of gods attributes only to show how logic and reason cannot reconcile this superstition.
there is contradiction because of our logic and reasoning...
your ability and capacity to reason is no higher than mine and i don't think that is what you are implying, but it is what you are saying nonetheless.
so i ask again, how can you know these things? does revelation cause people to feel superior or humble?
for instance, if you are looking through a peep hole and you expect that what you see is small enough to fit into you limited capacity, i would call that arrogance. a humble person would look through that same peep hole and recognize how small they are. why limit yourself?

 

[Kathryn]

to be honest kathryn, it's hard to stay focused on the issue with a responce like that

Not sure what you mean by that - I thought you were asking questions or posing challenges to my position and I answered your questions and challenges. Threads meander - but you sure did seem irate about the usage of the word "blessed" as if it carried some sort of personal slam against non Christians so I wanted to be sure to clarify that my usage of that word is not limited to situations among Christians. Anyone can be blessed.

i've read what commoner had to say and quite frankly it's pretty brutal but an honest and pretty well thought out argument.

Yep, I read his posts as well, and I don't agree with his particular take, but I'll address his arguments with him, and yours with you if that's OK.

you're right in a way, i guess my problem is the word blessed, i personally like to use lucky because it has no ties to divine favor and it falls into my line of thinking that we are ultimately subjected to life's indifference

Fair enough - you say tomatoes, I say to MAH toes, let's call the whole thing off! :run:

 

[Kathryn]

So how would a christian react if:

If you had a fire happen in your home, and your children and spouse were in the house asleep, and your close friend KNEW it was happening, but neglected calling the fire department thereby causing the death of your family............yet you could actually "lean" on this person for comfort knowing full well had that person called the fire department, chances are high that your family would have lived? In relationship to a god why would this be any different?

This is an impossible hypothetical situation, and therefore an impossible question to answer, because as far as I know, none of my friends are the Alpha and Omega Almighty and omnipotent Supreme Being.

Though some of them seem to think they are - but that's a whole other story.

 

[waitasec]

Not sure what you mean by that - I thought you were asking questions or posing challenges to my position and I answered your questions and challenges. Threads meander - but you sure did seem irate about the usage of the word "blessed" as if it carried some sort of personal slam against non Christians so I wanted to be sure to clarify that my usage of that word is not limited to situations among Christians. Anyone can be blessed.

well for me it's about the fine line between the message and the messenger, i thought i was crossing it

Yep, I read his posts as well, and I don't agree with his particular take, but I'll address his arguments with him, and yours with you if that's OK.

fair enough

Fair enough - you say tomatoes, I say to MAH toes, let's call the whole thing off! :run:

hold on for one more second,
blessed and luck are 2 very different understandings of ones circumstances
you may say tomato but i say it's steak

 

[Pegg]

and you know this how?

because the reasoning that is being put forth does not take everything we are told about God into account.
They are looking at one of Gods qualities, Power, and saying that if he is all powerful then he is not using it therefore he must not have it or if he does he must not be interested in using it.

The fact is that God has other qualities that temper how he uses his power. He has love...this prevents him from using his power cruely. He has justice, this prevents him from using his power unjustly. He has patience, this prevents him from using his power too quickly. He has wisdom, this prevents him from using his power without forethought.
Unlike us, all of Gods qualities are in perfect harmony and are well balanced and when he acts, he uses ALL of them together. The accounts in the bible is what gives us this information...how he has dealt with people in the past, he he dealt with enemies and how he dealt with the Isrealites shows us exactly how all his qualities come into play.

the bible has put labels on this thing you profess to be an all powerful benevolent deity...
once one puts labels, one puts limitations.

actually, it is man who does this.
The expressions omnipotent & omniscient are not found in the bible. Man has taken the term 'All powerful' and created the term 'omnipotent' and have put their own meaning to it without considering HOW God uses his power.

i am making a counter argument within the confines of a limited definition of gods attributes

and therein lies your problem.
If you know you only have a limited definition of Gods attributes, why dont you attempt to widen you understanding of his attributes?

this is not impossible to do...he has provided us with all the information we need.

your ability and capacity to reason is no higher than mine and i don't think that is what you are implying, but it is what you are saying nonetheless. ...so i ask again, how can you know these things? does revelation cause people to feel superior or humble?

