Explain this logically christians....

[Scott C.]

A close friend informed me today that his cousin lost his wife and 2 kids to a drunk driver a few days ago.
Now the cousin is being asked to "lean on god" and "faith" to make it through it.
So explain that if it was god's "plan" to take his family away, then why lean on god for support? How does that logically make sense?

We need to trust God...trust that he it was wise that God did not prevent the death and the subsequent sadness...trust that things happen for a reason...trust that God will comfort us in affliction...there is no contradiction here.

 

[james2ko]

...Except if Derren is televising the whole thing. And nobody will plead "Derren made me do it", because of the kicker: nobody in the experiment would realise Derren had anything to do with it. If you don't know that Derren is deliberately messing with your head, it looks like your own, original idea.

Why didn't you tell me it was televised that obviously makes his trickery legit.:sarcastic

Derren can convince you to rob a bank, without you realizing it's anything except your own idea. How on earth is that not compromising your free will?

Ok so I'm going to rob a bank or kill someone without me realizing someone is trying to talk me into committing a crime? :areyoucra

You are mistakenly elevating Mr. Brown's status to a god. He is merely a professional magician and manipulator, an illusionist and showman (read his profile in wiki). Many of his mind tricks are probably staged and the subjects hand picked and coached. Of course we will never know because it will ruin his gig.

You are equating persuasion with choice. Man can persuade man one way or the other but ultimately a choice must be made. Only God can manipulate a human's free will.

 

[waitasec]

We need to trust God...trust that he it was wise that God did not prevent the death and the subsequent sadness...trust that things happen for a reason...trust that God will comfort us in affliction...there is no contradiction here.

when you say trust god do you think you are meaning you don't understand?

 

[PolyHedral]

Ok so I'm going to rob a bank or kill someone without me realizing someone is trying to talk me into committing a crime? :areyoucra

If someone with both the skill and inclination decides so, then yes, you will.

You are mistakenly elevating Mr. Brown's status to a god. He is merely a professional magician and manipulator, an illusionist and showman (read his profile in wiki). Many of his mind tricks are probably staged and the subjects hand picked and coached. Of course we will never know because it will ruin his gig.

Unless the end result is entirely staged, he is still capable of manipulating people. Since he can manipulate people to do nigh-arbitrary things without their knowledge, the whole concept of "free will" breaks down. Granted, there is a limit to what he can do, but that limit is still impressive, and more importantly, that limit is only a matter of knowledge and resources.

You are equating persuasion with choice. Man can persuade man one way or the other but ultimately a choice must be made. Only God can manipulate a human's free will.

Rob an armoured van, yes or no?

 

[Scott C.]

when you say trust god do you think you are meaning you don't understand?

I understand that we came to earth to learn and grow, which includes suffering of varying degrees and types. It's part of God's design for the mortal experience. However, when something specific happens which causes grief, I don't necessarily know why that specific thing needed to happen when it did. I don't know if it was God's specific intention that it happen or merely God's intention to allow it to happen. We need to learn that God is good and loving and then we can trust Him to always do what's best for us...whether we fully understand why or not.

If we understand these points, we can learn to trust God and find comfort in affliction:

- God loves us.
- God sent us to a difficult world with sorrow, so we could grow.
- God has the power to intervene in our lives according to his will.
- God allows all of us the free will to cause or alleviate the suffering of others.
- The rewards of trusting God throughout life far exceeds any suffering we incur during this life.

 

[Copernicus]

You are equating persuasion with choice. Man can persuade man one way or the other but ultimately a choice must be made. Only God can manipulate a human's free will.

Anyone can hold a gun to your head and give you orders. You can choose to obey those orders or not. That is your choice. The act of holding a gun to your head does not compromise free will, although it limits your options. Similarly, secular law limits choices by issuing threats against those who choose to disobey. It is totally unclear how you think God would compromise anyone's free will by preventing miscreants from acting on their worst impulses or making his existence totally obvious. Surely you would like everyone to obey God's will, would you not?

 

[james2ko]

If someone with both the skill and inclination decides so, then yes, you will.


Unless the end result is entirely staged, he is still capable of manipulating people. Since he can manipulate people to do nigh-arbitrary things without their knowledge, the whole concept of "free will" breaks down. Granted, there is a limit to what he can do, but that limit is still impressive, and more importantly, that limit is only a matter of knowledge and resources.


Rob an armoured van, yes or no?

That's where our disagreement stems. I do not consider manipulation a surrendering of our free will. Manipulation is simply a subtle form of persuasion which is what Derren does. Our judicial system recognizes this and so should you.

