Explain this logically christians....

[Sententia]

Yes, that's a wrong impression. And I'm not harping on anything. I am trying to patiently answer questions and challenges about my beliefs. That's not "harping." If it is, every member of this forum is guilty!

Sorry I used the word harp because I think it is distracting. I am simply wondering why you see suffering as necessarily inevitable and persisting through suffering the only way to properly develop character and strength. Earlier you said:

Not to sound trite, but a life with no hardships doesn't build much character or strength.

No but sometimes enduring said suffering and hardships was too much and that person passed on. Whether they gave up and just let go or did not have the mental capacity at that point to deal with whatever situation is irrelevant in the sense that they did. Further some people end up still alive after enduring suffering and hardship only to end up broken.

There are other paths to great character then enduring suffering. People who endure suffering did not optimally become better people nor do they even necessarily become better. To me, you do not sound trite, you sound wrong.

I believe there is one Supreme Being. I call this Being God. I am a Christian and believe in the Christian interpretation of this Being. However, I am sure that even the Christian "understanding" of God falls far short of the actual Entity's scope of being.

I don't believe that God works in my life and not in others. I think it boils down to our openness and our "take" on things a lot of times. For instance, in my story of the worst year of my life - I believe that God was working through all those tragedies and sorrows, even while I was in the very midst of them.

In other words, God "working in our lives" doesn't mean He's working only in "the good times." My faith teaches me to hold to the knowledge that God is present and there for me even when things are terrible. He is a source of strength outside of myself.

Footprints in the sand. It was then that I carried you. I used to see the world that way as well but I do not anymore. I see the world now as a big scary place with no supernatural entity watching over me or anyone else and with no afterlife when it is done. I am not sure how I could do justice to this finite mortal life any other way.

And there's not an Ethiopian born who is not at LEAST as worthy of God's grace as I am.

Everyone is worthy? To be honest I keep loosing track if it is that everyone is deserving or if it is instead that everyone is not deserving of god's grace or even which god might grant said grace or even what that means. (Even among Christian's its an odd thing to say)

Many of them, maybe MOST of them, are better people than I can ever dream of being.

But we are not promised a carefree life on this earth -as a Christian or any other sort of person.

See me using the Ethiopian argument might have been trite. This is however and interesting way to argue another point completely unrelated to this post which may be why it was on my mind.

Out of your arse? I don't know - those are your words, not mine. I don't hold that belief.

Perhaps but some people who genuinely believe in god and love god still jump off bridges or otherwise do not come out on the other side of suffering the way you did. My point was for that person it did not seem god cared to see them through their hardship. How does that gel with your footprints ideology? Sometimes the footprints end with an explosion at the twin towers or in padded room with a 12 inch plexiglass window.

 

[Kathryn]

Perhaps but some people who genuinely believe in god and love god still jump off bridges or otherwise do not come out on the other side of suffering the way you did. My point was for that person it did not seem god cared to see them through their hardship. How does that gel with your footprints ideology? Sometimes the footprints end with an explosion at the twin towers or in padded room with a 12 inch plexiglass window.

Look, someone who jumps off a bridge in despair is not who I am judging (in fact, I'm not judging anyone). Their mental, emotional, and spiritual state is between them and God. But could a different attitude or a stronger anchor PREVENTED them from jumping from that bridge? Maybe, maybe not - there is no what might have been, there is only what is.

Personally, I doubt I'll ever jump off a bridge. I've lived long enough to know that things generally aren't as bad the next day as they seem today. If you give most things enough time, careful attention, and good work, they generally improve. Of course, they don't ALWAYS - but then, death comes to us all, right? In many interesting forms. Some are more morbid than others -we don't all get to die peacefully in our sleep at age 85 after playing golf that afternoon.

As for the footprints ending in the WTC or in a padded cell - I don't believe they end there. I believe that God's grace is always within our reach, even in the most extreme circumstances.

Speaking of 9/11, I believe that God was with those in the plane that went down in PA. I believe he gave them strength to do something very difficult, even as they stared straight into the face of death.

"Let's roll." I love it. Now THERE'S a guy who sees the big picture!

 

[Sententia]

Speaking of 9/11, I believe that God was with those in the plane that went down in PA. I believe he gave them strength to do something very difficult, even as they stared straight into the face of death.