You are correct, my ability to reason is no higher then yours and i often make errors in judgment and i can say some pretty stupid things at times. So there has to be some other reason why one person reads the bible and understands and another does not. The source of your information could be a problem, as could ones own attitude to what you are reading and the purpose of why you are reading it.

If you attempt to read it for the purpose of belittling God, then he will not allow you to see what is in it....i believe you need to have the right attitude. Jesus showed that in his day some were given insight but others were not
Matthew 1:25 “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes.”
Basically, if we think we are intellectuals, then God will prove us otherwise.
Paul explains this well in 1 Corinthians 1:27-29
"but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put the wise men to shame; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put the strong things to shame; 28 and God chose the ignoble things of the world and the things looked down upon, the things that are not, that he might bring to nothing the things that are, 29 in order that no flesh might boast in the sight of God."

Humility is the key as you rightly state. We dont tell God how things are...he tells us how things are. If we want to argue with him, then perhaps we are not showing the humility he requires. To learn, we have to allow ourselves to be 'taught' by him.

 

[Kathryn]

I always get a bad feeling when someone throws out a quote in an attempt to say something like: "See, you misunderstood my long and exhaustive argument, this is actually what I believe in." You know what I mean?

Yeah, I know what you mean and that's why I don't do it. There's a difference between clarifying and backtracking. I'm clarifying.

If I were in a position to, without any possible negative consequences to myself, prevent an "accident" like the one described in the OP and chose not to do so, I could hardly be described as "good" or to be working "for the good" of anyone in any sense of the word. So, I'm not buying it.

I wouldn't buy that behavior from you either - because you're not God. From your very limited human perspective, you have to make the best and most moral decisions possible with the information you have at hand.

God has a lot more information than you do.

Not to mention the "those who love him" nonsense. Just by the way, does that quote not conflict with, for example, Job's story? Or is that not one of your cherries?

Just a warning - I refuse to continue debating with someone who resorts to sarcasm. Let's keep the tone mutually respectful, shall we? The choice is yours, but now you know my position.

That being said, Job is one of my very favorite books of the bible, and I find the story very inspiring.

Is that because they have a bad attitude and/or do not have faith? Or are there actual, objective reasons for some people's unhappiness/lack of joy/whatever you want to call it? You seem to be of an opinion that that simply does not exist.

People are unhappy for a wide variety of reasons, some of which are pretty unavoidable. Some are DIRECTLY tied to attitude, personality, and poor life choices. Others are beyond their control. But grief and sorrow aren't wrong - they're natural. Even Jesus wept. One can grieve and STILL have that deep peace. One can be filled with sorrow and also feel joy. One can shake their fist in God's face and scream "Why?" to the heavens, and still not lose faith - or the benefits of faith.

But did you not make it a point in your response to the OP to say that "ALL OF IT" (by which you meant the stuff that happened to you/your family) worked out for the best?

If the point wasn't to say that "it all works out for the best", what was it? You even went on to explain exactly how everything seemingly bad that happened resulted in things being better. I don't think I was putting words in your mouth, I think you've reconsidered your position.

Life is a process. Those events happened six or seven years ago and my family's life has slowly improved. Rome wasn't built in a day, right? And yes, I would say that our lives have been enriched by those events, even though it was tough going at the time.

Sorry to dissappoint you, but I'm not reconsidering my position. I'm very consistent about it in fact.

Don't worry, be happy. Much easier, equally futile.

CS Lewis said something very profound when he was an old man. He said, "I finally realized that 99 percent of the things I laid in bed at night worrying about never happened."

Worry is a peace sucker. I prefer to do the best I can and the most I can to improve a situation and then - rest in the peace that I've done what I can, and be vigilant for further opportunities to make a positive difference.

It's a very liberating mind set.

Look, please stop quoting scripture and saying: "this is what I believe." It leaves the impression that you don't really have a position of your own. Otherwise, I promise you I'll start quoting Al Bundy just to even the odds.

I think you're grasping at straws here. No one in their right mind would accuse me of not having "a position of my own" after reading the REAMS of "original text" I've written in this thread!

I will continue to quote scripture, or Harry Truman, or CS Lewis, or Al Bundy, if I think those quotes underscore my point.

Feel free to do the same.

I agree, we work with what we've got. But really, the saying for a theist should go: "When God seems not to care about preventing disasters, praise him at least as hard as before."

