Extremism, freedom of speech and national security

[Sultan Of Swing]

What is with Europeans wanting to replicate the McCarthy era in the US?

I like how "Europeans" get generalised as softie politically correct liberals on one day and right-wing McCarthyist bigots the next.

 

[Twilight Hue]

No.

Legislate the actions, not the ideologies.

That would be the common sense approach.

 

[Apex]

I like how "Europeans" get generalised as softie politically correct liberals on one day and right-wing McCarthyist bigots the next.

"Softie PC liberals" are perfectly capable of McCarthyesque thought policing. And I only brought it up as it has popped up in several places on RF recently.

 

[Yerda]

If they're known members of extremist organisations. An interview would help as well, if a person is bold enough to admit their extremist views then that's good reason to not let them in.

I'm not at the Home Office but I'm sure membership of al-Qaeda is not good for the old visa application. But yes, of course. If someone states their plans for their stay in the UK as jihad, followed by trip to Blackpool pier, we'd be advised to send them off on their merry way.

 

[Wu Wei]

I don't know why, but reading though this entire thread I had this thought pop in my head

Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it. - George Santayana

Freedom of speech is great. It doesn't matter how politically incorrect your opinion may be, you have the right to express it and we're not going to hunt you down and burn you at the stake.

I firmly believe this. It is fundamental.

That is how it is supposed be anyway

And yet, at the same time, I believe people who are teaching extremist ideologies should be thrown in jail or out of the country altogether. For the sake of the well-being and security of the people, extremist views (e.g. Islamist views) just shouldn't be tolerated, because they are views that seek to suppress all freedom and harm and destroy lives. If making a death threat is illegal, then teaching an extremist ideology is almost indirectly doing that, except the death threat is against everyone.

The problem is the definition of Extremism, which, like Terrorism, no one can agree on.

Extremism

Also one must take into account that if you go after all extremists you are going after more than those that come from Islam and to make a law outlawing what a government labels "Extremism" goes very much against your first statement and give them the right to hunt you down and burn you at the stake...ok throw you in jail or kill you. Then anyone with an Extremist view of anything becomes a target.

Something to really think about is Extermism comes in all shapes, sizes, ethnic backgrounds and religions

In terms of immigration, I believe there should be proper screening and checks to ensure people who have detrimental extremist views simply shouldn't be allowed into the country.

I have no argument against that other than what those "extremist views" might be. Don't forget that Darwinism was also once an extremist view and Atheism was as well.

Benjamin Franklin's quote comes to mind, "He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither."

Well, ol' Benjamin didn't have to deal with Islamist ideologies that were being taught in the country.

My opinion and it is just that...I think ol' Ben would likely still feel the same. He was labeled a rebel and likely thought of as an extremist himself by some people at the time.

To what extent is he right? Do you agree with banning teaching extremist ideologies? What about simply having extremist views? Freedom of speech is paramount... but is it so paramount to risk national security?

We have no right to ban teaching extremist ideologies because of the Constitution and not all extremists Ideologies are terrorist ones or associated in anyway with Islam. Yes there are many I wish would go away but under our (USA) current laws, unless you want to give up some fairly heavy duty rights across the board, you simply can't do it.

I am getting the feeling here that you are equating "extremist ideologies" terrorism and Islam and it is not that cut and dried. And don't forget, there are domestic terrorists as well as international terrorists and they do not all come from the middle east and many do not go around teaching extremist ideologies.

 

[Wu Wei]

Some other quotes to think about on this topic that are not from Ben Franklin

It is necessary to suppress any extremist actions, on all sides, regardless of their origin.
-- Vladimir Putin

A peace that depends on fear is nothing but a suppressed war.
-- Henry Van Dyke

If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.
-- George Washington

 

[Laika]

Some other quotes to think about on this topic that are not from Ben Franklin

Just reminded me of one.

"Ideas are far more powerful than guns. We don't let our enemies have guns. Why should we let them have ideas?" Joseph Stalin.