You are really deifying this man. Are you taking his home study course?

 

[james2ko]

Anyone can hold a gun to your head and give you orders. You can choose to obey those orders or not. That is your choice. The act of holding a gun to your head does not compromise free will, although it limits your options. Similarly, secular law limits choices by issuing threats against those who choose to disobey. It is totally unclear how you think God would compromise anyone's free will by preventing miscreants from acting on their worst impulses or making his existence totally obvious. Surely you would like everyone to obey God's will, would you not?

One day that will become reality. God tells us in His word that eventually every human being that ever lived, from the homeless child in North Korea to Adolf Hitler, will have an unobstructed and unhindered opportunity to either obey or reject His will.

 

[PolyHedral]

One day that will become reality. God tells us in His word that eventually every human being that ever lived, from the homeless child in North Korea to Adolf Hitler, will have an unobstructed and unhindered opportunity to either obey or reject His will.

What if you choose to reject His will for logically justified reasons?

 

[waitasec]

I understand that we came to earth to learn and grow, which includes suffering of varying degrees and types. It's part of God's design for the mortal experience. However, when something specific happens which causes grief, I don't necessarily know why that specific thing needed to happen when it did. I don't know if it was God's specific intention that it happen or merely God's intention to allow it to happen. We need to learn that God is good and loving and then we can trust Him to always do what's best for us...whether we fully understand why or not.

If we understand these points, we can learn to trust God and find comfort in affliction:

- God loves us.
- God sent us to a difficult world with sorrow, so we could grow.
- God has the power to intervene in our lives according to his will.
- God allows all of us the free will to cause or alleviate the suffering of others.
- The rewards of trusting God throughout life far exceeds any suffering we incur during this life.

how do you justify needless suffering prevalent in nature? when you put a label, do you realize you're limiting the possibilities?

 

[Sententia]

I DO need my faith - it is a source of great strength for me. That's all I'm saying. And the man in the OP is a Christian too, so I would assume he holds some of the same general ideas about faith and God as I do, so if I shared the source of my strength with him, how would that do him harm?

I needed to be rid of faith to access my true source of strength. As far as particular personal gods... I don't even feel inclined to debate it anymore. Its a ridiculous argument and any 30 year old putting their teeth under their pillow for the tooth fairy is about as ridiculous to me as personal god theists...

Its ludicrously silly to revel in superstition like a little kid who knows he has to fall asleep if santa is to come.

On the same note to each their own. Putting your tooth under your pillow is a meaningless and harmless belief... If it makes you feel good then great. Harming people in this life though because you value afterlife goodies more then behaving morally in this life is a problem for me.

Crazy christians are like whaaaa? So we ripped out a few tongues and drowned a few witches... we are totally moderate now so go blow balance.

Great... But not all christians are moderate normal people. Some people take Christianity too far.

Wait what? Some people take Video games too far... should we out law video games?

Ummm no... Focus people. We are secular country and we have rules. We are not a Christian country. If we were a Christian country you would not be entitled to worship Ra, Satan or no one in particular... public school would feature prayer and corporal beatings (Like some states still do... aye some teachers in the USA still get payed to lay hands on teenage rumps, yay ancient bible beliefs.... sigh)

Ultimately I am fine with you liking your god... But people that like your god more then they like being nice to people around them in this world are a problem and I don't care if jesus told them to drown their children no more then I care you stabbed your GF to death because she deleted your level 80 rogue in a video game.

At some point people need to acknowledge that their beliefs are personal and that they live in a secular world and that secular life and secular morality MUST come first. Religion is like like coke or pepsi... It should not be you like coke so much you are willing to poison pepsi...

A close friend informed me today that his cousin lost his wife and 2 kids to a drunk driver a few days ago.
Now the cousin is being asked to "lean on god" and "faith" to make it through it.
So explain that if it was god's "plan" to take his family away, then why lean on god for support? How does that logically make sense?

I found it insulting. My Grandma died of cancer in her early 60s and I was told to rejoice as she is in a better place. I was told this by people who cried for hours and sat by my beside as a kid when I had cancer.... If getting cancer and dying meant I was going to a better place then why so sad? Let me die and get to a better place? Why come by everyday and pray I get better and cry in sadness in misery while telling me to cheer up when my grandma dies of cancer as its not so bad... she's in a better place.

Her brain doesn't work anymore. She that was she is gone... me that remembers how she was is still her and she still exists as I remember her which is most likely a highly distorted and optimized memory....