Nope, the saying of a theist is this: "You are omnipotent, God, and I am not. You know my heart and my desires. Please give me the wisdom, strength, courage, and willingness to do what I should do in this situation, and to learn what I need to learn."

I can be a better person without such tragic events, I promise.

Actually, I'm not so sure about that. A soft life doesn't build strength of character.

[QUOTEYou know, the whole idea of "getting tougher" and "growing as a person", it's on a different scale than what we're talking about. We don't cut soldiers' legs off to make them deal better with the potential loss of their limbs.]

Once again - we're not God. But we may ALLOW a loved one to feel temporary pain in order to accomplish a greater good.

How do you ever evaluate if something is good or not. (good as in positive, desirable, tolerable, better than the alternative...). I mean, if that is really how you think about it how do you decide whether or not you should use the door instead of ramming your head through the wall? You can't know what the outcomes are going to be anyway.

And you can? You can always know the outcome of your actions?

I apply principles to my life, as I'm sure you do as well. I have found over time that when I apply certain principles to my life, my life and the lives of my loved ones generally improve.

Of course life throws us a curveball sometimes. Sometimes you open the door, expecting fully to be able to walk over the threshold, and lo and behold, someone's bricked up the entryway! I believe that when we think that we truly are in total control of things, and something like this happens, we can become infuriated, desperate, flailing, and wild eyed.

When I acknowledge that a Greater Power knows more about that walled up entryway than I do, I can step back more easily, re evaluate, and perhaps even resign myself to living on this side of the door - with all THOSE possibilities.

So - no need to ram my head through the wall.

How do I know something is good? Because I don't sit around wondering if something that's enriching my life could be better if only....if only...

When I do that, it lessens my joy in the moment.

Of course you can decide what the better option is. Of course you can say it would have been better had the drunken driver not caused an accident and your husband not defrauded the IRS. It has nothing to do with results, nothing to do with outcomes. Playing the lottery doesn't suddenly become a good choice just because you happened to have won some money. Having your fortune told doesn't stop being a scam if the fortune-teller happens to hit.

Sorry, but you're talking about luck. I'm talking about principles. Two different things - with usually very different outcomes.

We live in a world where people drive drunk, and where people defraud the IRS. We can't control their actions, we can only control ours.
You can quite safely say that it would have been better had the fortune-teller not decided to scam people. You can say that it would have been better had the accident not happened. If you can't, then you can't say anything about anything without knowing the end result. You can't even say that walking through a door is preferable to ramming your head through the wall. You're just avoiding the answer.

If that's true, why do you prefer to live in a house rather than being homeless?

I may be homeless one day, and it might be exactly where I need to be at that time. After all, I've lived in a storage building before, in Texas when I was eight months pregnant. And guess what - I was joyful.

And now that I live in a nice home, I appreciate it all the more.

 

[Kathryn]

Why do you take care not to cut yourself when chopping onions? Why do you earn an income? Why do you provide for your family - I'm assuming their happiness is also not dependent on an objective reality?

Because a large part of my joy hinges on me taking responsibility for my own choices and actions. I believe I should make responsible decisions - the best ones I can make with the information I have at hand. As a wife and mother, I can provide well for my family, but I can't make them happy. That's up to them.

I think you have a very flawed way of thinking about this or a very flawed way of expressing what you mean.

Or - and here's a novel idea - maybe you just don't agree with me because my principles are grounded in faith and therefore in your book invalid.

What I think you mean, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that those things do not (completely) determine your happiness. That you can be happy even if you don't have them and unhappy even if you have them. That's very different than saying it does not depend on them.

How so?

Give me a break. You can say things like that without blushing?

This is the sort of sarcasm I won't play along with.

Not in those terms. But you did, in response to the OP, present your argument that, for you, it did all work out for the best, so one would assume that implies that it at least might work out for the better for them as well. And I do think you probably would be of an opinion that they should be grateful - no matter what happens

Don't put words in my mouth to suit your own agenda.

This man can truly, truly, find great peace and joy in his life in the future. His life, in fact, can be more fulfilling, exciting, and joyous than anything he can possibily imagine right now in the midst of his grief.

Many things will happen to him which may not have been possible in his earlier scenario. He can either choose to live and accept and embrace a new life, or he can drown forever in grief and bitterness.

The choice is his.

And there's a time and place to say that to someone, and it's not right after they lose a loved one. It's much further down the road of their grief process.