[edit: not 100% sure it's genuine, but would fit the man rather well. According to Wikiquote, "As quoted in Quotations for Public Speakers : A Historical, Literary, and Political Anthology (2001) by Robert G. Torricelli, p. 121"]

 

[Underhill]

Neo-Nazism does not deserve the benefit of protection of the law. Nor does Jewish, Christian & Islamic Fundamentalism.

That is a slippery slope. At what point does one go from extremist to mainstream? For example, all Christians believe (so far as I know) that we are all deserving of eternal punishment. Now this, in and of itself, doesn't mean they should kill non believers. But it could be (and has been) interpreted as such by wacko fundamentalist. There is a fine line between fundamentalist and your run of the mill believer. And the teachings of one can be taken to mean something much different by those inclined to such beliefs.

 

[icehorse]

Gotta let the extremists talk.

We have laws for incitement and conspiracy, imperfect, but in place. I'll second an earlier comment, 'who's to judge what's "extremist".' You're a smart group here on RF, but I wouldn't trust any of you with that judging job

On the other hand we should marginalize, ridicule, and otherwise jeer at neo-nazi type folk.

 

[goodhunter819]

Looking For A Solution?


I am in a conundrum in that I do not believe in political ideology at all and my neighbours who are immigrants wannabees fascist are always telling me that I am not getting a siege hail, on top of which I am not wanting to hear any siege hailing at all because as I said I don’t believe in politics and when I do vote I vote on a democratic level it is for British politics and not past German fascist political ideology , like the Catholics I put religion before politics , on top of which I believe in the power greater than man though I do believe in myself too, I practise an unconventional religion that host many tribes, who have been known to fight against political ideology for many years, I put my faith in myself and the power of the unseen and by power of the unseen I mean the great spirit that binds the universe together and works through all things so I don’t need to be hearing some fruitcake from another country telling me about a fascist hail I don’t need to hear, what’s even more confusing is some of these immigrants were targeted by the Nazi during WWII so them saying siege hail to me sounds absurd and a travesty of hypocrisy with an extra helping of ignorance, I studied German political history as an academic study I have even looked the Nuremberg trials tapes and a large amount of documented histories to some extent, so I have a considerable and comprehensive knowledge of that particular political German ideology that was once a functioning political government in Germany , I also studied the of the swastika predating politics by some 20,000 years which is my use to its meaning as a religious symbol and I studied Political Philosophy so it’ fair to say I have a good knowledge on the subject , I am looking for feedback ? apart from marrying a Jewish girl which is one option how would I get these nut jobs of me case, sensible suggestions only please?

C A Forbes

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

No. I prefer not to have my brand of extremism banned. Other brands, yes.

 

[goodhunter819]

Freedom of speech what about ignorance that leads to their own eventual demise. what kind of nutter thinks their practising national socialism in an area lived in by varied Muslims from the Asia, and so called lesser Asiatics as was described in the his papers and journals and eastern Europe and the African continent and non Muslims who are Slavic or Romanian Gypsies or polish and Jamaicans and St Kitts and Eastern European Orthodox which is effectively is a decent of the Russian orthodox Jews, what kind of nutter wakes up at three thirty on the morning shouting nation socialist hails, in an area that the National socialists would have targeted for ethnic cleansing and racial extermination because of its cultural diversity for Christ sake take of political history class or go to the library and read on book on the subject, if they national socialist ever had came to power in England all areas like this one I just described including ghettoes would be the epitome of national socialists and southern white supremacist hate for targeting , you know some of these people need to take a political history course or read a book on the issue to find out that areas like these are the reasons national socialists rose to power, to get rid of them, I tell you some of these people are dangerous and ignorant, Ahhm the problem is not me because I do not believe in any real politics much less fascist politics, I am not the problem at all, the problem here is ignorance and not knowing when your democratic freedom offers you a better choice, freakin hell talk about dumb intent to a self destructive outcome