Shes not in a better or worse place. My grammy is just not conscious anymore. It happens to all of us. It will happen to me. (Whatever ME means.)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I found it insulting. My Grandma died of cancer in her early 60s and I was told to rejoice as she is in a better place. I was told this by people who cried for hours and sat by my beside as a kid when I had cancer.... If getting cancer and dying meant I was going to a better place then why so sad? Let me die and get to a better place? Why come by everyday and pray I get better and cry in sadness in misery while telling me to cheer up when my grandma dies of cancer as its not so bad... she's in a better place.

My grandmother died of cancer, too. So did my father. I hate cancer and I want to see it wiped off the face of the Earth.

... but if I thought that cancer was the mechanism that an all-knowing God put in place to bring my grandmother and father to an eternal, suffering-free paradise, I probably wouldn't think that cancer was that bad at all.

I really have no idea how the theists who work as cancer researchers reconcile this. Same goes for anyone else who simultaneously works to relieve suffering while also believing that suffering has a God-appointed purpose.

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

A close friend informed me today that his cousin lost his wife and 2 kids to a drunk driver a few days ago.
Now the cousin is being asked to "lean on god" and "faith" to make it through it.
So explain that if it was god's "plan" to take his family away, then why lean on god for support? How does that logically make sense?

well I am not a Christian, But in my opinion

every one of us hold a specific age.

regardless the cause of death, if "cousin's wife" passed away becuse of a specific disease, I am suer that the "cousin" would be sad as musch as he is sad now.

every one of us will die on a specific age. and every one of us will be sad because of loosing some one very close to him.

 

[james2ko]

What if you choose to reject His will for logically justified reasons?

If you consider, upon your second chance at physical life under utopian conditions--right here on earth--with Christ and His supernatural Saints visibly in charge, a logically justifiable reason to reject Him, then you leave Him no choice but to reject you.

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

A close friend informed me today that his cousin lost his wife and 2 kids to a drunk driver a few days ago.
Now the cousin is being asked to "lean on god" and "faith" to make it through it.
So explain that if it was god's "plan" to take his family away, then why lean on god for support? How does that logically make sense?

People by nature frequently to "lean" one way or an other, either they become more deeply religious and seek ways of bargaining with their God and even feel some sense of guilt they in an indirect sense they caused it and God is punishing them. Others are more matter of fact and put it down to a drunk in charge of a dangerous machine and just simply use it as justification for stricter drunk driving laws and leave religion out of it altogether, even if they happen to be religious.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

If there is no compulsion, then how can it be called God's act?

Christianity is based on falth, choice and freewill. in the normal way God does not take direct action in dealing with mankind.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Christianity is based on falth, choice and freewill. in the normal way God does not take direct action in dealing with mankind.

You say "in the normal way God does not take direct action"; in what sense does God act - whether directly or indirectly - through people at all if he does not compel people at all?

 

[jtartar]

A close friend informed me today that his cousin lost his wife and 2 kids to a drunk driver a few days ago.
Now the cousin is being asked to "lean on god" and "faith" to make it through it.
So explain that if it was god's "plan" to take his family away, then why lean on god for support? How does that logically make sense?

ninerbuff,
If you truely want to know how things are, PLEASE meditate and see if my logic, and what the Bible says, seems true to you.
Many people blame God for the problems we are having on earth. This is because God is Allpowerful, and could change all things for the best. So why doesn't He???
This is something that you must contemplate on, because most of the world does not understand.
Since the time that Adam and Eve rebelled against God He has turned the world over to Satan, to be the ruler. Consider what Jesus said. Remember that Jesus has been alive for billions of years, maybe trillions, being the very first thing that God created, John 12:31, 14:30, 16:11, Col 1:15, Rev 3:14, John 6:57, Prov 8:22-31. Consider, also the exchange between Jesus and Satan, at Luke 4:5-8, where Satan says that the rule of all the Kingdoms of the world have been turned over to him, and that to whomever he wants to he can give it. Notice that Jesus does not disagree with Satan, but says to worship only God.
Consider also what the Apostle Paul said at 2Cor 4:3,4, that Satan is the god of this system of things. The apostle John says similar things, 1John 5:19, Rev 12:9. Notice that here the Bible says that Satan is misleading the whole world.
An interesting point is what some theologians believe in PANSATANISM, which means that the world conditions are a manifestation of the personality of it's ruler, Satan. Now think, doesn't that seem much for believable than to think that these conditions are what The true God wants???
Anothe point to think about; It is God, the Creator of all things who has promised to make all things right, but in His on appointed time, Acts 3:20,21, Eph 1:9-11, 20-22. God has given mankind and Satan a certain period of time to prove whether they can rule this world in a good and satisfying way.
Mankind was made to be in subjection to God, man is incapable of ruling himself, Jere 10:23, Ecc 8:9
When God chose the nation of Israel to be His chosen people, they were His witnesses to the nations, Isa 43:10-12. When the nation of Israel continued to turn away from God, He allowed the nation to be defeated and the Great Temple that was a symbol of God's presence with His people to be destroyed. This happened in the year 607BCE, when the Babyonians defeated the nation of Israel. This was the end of Theocratic rule on earth. Daniel wrote a prophecy which tells exactly how long there would be no Theocratic government on earth. This period was 2,520 years, Daniel, chapter 4, starting at verse 10, which speaks about Seven Times. The great tree is a symbol of God's Kingdom on earth. It was cut down, but would grow again. In Daniels day this period was seven years, but in the long range prophecy this time period was 2,520 years, which ended in 1914AD. This means that there is very little time for people to find the true God, whose name is Jehovah, and learn about the one true religion that God is blessing today, Eph 4:3-6, Matt 25:31-46, 2Thess 1:6-9, 2Pet 3:7-9, 14,15, Rev 15:16, 19: 11-21.