 

[Kathryn]

.

Your strength comes from someone else having a plan for you? Neat. I think it's a lot of empty words that one can use to comfort oneself, but should probably preface any outbursts of faith with the warning "possibly comforting/not necessarily accurate or factual" and perhaps refrain from utilizing them in debates.

This OP was directed at Christians. I am a Christian - that is my, err, FAITH. So I am discussing the OP in relation to that faith.

I don't see how that conflicts with the debate at hand.

Furthermore, you may notice that I have not ridiculed you or your position. In fact, I have attempted to give thoughtful, intelligent, and courteous answers to your questions and challenges.

If that's not appreciated, or if you insist on continuing to be sarcastic and ridiculing, I won't continue the conversation with you. Your choice, as I've stated before. In fact, I'm only tolerating it now because I was offline when you posted this series of snide comments, and hadn't really given you fair warning to this point.

No, those words are not for any time. They're not true.

You have your opinion and I have mine. And I am quite sure neither of us will be able to prove our position to the other.

I reject your premise that pain is inevitable, but even if it is that doesn't mean it makes us stronger as long as it doesn't kill us

I disagree. I believe that pain is inevitable in this life if we live long enough. I also believe that we can CHOOSE to learn and grow through painful experiences, and become stronger.

 

[waitasec]

because the reasoning that is being put forth does not take everything we are told about God into account.
They are looking at one of Gods qualities, Power, and saying that if he is all powerful then he is not using it therefore he must not have it or if he does he must not be interested in using it.

we are told about god, by whom? a superstitious ignorant people?
a book that was written at a time when people had limited knowledge about the world around them?
had we known then what we do now, we wouldn't need to conjure up religious faith.
knowledge and progress is gained by searching. sickness was considered a curse, we now know it's a virus...

The fact is that God has other qualities that temper how he uses his power. He has love...this prevents him from using his power cruely. He has justice, this prevents him from using his power unjustly. He has patience, this prevents him from using his power too quickly. He has wisdom, this prevents him from using his power without forethought. Unlike us, all of Gods qualities are in perfect harmony and are well balanced and when he acts, he uses ALL of them together. The accounts in the bible is what gives us this information...

how can you say god has all these human qualities? that's what i mean by limiting the possibilities. and from we have experienced nature is indifferent.

how he has dealt with people in the past, he he dealt with enemies and how he dealt with the Isrealites shows us exactly how all his qualities come into play.

and god has enemies too...isn't that a human quality?

If you know you only have a limited definition of Gods attributes, why dont you attempt to widen you understanding of his attributes?

because i would rather say, i don't know than limit myself

this is not impossible to do...he has provided us with all the information we need.

no, when the bible was written we didn't have the capacity to understand the world around us. we now have telescopes and microscopes and the like. we have been able to magnify our senses by using progress, religious faith would have you stagnate. and with all the knowledge we do have today about the world around us the more we realize how small and insignificant we are. just because we have the ability to learn doesn't mean we know

So there has to be some other reason why one person reads the bible and understands and another does not. The source of your information could be a problem, as could ones own attitude to what you are reading and the purpose of why you are reading it.

i guess some suspend critical thinking when it comes to religious faith

If you attempt to read it for the purpose of belittling God, then he will not allow you to see what is in it....i believe you need to have the right attitude. Jesus showed that in his day some were given insight but others were not

oh i see the ones that were skeptical about living under a celestial dictatorship were the ones that were deceived

Matthew 1:25 “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes.”
Basically, if we think we are intellectuals, then God will prove us otherwise.
Paul explains this well in 1 Corinthians 1:27-29 [/QUOTE]

oh but of course he wants to dumb it down, but doesn't also say seek and you will find...or is that seek with biased blinders and you will find your biased answer

"but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put the wise men to shame; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put the strong things to shame; 28 and God chose the ignoble things of the world and the things looked down upon, the things that are not, that he might bring to nothing the things that are, 29 in order that no flesh might boast in the sight of God."

well that's not a good argument...
let me ask you this do you apply this to your life in practical terms
i mean when you invest in something do you just go or do you investigate?

