Faith in Religious Objects

[Ishkbal]

Hello,

I have a friend in Bermuda who is having diffiulty with a poltergeist in his girlfriend's house. He is a Buddhist and she doesn't have a religion. He tried placing twin Foo Dogs in her room to ward off the spirit but it did not have any effect. In fact, the poltergeist activity got worse. Now, he didn't understand why it did not work and I tried explaining it to him. His girlfriend does not have any faith in the religious symbols as she is not a Buddhist, therefore, the Foo Dog statues do not have any effect on protecting her from malevolent spirits.

I feel that if my friend were in her situation and he had put up the Foo Dogs it would have worked for him because he has faith that it will work. Do you get my drift? Anyway, I'm just wondering what others think about that. Will religious symbols work only if there is the belief that they will work?

Cheers,

Ishkbal

 

[Fluffy]

I feel that if my friend were in her situation and he had put up the Foo Dogs it would have worked for him because he has faith that it will work. Do you get my drift? Anyway, I'm just wondering what others think about that. Will religious symbols work only if there is the belief that they will work?

Religious symbols, like any symbol really, are merely there to represent something else. They often incorporate the most important beliefs of a religion. This is their purpose and, as far as I know, they manage this without the need of faith.

Now as far as ritual is concerned, religious symbols can be used as a physical manifestation of the beliefs they represent so that they can interact with other components in the ritual. It is important in a ritual to keep your mind on what you wish to accomplish and faith is a good way of doing this but it is in no means necessary. Additionally, faith can have an important effect when the ritual involves yourself and your mind because it can cause the ritual to act like a placebo in addition to any effects the ritual has.

Your friend had faith in the ritual and he was the one conducting it. To say that his girlfriend's lack of faith disrupted it would be similar to me being unable to conduct magick in the same room as an unbeliever. There must be something other than a lack of faith which is preventing it from working.

 

[Tawn]

His girlfriend does not have any faith in the religious symbols as she is not a Buddhist, therefore, the Foo Dog statues do not have any effect on protecting her from malevolent spirits.

If I may offer a Secular opinion...
The reason the objects didnt work - is as you say, because the symbols have no meaning to her. It is also worth remembering that the spirits themselves are an imagined creation (most likely! ). A result of suggestibility.. and yes such things can be shared.
Ever notice how you find yourself looking over your shoulder when you have heard a ghost story?

The best way of approaching the issue, if she is non-religious, is to make her realise the ghosts are a figment of her own suggestion. Get her to question if the ghost really exists.. only skepticism will help her get over it. Of course if she is religious then perhaps use a similar object from her faith. If Christian - perform an exorcism. Etc... use her beliefs to shake off her beliefs

Of course you probably disagree with my opinion..

 

[Ishkbal]

In reply,

Fluffy: So, you are saying that the power of the symbol is there even if the fiath is not? That's very interesting. Thank you. And I agree with you, there is more going than just the fact that she doesn't believe in the power Foo Dogs have. There is also the problem that her parents are extremely bigoted towards Blacks and Jews which is how we think the whole problem with the poltergeist started.

Tawn: As for the poltergeist being imaginary, it is always possible. However, in this case there has been several physical effects of the presence of the ghost (bed shaking for no reason, cold spots) and these have been noticed by more than one individual. However, you bring up a good point. Although the power behind objects could be only suggestive, there is still the belief that there is. It's like believing in a God or different gods, while one might not be true it is still nice to have them.

Cheers,

Ishkbal

 

[michel]

Has the poltergeist made itself apparent in the girfriend's house before she went to live there ? - has she any children ? The reason I ask is from what you have said, it sounds more like a 'haunting' than a 'poltergeist'

 

[Fluffy]

In reply,

Fluffy: So, you are saying that the power of the symbol is there even if the fiath is not? That's very interesting. Thank you. And I agree with you, there is more going than just the fact that she doesn't believe in the power Foo Dogs have. There is also the problem that her parents are extremely bigoted towards Blacks and Jews which is how we think the whole problem with the poltergeist started.

mmm not quite. I'm more suggesting that there is no power in the symbols till we put it there. I just don't think the source of that power comes from our faith either but from clarity of what the person is trying to do and willpower. Faith can achieve those things but often it confuses things to no end as well.

