Faith and belief are overrated

[Willamena]

Faith and probability are not the same thing. I've been told I have faith that when I press a light switch, the light will come on. No- I just expect it because that's how it's wired.

I think faith and expectation are also different things. I could argue that the expectation exists because faith is held --but it's probably off-topic.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Atheists believe there is no god, we trust our car brakes will work, yada, etc., etc.

I don't quite understand why when someone says "I don't believe in _____," the response is often, "But you DO have faith in other things."

Why is the issue of having faith and beliefs so important?

It's a shaky enough concept as it is, without other people completely disregarding it.

 

[Songbird]

I can definitely see the comparison, Vi, and political proselytization seems comparable too.

I often liken faith in "the word of" god

to faith in "the word/s of" politicians.



"God is good"
yet we keep calling on "his" name in vain.
Expecting 'his' help for a better life.
"Politicians are good"
yet we keep voting them in, in vain.
'Expecting' their help,
for a better life.

For truth, and justice, and equality of opportunity.

Yet massive preponderance of evidence points against the case of faith in either.
The bulk of evidence clearly says you can't trust either. (god or politician)
Faith in the goodness and just interventional power of both god and politician is irrational.

Some of you will say, yes, I doubt the words of politicians,
but still I vote for them based on what they say.
Their platform, their promises...
Yes, even though I know what they say cannot be trusted.
(as we know from experience)

Is this rational?

Voting for someone you don't believe in,
(ie, someone who is not being REAL/not a real being)
makes perhaps worse sense than imploring a god for help
who lets little children starve daily.
(ie, politicians do the same. but for real.)

Don't know what you think of this kind of comparison.
Usually when I bring it up
it just gets ignored,
like I never wrote it.

 

[Songbird]

Faith and beliefs are important because these are the qualities that shape our thinking and direct our actions. As we believe, so do we do.

I question that. Not the "As we believe, so do we do" part, but I suspect a person inclined to do good would do good things with or without religious beliefs. No doubt religions have influenced people to do incredibly wonderful and incredibly atrocious things, but it's hard to speculate what things would have been done with different belief systems.

Faith is not, as the new meme tries to perpeptuate, belief in things with no evidence. Religious faith is not and has never been about believing in scientifically untenable supernatural entities. Paul's famous "Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for" is not about belief in God (that was a given). It is much more akin to the belief "all shall be well, and all shall be well, all manner of things shall be well."

Take the first step in faith. You don't have to see the whole staircase, just take the first step. - Martin Luther King Jr.

I've been thinking about this. I guess I haven't made up my mind about the whole idea of faith.

 

[Songbird]

I think faith and expectation are also different things. I could argue that the expectation exists because faith is held --but it's probably off-topic.

Faith and probability are not the same thing.

There is a fundamental difference between faith and trust. Trust has to be earned by empirical evidence

Yes, I agree.

Why is faith (not expectation, probability, or trust) so important to so many?

There seems to be a vague feeling among the Christians I know that people of other faiths are better than atheists - they're at least on a spiritual path, if misguided. But man, you faithless atheists.

 

[Songbird]

Faith is not, as the new meme tries to perpeptuate, belief in things with no evidence. Religious faith is not and has never been about believing in scientifically untenable supernatural entities. Paul's famous "Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for" is not about belief in God (that was a given). It is much more akin to the belief "all shall be well, and all shall be well, all manner of things shall be well."

I'd love for you to say more about that.

 

[RubyEyes]

Atheists believe there is no god, we trust our car brakes will work, yada, etc., etc.

If you are positive that no higher being exists, what is your reason for doing so? Does that not take faith (more like anti-faith) in itself?

I don't quite understand why when someone says "I don't believe in _____," the response is often, "But you DO have faith in other things."

Well, you can determine yourself whether or not you have faith on other things. If you don't, point it out to whoever says it.

Why is the issue of having faith and beliefs so important?

To me, my faith is important. But I'm not everyone. I'd like each one to examine their own thoughts and conscience. If you have determined you believe no God exists, that is your path and I won't interfere unless you interfere with mine.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

The difference between the two is:

Faith in my brakes is an expectation based on something that you have prior experience with.

Faith in a god is an expectation in the existence of something that you have no prior exposure to.

It's a stupid argument that only stupid people make.

-Q

 

[lunamoth]

I'd love for you to say more about that.

And I would love to, but right now I am short on time. I would refer you to a thread on the topic from a while ago (80 pages long - I know, too much to wade through) where I discussed the idea that faith is (for some people) a worldview.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/comparative-religion/107448-what-faith.html

Cheers,
~ luna

 

[crocusj]

Because it justifies the "you HAVE to have faith in something" group, thereby justifying their willingness to walk off imaginary bridges.

Can you walk off an imaginary bridge?

 

[Willamena]

And I would love to, but right now I am short on time. I would refer you to a thread on the topic from a while ago (80 pages long - I know, too much to wade through) where I discussed the idea that faith is (for some people) a worldview.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/comparative-religion/107448-what-faith.html

Cheers,
~ luna

From the last page:
Faith "is the state of being grasped by the power of being which transcends everything that is and in which everything that is participates."

Paul Tillich

 

[Songbird]

And I would love to, but right now I am short on time. I would refer you to a thread on the topic from a while ago (80 pages long - I know, too much to wade through) where I discussed the idea that faith is (for some people) a worldview.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/comparative-religion/107448-what-faith.html

Cheers,
~ luna

Thanks! I didn't see that thread when I searched for faith discussions. The search feature here is lacking.

Awwrr, considering asking to have this whole thread deleted....feeling like my OP is pointless and stated in a hostile way. Of course, all my topics are pointless.

 

[Willamena]

Nah, it's good.

 

[Sunstone]

Of course, all my topics are pointless.

Welcome to RF.

 

[Songbird]

welcome to rf.

WURR MUH WELCOME BASKET?

....filler so the filter doesn't un-caps my question...

 

[Sunstone]

WURR MUH WELCOME BASKET?

....filler so the filter doesn't un-caps my question...

We used to give those out to people with a million frubals, but then someone got near to a million frubals, so we had to hastily withdraw the offer. Understandable, no?

 

[Sunstone]

Atheists believe there is no god, we trust our car brakes will work, yada, etc., etc.

I don't quite understand why when someone says "I don't believe in _____," the response is often, "But you DO have faith in other things."

Why is the issue of having faith and beliefs so important?

I wouldn't want you to delete your thread. The OP might not be all you wanted it to be, but you seem to be raising a couple intelligent questions.

 

[Songbird]

We used to give those out to people with a million frubals, but then someone got near to a million frubals, so we had to hastily withdraw the offer. Understandable, no?

:149: Basket.

 

[Willamena]

If you manage to get through Laurie's 80 page thread with your (excuse the phrase) faith intact, you deserve a basket.

 

[Sunstone]

:149: Basket.

Sure, just as soon as I can find a nice basket for you for under a dollar. Wish me luck at the flea market!