 

[paolops181]

So explain that if it was god's "plan" to take his family away, then why lean on god for support?

Because he is our God.
‘Now see that I, even I, am He,
And there is no God besides Me;
I kill and I make alive;
I wound and I heal;
Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand." -Deut.32;39

How does that logically make sense?

It make sense to me.
"They are all plain to him who understands,
And right to those who find knowledge." -Pro.8:9
"Happy is the man who finds wisdom,
And the man who gains understanding;" -Pro.3:13

 

[ninerbuff]

ninerbuff,
If you truely want to know how things are, PLEASE meditate and see if my logic, and what the Bible says, seems true to you.
Many people blame God for the problems we are having on earth. This is because God is Allpowerful, and could change all things for the best. So why doesn't He???
This is something that you must contemplate on, because most of the world does not understand.
Since the time that Adam and Eve rebelled against God He has turned the world over to Satan, to be the ruler. Consider what Jesus said. Remember that Jesus has been alive for billions of years, maybe trillions, being the very first thing that God created, John 12:31, 14:30, 16:11, Col 1:15, Rev 3:14, John 6:57, Prov 8:22-31. Consider, also the exchange between Jesus and Satan, at Luke 4:5-8, where Satan says that the rule of all the Kingdoms of the world have been turned over to him, and that to whomever he wants to he can give it. Notice that Jesus does not disagree with Satan, but says to worship only God.
Consider also what the Apostle Paul said at 2Cor 4:3,4, that Satan is the god of this system of things. The apostle John says similar things, 1John 5:19, Rev 12:9. Notice that here the Bible says that Satan is misleading the whole world.
An interesting point is what some theologians believe in PANSATANISM, which means that the world conditions are a manifestation of the personality of it's ruler, Satan. Now think, doesn't that seem much for believable than to think that these conditions are what The true God wants???
Anothe point to think about; It is God, the Creator of all things who has promised to make all things right, but in His on appointed time, Acts 3:20,21, Eph 1:9-11, 20-22. God has given mankind and Satan a certain period of time to prove whether they can rule this world in a good and satisfying way.
Mankind was made to be in subjection to God, man is incapable of ruling himself, Jere 10:23, Ecc 8:9
When God chose the nation of Israel to be His chosen people, they were His witnesses to the nations, Isa 43:10-12. When the nation of Israel continued to turn away from God, He allowed the nation to be defeated and the Great Temple that was a symbol of God's presence with His people to be destroyed. This happened in the year 607BCE, when the Babyonians defeated the nation of Israel. This was the end of Theocratic rule on earth. Daniel wrote a prophecy which tells exactly how long there would be no Theocratic government on earth. This period was 2,520 years, Daniel, chapter 4, starting at verse 10, which speaks about Seven Times. The great tree is a symbol of God's Kingdom on earth. It was cut down, but would grow again. In Daniels day this period was seven years, but in the long range prophecy this time period was 2,520 years, which ended in 1914AD. This means that there is very little time for people to find the true God, whose name is Jehovah, and learn about the one true religion that God is blessing today, Eph 4:3-6, Matt 25:31-46, 2Thess 1:6-9, 2Pet 3:7-9, 14,15, Rev 15:16, 19: 11-21.

Sorry but I don't find the bible to be a reliable source for proof of a god.