 

[Ishkbal]

Ah, I see now, thanks Fluffy.

Michel: well, it would seem that it could be a haunting, I usually associate the one with the other. She doesn't have any children, as she is only 17, and the problem only started recently and they have lived there for years. At first it was nothing big, just the feel of the presence and the sense that she was being watched. So, she had some others come in to see if they felt the same, and they experienced the same stuff. Then it started to get worse. There started to be rampings on the walls and cold spots; and the negative precense spread from her room to her sister's room to the basement. Curiously enough, the parent's bedroom is sort of a haven. Poeple go in there and they feel protected.

Cheers,

Ishkbal

 

[Riven]

Well, your beliefs manifest your reality, so, yes, belief that the object will work is necessary. But, on the flip side of the "belief-manifesting-reality" coin, she should be able to hang up a dirty sock in her room, believe it will solve the problem, and it should work.

 

[Ishkbal]

Lol. Man, have I ever come across alot of people who believe some far out things. Now, there is a difference between having the power to change something and believing something will happen foolishly.

Cheers,

Keenan

 

[Fluffy]

Lol. Man, have I ever come across alot of people who believe some far out things. Now, there is a difference between having the power to change something and believing something will happen foolishly.

Cheers,

Keenan

Lol actually I got to with Riven on this one Keenan. The elements of a ritual are just their to help you focus your power. Most people find the easiest way to do this to use an item which is significant to them and the ritual but if you can find relevance in a dirty sock then all the more power to you.

 

[michel]

Ah, I see now, thanks Fluffy.

Michel: well, it would seem that it could be a haunting, I usually associate the one with the other. She doesn't have any children, as she is only 17, and the problem only started recently and they have lived there for years. At first it was nothing big, just the feel of the presence and the sense that she was being watched. So, she had some others come in to see if they felt the same, and they experienced the same stuff. Then it started to get worse. There started to be rampings on the walls and cold spots; and the negative precense spread from her room to her sister's room to the basement. Curiously enough, the parent's bedroom is sort of a haven. Poeple go in there and they feel protected.

Cheers,

Ishkbal

A poltergeist would usually manifest itself more by way of objects being thrown across the room - and are (traditionally) often 'energised' by pubescent girls - the cold spots though make this sound so much more like a haunting, though; there again, the fact that the parent's room feels like a 'haven' points back to 'poltergeist' - how old is the sister ? -if she is younger, it may be she who has been the unwitting catalyst.

I have searched on the web for ways of ridding yours, or someone else's Poltergeist - but I cannot find any - what I would call 'authoritative' references.

I would contact a local priest, and ask for his help.

 

[Fluffy]

A poltergeist would usually manifest itself more by way of objects being thrown across the room - and are (traditionally) often 'energised' by pubescent girls - the cold spots though make this sound so much more like a haunting, though; there again, the fact that the parent's room feels like a 'haven' points back to 'poltergeist' - how old is the sister ? -if she is younger, it may be she who has been the unwitting catalyst.

I have searched on the web for ways of ridding yours, or someone else's Poltergeist - but I cannot find any - what I would call 'authoritative' references.

I would contact a local priest, and ask for his help.

Alternatively you could document the evidence and either prove conclusively of the existence of such a phenonema or you could market for a lot of money. In my experience, people are rather more successful with the latter, unfortunately.

 

[kreeden]

This sounds like the old question " Would a Cross work to keep a Jewish vampire away ? " :;

And I believe that there is more in that question then first meets the eye . First off , yes there is power in symbols . However that power can be very weak if one doesn't believe in it . I view such as an act of will . For excample , if the girl is thinking that the Foos are silly , then her will is activily working agaisnt the will of her bf , if she means to or not . And then there is the will of the Spirit ...

Which makes me wonder about this spirit . The girl doesn't have a religion ? Yet the spirit is attracted to her ? It usually doesn't work that way as in this case opposites didn't attract . I believe that it is more common for the spiritual to be attracted to the spiritual . Thereforth I think that there may be more to this then what is seen on the surface ?