The terrorist pilots of the planes also derived their strength from their god... So your god inspired the PA plane to be taken down but it was a different god that guided the terrorists?

 

[Kathryn]

The terrorist pilots of the planes also derived their strength from their god... So your god inspired the PA plane to be taken down but it was a different god that guided the terrorists?

I don't know WHAT motivated the terrorists. I suspect it was more than simply a belief in a Supreme Being.

I can't take responsibility for their actions or how they apply their beliefs to their lives. All I can do is take responsibility for my OWN actions and how I apply my OWN beliefs.

 

[Sententia]

Speaking of 9/11, I believe that God was with those in the plane that went down in PA. I believe he gave them strength to do something very difficult, even as they stared straight into the face of death.

I don't know WHAT motivated the terrorists. I suspect it was more than simply a belief in a Supreme Being.

I can't take responsibility for their actions or how they apply their beliefs to their lives. All I can do is take responsibility for my OWN actions and how I apply my OWN beliefs.

I just found it confusing that you were praising the people in the PA plane as being guided by god and having god with them while doing something difficult even while facing death and you not seeing how that is also probably exactly how the terrorists saw their own actions.

 

[Kathryn]

I just found it confusing that you were praising the people in the PA plane as being guided by god and having god with them while doing something difficult even while facing death and you not seeing how that is also probably exactly how the terrorists saw their own actions.

Let me break this down for you:

Sacrificing one's life to prevent someone from killing lots of other people - Good.

Hijacking a plane with the intent to kill all the passengers and take out as many people on the ground as possible - Bad.

 

[Revoltingest]

Let me break this down for you:
Sacrificing one's life to prevent someone from killing lots of other people - Good.
Hijacking a plane with the intent to kill all the passengers and take out as many people on the ground as possible - Bad.

Practical....clear.....simple....effective.....fair......
If you ever want to convert to atheism, I'm willing to sponsor you.
(You'll have to come up with the initiation fee yourself though.)

 

[Kathryn]

Practical....clear.....simple....effective.....fair......
If you ever want to convert to atheism, I'm willing to sponsor you.
(You'll have to come up with the initiation fee yourself though.)

That initiation fee is always the deal breaker for me. I'm just not willing to sacrifice my eternal soul for membership in your club!

Sorry but the ROI doesn't seem all that great!

 

[Sententia]

Let me break this down for you:

Sacrificing one's life to prevent someone from killing lots of other people - Good.

Hijacking a plane with the intent to kill all the passengers and take out as many people on the ground as possible - Bad.

Your point of view makes more sense when you take religious motivations and explanations out of it. No need to shoehorn jesus in or apply supernatural explanations for situations that do not require it.

What would motivate someone to kill all the passengers and take out as many people on the ground as possible?

I don't know WHAT motivated the terrorists. I suspect it was more than simply a belief in a Supreme Being.

Just as I suspect it was more than simply a belief in a Supreme Being that motivates sacrificing one's life to prevent someone from killing lots of other people.

 

[Kathryn]

Your point of view makes more sense when you take religious motivations and explanations out of it.

Your opinion. And you've got a right to it.

No need to shoehorn jesus in or apply supernatural explanations for situations that do not require it.

Once again - that's your opinion. Personally, I base my moral values (and that IS what we're talking about here) on my faith, so - as a follower of Christ, injecting His teachings into my moral choices makes perfect sense.

[QUOTE
What would motivate someone to kill all the passengers and take out as many people on the ground as possible?

][/QUOTE]

What motivates psychopaths? What motivates serial killers? What motivates child abusers and rapists? I used to work as an art therapist in a maximum security prison for the criminally insane, and I can tell you that evil is present in this world and motivates lots of people to do incredibly cruel things to others.

Just as I suspect it was more than simply a belief in a Supreme Being that motivates sacrificing one's life to prevent someone from killing lots of other people.

Our actions spring from our beliefs, right? I mean, talk is cheap but what we DO in our daily lives, as well as in extraordinary situations, indicates our core values, right?

Christians derive their core values from their faith. Faith without works is dead.

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone," (James 2:24)

 

[Sententia]

Our actions spring from our beliefs, right? I mean, talk is cheap but what we DO in our daily lives, as well as in extraordinary situations, indicates our core values, right?

Christians derive their core values from their faith. Faith without works is dead.

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone," (James 2:24)

Again... These all work for the terrorists as well... They might have quoted the same scripture or had the same ideology.