Humility is the key as you rightly state. We dont tell God how things are...he tells us how things are. If we want to argue with him, then perhaps we are not showing the humility he requires. To learn, we have to allow ourselves to be 'taught' by him.

who's arguing with god, surely not i and i'm not out to belittle anyone just this belief that has caused more harm then good in the world.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

A close friend informed me today that his cousin lost his wife and 2 kids to a drunk driver a few days ago.
Now the cousin is being asked to "lean on god" and "faith" to make it through it.
So explain that if it was god's "plan" to take his family away, then why lean on god for support? How does that logically make sense?

But according to Scripture, it is not God's purpose to take anybody away.

According to Scripture God is also our Heavenly Father.
Father means life giver not life taker.

At least 3 reasons are given why God is not responsible for such suffering;

1] The world now lies in Satan's power. 2nd Cor 4v4; 1st John 5v19
2] Man has dominated man to his injury - Ecclesiastes 8v9
3] Time and chance or unforeseen occurrences befall us all. Ecc 9v11.

The 18 people of Luke 13vs4,5 were at the wrong place wrong time.

So, Satan is the cruel one. God sent Jesus so that in due time [the millennial time of Jesus reigning over earth] Jesus will destroy Satan [Heb 2v14 b],
and even enemy death will be no more.
Rev 21vs4,5; 1st Corinthians 15v26; Isaiah 25v8; Acts 24v15.

In the meantime the resurrection hope helps sustain us.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This is an impossible hypothetical situation, and therefore an impossible question to answer, because as far as I know, none of my friends are the Alpha and Omega Almighty and omnipotent Supreme Being.

Though some of them seem to think they are - but that's a whole other story.

Okay... instead of a hypothetical situation, how about a real one?

Woman Raped in Washington Park as Hundreds Watched, Nobody Intervened

Is it justifiable to think that the people who witnessed this rape and did nothing did something wrong?

If so, how is God morally different from these bystanders?

The only difference I can think of is that, presumably, God would be immune from the bystander effect and know with certainty that she was being raped and not consenting, but none of this would make God less culpable than any of those bystanders for failing to intervene.

 

[Copernicus]

foolish philosophies are being applied to God and its these sorts of twisted reasonings which cause confusion. God is all powerful, power is one of his attributes, the fact that he doesnt wield it without limits does not mean that he is a contradiction and therefore somehow must not exist. The contradiction comes from mans reasoning and lack of understanding.

I'm sorry to disagree, Pegg, but an unlimited being cannot logically be limited in any way. Not even voluntarily. You see no contradiction in calling your deity "all-powerful" in the same breath that you claim human beings to have the power to resist its will. That is a contradiction, pure and simple.

The idea of Gods omniscience comes from the predestinarian philosophy, that God’s exercise of his foreknowledge is infinite... but the fact is that he does not use it in such a way so as to see every detail of the future...

If he does not, then he lacks infinite foreknowledge, which means the he is not omniscient. Is that your belief?

This philosophy does not harmonize with the Scriptural presentation of God’s qualities, standards, and purposes, as well as the ways he has dealt with mankind. So the ideas of omnipotence and omniscience that you are presenting here is nothing more then an empty speculation not based on the facts.

Whatever. I have learned from experience that Christians all have their various interpretations of the Bible. Most seem to have settled on the idea that God is omniscient and omnipotent. You seem to have settled on the idea that omniscience and omnipotence can be voluntarily compromised without actually being compromised.

there is no logical conundrum when you see God as the way he is presented in the bible. Also when you realise that it is a fact that God is not governing our world, that our world has been disconnected from God, then we can hardly blame him for our failure to make this world a place without pain and suffering.

Well, that's the problem. The Bible does not present our world as being disconnected from God, who has intervened in human affairs quite frequently during biblical times. People who pray tend to believe that he still intervenes.

Of course he can and he has and that is exactly how the bible explains the situation. It quiet clearly shows us that the god of this world is Satan the devil...not Jehovah.

Well, that is appropriate, since God created Satan and knew ahead of time exactly what Satan's effect would be on this world. You cannot escape the contradictions inherent in your logic.

But fortunately the bible also explains that this situation will not remain indefinitely.

Actually, it explains very little. For example, it does not explain why "this situation" had to exist even temporarily.

As I said, the bible explains to us the reason why God would hold back his power.

Not really. All your quotes do is claim that there will be an indeterminate delay. No reasons for the delay are given.

There is also another aspect that should be considered. Gods view of time is different to ours. We think that 6,000 years is a very long time in human terms... but to him it is only 6 days.

