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Exploring Atheism
- Thread starter maro
- Start date
Excellent ... :clapyeah, or even more impressive, perhaps not.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
And that is irrelevant. As I said, people need to see patterns to understand things. The design you speak of is created by our minds. It is possible to explain that "design" through means other than an intelligent designer. Instead of everything being designed by some intelligent force, it is simply brought about through random unintelligent forces. This explanation allows for everything that exists, just as easily as your intelligent design theory does.
Also, as Mestemia said, does intelligent design explain all the "flaws" in the human body and elsewhere, too?
The fall of Darwinism? I've heard of many groups trying to discount it, usually by illogical and irrational means. Also, do you mean Darwinism, or do you mean Evolution? There is no "fall" of either. There is also no rise of ID. Those same people are trying to force it on people, but it's not working. It's just a not-so-novel attempt to replace science with religion.
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crystalonyx
Well-Known Member
Darwin was probably the greatest scientist to ever live, evolution is fact, as much as a hard science as physics or chemistry. This is the problem that many theists have, that the facts don't jive with their beliefs.
I have the same sense of wonder when I look at the shape of a river, its eddies and its undulations as I do when I look at the human body.
We don't usually hear people attribute the shape of a waterfall and its downstream stilling basing to the direct hand of God, because we can see with our own eyes how its shape is the natural creation of erosion by the flow of water.
I see the same sort of thing in evolution: the processes involved take much longer and they're much more subtle, but they're still there and apparent for anyone who cares to look.
I don't see any more reason to assume that God purposely designed some feature of anatomy than I do to assume that Niagara Gorge was dug by a team of angels with shovels.
Rumours of evolution's death have been greatly exaggerated.
There are two anthropic principles:
- the weak anthropic principle basically says that any hypothesis for our past must take into account that we exist. For example, If someone were to come up with a theory for the formation of our galaxy that implied Earth would have been flooded with fatal radiation a billion years ago, we can use the weak anthropic principle to conclude that the hypothesis is incorrect. It's trivially true, but can be a useful reminder.
- the strong anthropic principle says that our universe was designed or fine-tuned with us in mind. It's unsupported, unmeasurable conjecture, and is not a scientific conclusion; it's not even a scientific hypothesis.
fact & inference
... just like physics and chemistry. I'd be hard-pressed to think of a branch of physics that isn't steeped in inference.
And the good scientist understands which is which.
Yerda
Veteran Member
As a medical student you should know better. Science, especially the ones you've listed, provides all the details we need to say that design is superfluous.
Who is teaching medicine to you?maro said:
little_monkey
atheist
Evolution does not say anything about God. So I wonder why there are so many people who see evolution as a threat to their belief in God?!?
maro
muslimah
Trey of Diamonds said:
I would like only yo make one correction here... For me , God is not part of the universe...So ,my religion is certainly not conceptualizing the positive energy of the universe as God....God ,for me , is a higher wise being "outside" the universe...The universe is just his creation...his master piece by which he wanted to be known...I believe my mind is not qualified to realize what God is...I can only know him through the universe...And through my heart...
Who knows ? ..i ,myself , don't think praying is something bad to experience even for an atheist or an agonistic....It might be a fruitful experience ,though...
Why not just stick to our definitions , untill we can figure out another deeper definitions ?
maro
muslimah
mball1297 said:
but what about the design of our minds ? if our minds can create designs and patterns out of the chaos ,then sure they have their own design ,at the first place ,What do you think ?
If you lived in a muslim community ,you will hear people attributing every Beauty and design to God
,certain mechanisms may occur ,we agree on that...but what we disagree upon is wether or not those mechanisms are random ,or meant to beI see the same sort of thing in evolution: the processes involved take much longer and they're much more subtle, but they're still there and apparent for anyone who cares to look.
I don't see any more reason to assume that God purposely designed some feature of anatomy than I do to assume that Niagara Gorge was dug by a team of angels with shovels.
Rumours of evolution's death have been greatly exaggerated.
I will come later to discuss with you the alleged flaws in darwinism , i appreciate your scientific sense...
I understand it's unmeasurable...It's just a conclusion made by observation...
camanintx
Well-Known Member
If a snowflake can form due to the simple action of physical laws, why do you assume that a designer is required for life to evolve over millions of years?
Douglas Adams would have something to say about this.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
I don't see the connection. Just because our minds can create design doesn't mean that our minds themselves were designed.
If you lived in a muslim community ,you will hear people attributing every Beauty and design to God
That is one reason I'm glad I don't live in a Muslim country. Obviously, the whole debate is whether or not things are designed. That's what it's been since the beginning. You just seem to be under the impression that things couldn't possibly have come to be the way they are without being designed. That is not true. Things could easily exist as they do without being designed. They could also have been designed that way. I just don't think they were designed. It doesn't make as much sense as me.
The last two quotes in your post were not from me. I don't really mind so much, but you should make sure you give credit where it's due next time.
Astonishingly complex and 'orderly' manifestations can come from repeated series of small, understandable steps. A simple equation can yield infinite complexity.
The need to attribute anything complex and orderly to some anthropomorphic designer is an artifact of our own psychology.
The need to attribute anything complex and orderly to some anthropomorphic designer is an artifact of our own psychology.
Gunfingers
Happiness Incarnate
On the subject of evolution and the origin of life, i recommend you give talkorigins a readthrough.
As for the original question, i believe very little. There are a lot of good theories out there, my favorites include big bang/abiogenesis/evolution, but as none of it has any affect (effect? I can never remember which is which) on my day to day life it's fairly irrelevant to me.
As for the original question, i believe very little. There are a lot of good theories out there, my favorites include big bang/abiogenesis/evolution, but as none of it has any affect (effect? I can never remember which is which) on my day to day life it's fairly irrelevant to me.
Halcyon
Lord of the Badgers
You saw design there because there is design, but as a medical student you should have been taught that it is not an intelligent design but one that has been encoded within our genetic blueprint via eons of selective pressure.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
maro:
Is your question, how does an atheist account for the complexity of the universe, including life?
Is your question, how does an atheist account for the complexity of the universe, including life?
logician
Well-Known Member
It's like looking at a complete software system, for say, running a hospital, if taken as a whole, it seems almost incomprehensibly complex, but look at in smaller and smaller chunks, you see the pieces that come together to make the whole.
Trey of Diamonds
Well-Known Member
Interesting. For me the positive and negative energy is the universe however should these energies have intelligence would that intelligence be considered a separate entity? A bigger question is are the two energies separate or two parts of one whole? In other words are God and Satan the same person?
Nothing wrong with praying. I think mankind has connections to the energies within the universe and if rituals such as praying enable an individual to have access to those energies then it is a good thing.
Here I have to disagree. The definitions of life vary just among human beings and to try and chose one of them to assign as the definintion of life for a supreme being will lead to false conclusions. It is better to understand that God, a supreme being, an intellegent designer, positive energy or whatever, will have a definition of life that is beyond what we define life as. You don't have to understand what that definition is, just that it is beyond the definition we have.