You can justify both great and horrible actions via scripture and it is ultimately a useless tool in choosing morality.

When I pressed you on this you broke down your point of view with out religion but with this other R word. Reason. You pleasantly surprised me.

What motivates psychopaths? What motivates serial killers? What motivates child abusers and rapists? I used to work as an art therapist in a maximum security prison for the criminally insane, and I can tell you that evil is present in this world and motivates lots of people to do incredibly cruel things to others.

I'm pretty sure you are just agreeing with me but think you are disagreeing? It wasn't solely a religious belief or way of life that motivated the terrorists just as it wasn't solely a religious belief or way of life that motivated the people on the PA plane.

Once again - that's your opinion. Personally, I base my moral values (and that IS what we're talking about here) on my faith, so - as a follower of Christ, injecting His teachings into my moral choices makes perfect sense.

If that works for you than good for you but following Christ does not equal morality to me.

How we live our lives and what we DO in our daily lives matters more to me than following Christ. People can follow Christ and end up being immoral. Its not the following of Christ or Allah that matters to me... Its how you do it and for me personally I don't see how Christ, Allah or the tooth fairy even fits in to the picture of morality but at the same time some people like blue and others red. Pepsi vrs Coke... Theism vrs Atheism...

 

[Kathryn]

Again... These all work for the terrorists as well... They might have quoted the same scripture or had the same ideology.

I don't think the Muslim extremists who perpetrated the attacks of 9/11 follow the teachings of the New Testament.

[QUOTE
You can justify both great and horrible actions via scripture and it is ultimately a useless tool in choosing morality.
][/QUOTE]

I agree that people can misuse and twist scripture, but the teachings (taken as a whole rather than lifted out of context as so many people are inclined to do to justify their own actions or agendas) of the New Testament are clearly against acts of terrorism.

When I pressed you on this you broke down your point of view with out religion but with this other R word. Reason. You pleasantly surprised me.

Well, thanks. I was raised by reasonable, intelligent, and intellectual Christians in a very dynamic, challenging and thought-provoking Christian environment. The sort of Christianity I prescribe to and practice is quite compatible with reason.

If that works for you than good for you but following Christ does not equal morality to me.

Well, to each his own and God forbid that I would force my Christian beliefs on anyone. You're responsible for your own actions and I am responsible for mine. Period.

How we live our lives and what we DO in our daily lives matters more to me than following Christ.

You've made it clear that you are not a follower of Christ, so of course this statement is congruent with your own personal beliefs. However, let me clarify something - a person who is following Christ follows Christ with his/her LIFE and ACTIONS - not just words or a profession of faith.

People can follow Christ and end up being immoral.

All people are immoral - Christians included. No one is perfect and no one's works will earn them one bit of grace or one moment of eternity in the presence of God.

Its not the following of Christ or Allah that matters to me... Its how you do it and for me personally I don't see how Christ, Allah or the tooth fairy even fits in to the picture of morality but at the same time some people like blue and others red. Pepsi vrs Coke... Theism vrs Atheism...

Right - I guess we'll find out in the end which perspective is correct. Meanwhile, my faith betters my life and the lives of those around me, and it gives me great strength and comfort. I'm keepin' it.

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

Mohammed, that misses the point of the thread. We will all die at a specific time. Nobody here questions that. The question is whether there is any conceivable justification for an all-powerful, all-merciful God to permit suffering on the scale described in the OP. Non-believers do not need to explain such horrible suffering, because it is what you would expect if God did not exist. So the question addressed to believers is how one reconciles God with intolerable suffering--and not just the fact that some humans suffer horribly, but that the suffering is so unevenly distributed in the world. Most husbands or wives will never experience the sudden loss of their family.

So far believers have brought up the free will defense, which I have never found a coherent or satisfactory explanation for their God's failure to intervene. That God has some secret "plan" which we cannot really understand is another possibility, but not a more reasonable possibility than that God fails to intervene because he does not exist. Some have also made the reasonable point that faith in God can actually be a source of strength to help the victim alleviate and perhaps outgrow the suffering. From an atheistic perspective, however, one might use that argument to justify snake oil as a cure, since belief that it is a cure can sometimes stimulate an immune system to overcome cancer. The problem with that approach is that snake oil can ultimately cause more harm because there might be better alternative cures that are more likely to work than snake oil.

feeling of pain differ from one to another.

it depends on the person it self,

however, if a person consider this life as "station" , he stand in it for a while , then he take a ticket and travel to another land/world. he will not be suffering that much; because he think will see him again in the hereafter and enjoy being with them again.