2Peter 3:8 However, let this one fact not be escaping YOUR notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day

But omniscience means that God understands our time frame. So the Bible could be a little more precise, in principle. It isn't because people who "keep the faith" keep making up excuses for why it doesn't. A very popular excuse is that we must interpret the Bible metaphorically when it suits our purposes--as if God needed to be imprecise and metaphorical for some reason.

 

[Sententia]

You have your opinion and I have mine. And I am quite sure neither of us will be able to prove our position to the other.

Let's try to be fair for a sec...

You said:

I'll repeat myself once again. I don't breeze in and lightly say to someone grieving, "It's for your own good!" You're so right - that wouldn't be nice, or tasteful. To everything there is a season, and a time for every purpose under heaven. Those words are not for that time.

I have known people who were not strong enough and took their own life and think that if they were raised in a better neighborhood with nicer people they would still be here but I get the impression from you that only people who have faced conflict and came out on top are worthy to have come out on top? Is that a wrong impression or what are trying to harp on?

As far as this:

You believe this. I don't. I have seen God work in my life.

Yhwh or Ra? Why did whatever god you believe in choose to work on your life and not others? Maybe ethiopian Christians didn't believe hard enough when they died of starvation? Maybe not worthy?

Where does the idea that Omega Supreme chose to work in your life in some beneficial way and not others come from?

 

[Pegg]

we are told about god, by whom? a superstitious ignorant people?
a book that was written at a time when people had limited knowledge about the world around them?

what makes you think you are so much different to them? They lived a long time ago yes, but that doesnt mean they were stupid.

you've learnt all about our world through books written by other people...how much have you yourself discovered about the world that you've been able to share with mankind?
Have you named constallations or mapped the stars? Did you discover which crops grew best in which seasons in the types of soil they grow best in and how much to water them and when to prune them? Did you invent the art of metalwork? invent the wheel, Do you know better how to build a pyramid then the egyptions did? I dare you to compare ancient architecture with modern architecture...you will not see the hand of a primitive people.

the ancients were more advanced then you give them credit for.

had we known then what we do now, we wouldn't need to conjure up religious faith.
knowledge and progress is gained by searching. sickness was considered a curse, we now know it's a virus...

the bible and the jews were not superstitious pagans. they did not fear thunder or lightening, they did understand how diseases spread and it is written up in their sanitary laws...the need to wash hands, to bury feces, to not touch dead bodies, to use fire as a way to kill infection by burning clothing & bedding of an infected person... the english suffered terribly during the black plague because they had no idea about isolating sick people from healthy people...yet there it was in their own bibles... a 3,000 year old ancient book from a 'primitive', 'ignorant' & 'superstitious' people.

how can you say god has all these human qualities? that's what i mean by limiting the possibilities. and from we have experienced nature is indifferent.
and god has enemies too...isn't that a human quality?

why is it so impossible to believe that we might have his qualities?

because i would rather say, i don't know than limit myself

perhaps you dont want to know. If you do want to know however, i'll be more then happy to provide you some scriptures whereby you can have examples of how God displays his qualities. Then you can judge him based on real life examples rather then on pure opinion and speculation.

oh but of course he wants to dumb it down, but doesn't also say seek and you will find...or is that seek with biased blinders and you will find your biased answer

seek with an open mind and without pre-conceived ideas. God is happy to tell us how it is... just because we may not like the answer does not mean that it isnt true.

 

[Pegg]

I'm sorry to disagree, Pegg, but an unlimited being cannot logically be limited in any way. Not even voluntarily. You see no contradiction in calling your deity "all-powerful" in the same breath that you claim human beings to have the power to resist its will. That is a contradiction, pure and simple.

Where does the idea that God is limitless come from?

We have seen from the bible that God’s exercise of his power is not simply an unleashing of limitless power but it is constantly governed by his purpose and tempered by his mercy, love and wisdom. He has shown that he certainly does limit the use of his power at times this is why i dont buy into that sort of argument.

If he does not, then he lacks infinite foreknowledge, which means the he is not omniscient. Is that your belief?

We do not take to the predestinarian view that God’s exercise of his foreknowledge is infinite, no. Obviously if it was and if he used it in such a way, then he would be responsible for every bad thing that has ever happened or ever will happen. But we see in the bible example after example of how God makes an examination of a situation then makes a decision based on what he sees.
At times he pronounces his judgement, but then the people repent and he changes his judgement as in the case of the city of Ninevah. This is just one example which shows that he does not use his ability at foreknowledge to see every detail. These sorts of examples show that God uses his foreknowledge selectively....he can choose not to foreknow indiscriminately all the future acts of his creatures.