Qura'an sura "Jonah" verse 45

45. One day He will
Gather them together:
(It will be) as if
They had tarried
But an hour of a day:
They will recognise each other:
Assuredly those will be lost
Who denied the meeting
With God and refused
To receive true guidance.

the verse is talking about the Judgement day when Allah resurrects people and gathers them for judgement , they will feel that if they had spent an hour of a day during thier life on earth.

 

[Commoner]

Something got jumbled up with your first post so I had some trouble quoting your answers so I skipped most.

I wouldn't buy that behavior from you either - because you're not God. From your very limited human perspective, you have to make the best and most moral decisions possible with the information you have at hand.

God has a lot more information than you do.

And you're claiming that not preventing such an accident could be the best and most moral decision possible?

This is again one of those posts that seem to imply that you think these are the type of things that happen for our own good. Otherwise your argument doesn't really work.

Once again - we're not God. But we may ALLOW a loved one to feel temporary pain in order to accomplish a greater good.

We're not God, we have no (better) choice but to do so. God is presumably not faced with the same limitations.

"If God had wanted women to play ball,[FONT=verdana,helvetica,arial] he would've made them men." (Al Bundy)
[/FONT]

And you can? You can always know the outcome of your actions?

No, that's the point, I don't look at the particular outcome to decide whether something is good or not.

I apply principles to my life, as I'm sure you do as well. I have found over time that when I apply certain principles to my life, my life and the lives of my loved ones generally improve.

Of course life throws us a curveball sometimes. Sometimes you open the door, expecting fully to be able to walk over the threshold, and lo and behold, someone's bricked up the entryway! I believe that when we think that we truly are in total control of things, and something like this happens, we can become infuriated, desperate, flailing, and wild eyed.

When I acknowledge that a Greater Power knows more about that walled up entryway than I do, I can step back more easily, re evaluate, and perhaps even resign myself to living on this side of the door - with all THOSE possibilities.

So - no need to ram my head through the wall.

I don't understand how that's relevant... I think you've missed the point so entirely you might as well not have even read my post.

How do I know something is good? Because I don't sit around wondering if something that's enriching my life could be better if only....if only...

When I do that, it lessens my joy in the moment.

I'm beginning to wonder if you have any comprehension of what I'm saying at all. I'll assume from that post that whatever enriches your life is good, which is a terribly flawed position.

Sorry, but you're talking about luck. I'm talking about principles. Two different things - with usually very different outcomes.

No, I'm not talking about luck. When you say that your husbands actions resulted in your life ultimately becoming better - that's luck. It's not what we would expect from such and action, that's why we - on principle - don't do it. That's why we say they're bad, regardless of outcome.

I may be homeless one day, and it might be exactly where I need to be at that time. After all, I've lived in a storage building before, in Texas when I was eight months pregnant. And guess what - I was joyful.

And now that I live in a nice home, I appreciate it all the more.

How is it possible that you've just completely missed the point again?

Because a large part of my joy hinges on me taking responsibility for my own choices and actions. I believe I should make responsible decisions - the best ones I can make with the information I have at hand. As a wife and mother, I can provide well for my family, but I can't make them happy. That's up to them.

Ahem...you don't cut yourself when chopping onions and/or don't live in the street because "your joy depends on taking responsibility for your actions". Are you kidding me? Kathryn, this is getting to be absurd.

How so?

What do you mean how so? What's unclear about it? Those things that we've mentioned simply aren't the only factors that determine our joy in life. That doesn't mean they aren't factors. I can ride a bicycle without using my hands and some people can't ride it using both of theirs. Doesn't mean that how you ride you bike is unaffected by how many hands you use.

This man can truly, truly, find great peace and joy in his life in the future. His life, in fact, can be more fulfilling, exciting, and joyous than anything he can possibily imagine right now in the midst of his grief.

I agree. Who's arguing otherwise?

Don't put words in my mouth to suit your own agenda.

Let me remind you of what you said earlier:

I'll repeat myself once again. I don't breeze in and lightly say to someone grieving, "It's for your own good!" You're so right - that wouldn't be nice, or tasteful. To everything there is a season, and a time for every purpose under heaven. Those words are not for that time."

Now, I was fully expecting you to correct yourself or tell me that I've misinterpreted what you'd said when I commented on it saying that "it's not true that it's for their own good" here:

No, those words are not for any time. They're not true.

To which you responded:

You have your opinion and I have mine. And I am quite sure neither of us will be able to prove our position to the other.

Now, please be careful when accusing me of putting words in your mouth. That's a bit worse than making a couple of sarcastic remarks. You've accused me of warping your words in every post you've made and after being provided the justification for my interpretation, you've failed to address those points instead focusing on criticizing the sarcastic tone of my posts.

 

[Kathryn]

Commoner, I am not going to take your post item by item again. I've been very consistent in what I've said, and I'm not going to continue to repeat and explain myself because it's becoming tiresome.

And perhaps - just perhaps - I'm not giving you the answers you're looking for, not because I don't "comprehend" what you're trying to say, but because I am simply not going to fall into your arguments by being inconsistent or giving you answers you think will trip me up.

And then again, there's always the possibility that you're just not making a very strong argument and are feeling frustrated.

 

[Maury83]

in other words you ascribe to celestial dictatorship....
Permitting something to happen to prove a point is not dictatorship. If he had destroyed Adam and Eve, all the other intelligent beings would have thought he wasn't a just person....If I went up to someone and said they are usless at their job and should be sacked...I am pretty sure they would reply "well, go ahead and show me what you can do then"!! Do I think it would be a fair answer? Yes I do.


oh i see and by causing needless pain and suffering for the following generations somehow makes sense to you?
God has the power to give and restore people to life, of course he feels pain for what is happening. The Bible says that he "cares"


i guess free will doesn't work too well in a dictatorship.
Again, permitting something to happen is not dictatorship. If I gave you a gun and you decided to shoot yourself in the foot...would you blame me for the pain?? That is free will....people cannot rule themselves, that is why there is so much suffering....


you are really attracted to the tyrannical aspect of a celestial dictatorship, aren't you?

If God didn't care he wouldn't have sent his "only begotten" son to die for the sins of strangers who just blame him for everything that happens! It is easy to point a finger...would you send a loved one from your family to die for people you don't even know? I would find it hard to believe.
I never heard of any dictator in history giving his life or one of his loved ones for his people.

 

[Maury83]

If God didn't care he wouldn't have sent his "only begotten" son to die for the sins of strangers who just blame him for everything that happens! It is easy to point a finger...would you send a loved one from your family to die for people you don't even know? I would find it hard to believe.
I never heard of any dictator in history giving his life or one of his loved ones for his people.

Apologies for the above message.....my quoting and answering is in the wron layout...

 

[Commoner]

Commoner, I am not going to take your post item by item again. I've been very consistent in what I've said, and I'm not going to continue to repeat and explain myself because it's becoming tiresome.

And perhaps - just perhaps - I'm not giving you the answers you're looking for, not because I don't "comprehend" what you're trying to say, but because I am simply not going to fall into your arguments by being inconsistent or giving you answers you think will trip me up.

And then again, there's always the possibility that you're just not making a very strong argument and are feeling frustrated.

I'm the one feeling frustrated and running out of arguments? That's an interesting take on the situation.

 

[Kathryn]

You're the one who keeps proclaiming that I don't comprehend what you're asking, when one thing I've never been accused of is poor reading comprehension. I've answered your questions and challenges, and you keep coming back saying I must not understand what you're asking.

Maybe you just don't understand or like my answers.

I don't know where the disconnect is, but there definitely is one. I'm tired of repeating myself, though, I know that much.

So I'm not going to keep doing it. Come up with some different questions, or phrase your original ones differently, and I'll take another look at it.

 

[Commoner]

You're the one who keeps proclaiming that I don't comprehend what you're asking, when one thing I've never been accused of is poor reading comprehension. I've answered your questions and challenges, and you keep coming back saying I must not understand what you're asking.

Maybe you just don't understand or like my answers.

I don't know where the disconnect is, but there definitely is one. I'm tired of repeating myself, though, I know that much.

So I'm not going to keep doing it. Come up with some different questions, or phrase your original ones differently, and I'll take another look at it.

"I'd rather dive of the Sears Tower head first into a thumbtack or bait a crocodile with my manhood..." - Al Bundy