Whatever. I have learned from experience that Christians all have their various interpretations of the Bible. Most seem to have settled on the idea that God is omniscient and omnipotent. You seem to have settled on the idea that omniscience and omnipotence can be voluntarily compromised without actually being compromised.

and christians have different ideas on how God uses his omniscience and omnipotence... we only go by what we read in the accounts in the bible. They show that God chooses to be selective in the way he uses these powers.

Really, it was pagan people such as the Greeks and Romans who believed in these concepts and applied them to their own gods and goddesses. Greek mythology represented the control of men’s destiny by three goddesses: Clotho (spinner), who spun the thread of life; Lachesis (disposer of lots), who determined the length of life; and Atropos (inflexible), who cut life off when the time expired. A similar triad was found among the Roman deities.

Well, that's the problem. The Bible does not present our world as being disconnected from God, who has intervened in human affairs quite frequently during biblical times. People who pray tend to believe that he still intervenes.

on the contary, the bible is very clear in stating this truth

1John 5:19 We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one

Luke 4:5-7 "So he (the devil) brought him (Jesus) up and showed him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time; 6 and the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and the glory of them, because it has been delivered to me, and to whomever I wish I give it.

Actually, it explains very little. For example, it does not explain why "this situation" had to exist even temporarily.

Adam and eve's rebellion led all mankind into sin ... that is the reason we have this situation temporarily.

Not really. All your quotes do is claim that there will be an indeterminate delay. No reasons for the delay are given.

there are reasons for the delay... the messiah had to come, the kingdom had to be established in heaven, the anointed co-rulers had to be collected from the earth, the message of the kingdom had to be delivered to all the nations

a lot had to happen before God could step in. He doesnt act indiscriminately... he plans things out

But omniscience means that God understands our time frame. So the Bible could be a little more precise, in principle. It isn't because people who "keep the faith" keep making up excuses for why it doesn't. A very popular excuse is that we must interpret the Bible metaphorically when it suits our purposes--as if God needed to be imprecise and metaphorical for some reason.

some parts are right interpreted metaphorically, but other parts of the bible are very precise when it comes to time and calculations and numbers

the jews knew the exact year that the messiah was to arrive based on Daniels prophecy of the 70 weeks.... and modern day christians knew the exact year of the establishment of the heavenly kingdom and the end of the gentile times.

these are deeper areas of study that you might find interesting.

 

[Kathryn]

[QUOTE
Let's try to be fair for a sec...
][/QUOTE]

Well, life isn't fair...but I usually am.

I have known people who were not strong enough and took their own life and think that if they were raised in a better neighborhood with nicer people they would still be here but I get the impression from you that only people who have faced conflict and came out on top are worthy to have come out on top? Is that a wrong impression or what are trying to harp on?

Yes, that's a wrong impression. And I'm not harping on anything. I am trying to patiently answer questions and challenges about my beliefs. That's not "harping." If it is, every member of this forum is guilty!

Yhwh or Ra? Why did whatever god you believe in choose to work on your life and not others? Maybe ethiopian Christians didn't believe hard enough when they died of starvation? Maybe not worthy?

I believe there is one Supreme Being. I call this Being God. I am a Christian and believe in the Christian interpretation of this Being. However, I am sure that even the Christian "understanding" of God falls far short of the actual Entity's scope of being.

I don't believe that God works in my life and not in others. I think it boils down to our openness and our "take" on things a lot of times. For instance, in my story of the worst year of my life - I believe that God was working through all those tragedies and sorrows, even while I was in the very midst of them.

In other words, God "working in our lives" doesn't mean He's working only in "the good times." My faith teaches me to hold to the knowledge that God is present and there for me even when things are terrible. He is a source of strength outside of myself.

And there's not an Ethiopian born who is not at LEAST as worthy of God's grace as I am. Many of them, maybe MOST of them, are better people than I can ever dream of being.

But we are not promised a carefree life on this earth -as a Christian or any other sort of person.

Where does the idea that Omega Supreme chose to work in your life in some beneficial way and not others come from?

Out of your arse? I don't know - those are your words, not mine. I don't hold that belief.