As for religious objects having power of their own ? Or how much power they have on their own and what effects that power has when left undirected ? Well , just about very object we know has had some prominent status in some religion or other at some time . We walk on Mother Earth , under the Sky , carry medal and stones from the Earth , make paintings and the like . They all have power of their own , but somewhere along the line , something else comes into play . Some call it Faith , some call it Will ? Perhaps it is just Power ?

 

[Tawn]

Tawn: As for the poltergeist being imaginary, it is always possible. However, in this case there has been several physical effects of the presence of the ghost (bed shaking for no reason, cold spots) and these have been noticed by more than one individual.

At first it was nothing big, just the feel of the presence and the sense that she was being watched. So, she had some others come in to see if they felt the same, and they experienced the same stuff. Then it started to get worse. There started to be rampings on the walls and cold spots; and the negative precense spread from her room to her sister's room to the basement.

The fact that things get worse over time suggests a self created belief reinforcing itself..
Tell me, the others who experienced these things - did they know anything about the haunting prior to visiting?
Hehe.. I love ghost stories.. I believe theyre figments of our imaginations - but it would be nice to think theyre real...

 

[Riven]

Now, there is a difference between having the power to change something and believing something will happen foolishly.

If you truly believe, you have the power to change everything. :jam:

 

[Original Freak]

Find a 'cure' for the ghosts...even if you make it up. Convince her it will work, you researched it (if you can find something at the library to back up what your saying all the better to 'prove' to her. Then take the appropriate actions. If she believes in the ghosts then she should believe in the ability to stop them.

 

[Ishkbal]

"I have searched on the web for ways of ridding yours, or someone else's Poltergeist - but I cannot find any - what I would call 'authoritative' references. I would contact a local priest, and ask for his help"

Well, although I don't agree with the Christian following (and therefore thier aproach to the paranormal), I think I shall keep an open mind and try to find a reliable source somewhere here in Ottawa.

Seeing the way things are going, I will start a new topic in the New Age section about how to banish hauntings and poltergeists. All of you are welcome to post your ideas there.

Cheers,

Keenan

 

[Ishkbal]

"The fact that things get worse over time suggests a self created belief reinforcing itself..
Tell me, the others who experienced these things - did they know anything about the haunting prior to visiting? Hehe.. I love ghost stories.. I believe theyre figments of our imaginations - but it would be nice to think theyre real..."

I can see where your getting at, Tawn. It wouldn't have happened if they had not known about it or wanted it to happen? If that is so than that is similar to saying that the people who are dying in Iraq right now are dying because they want to or because if they had not known war before they would not start to die? Now, this is taking it very literally. Of course, in Iraq, other people are causing the harm. Someone is the victimizer. Here's an anology, for what it is worth. US planes are capable of dropping bombs without even the people on the ground hearing or seeing it coming. To the people on the ground who have never seen bombs before, this was an act of some angry god. However, if they learn about airplanes and bombs and shells, etc. they start to doubt that a god had anything to do with it in the first place. Is that, more or less, what you are saying?

Now, here's what I think: Although there can be so much scepticism and doubt aroused around the power of objects, if we want or fear something is true, than it is true. If we want an object to have power, than it does. Or if we fear that some god has the power to cause spontaneous explosions, and thereby we must appease this god, than that god actually can. Never doubt the power of human belief. It is what makes and destroys gods. Could not a god have been a normal human being who had sone something that others considered godlike and therefore that person was elevated to a god after their death? Some of you might think of Jesus, I think of Cernunnus and Aschlepius.

Now, although belief can cause some people to make some pretty stupid assumptions (the sun revolving around the earth, for example) it is still wonderful to have those beliefs if they make you happy. As long as you are happy and everyone is fine with that, there is no better belief to have.

Cheers,

Keenan

 

[Tawn]

Is that, more or less, what you are saying?

No not really..

Now, here's what I think: Although there can be so much scepticism and doubt aroused around the power of objects, if we want or fear something is true, than it is true. If we want an object to have power, than it does. Or if we fear that some god has the power to cause spontaneous explosions, and thereby we must appease this god, than that god actually can. Never doubt the power of human belief. It is what makes and destroys gods. Could not a god have been a normal human being who had sone something that others considered godlike and therefore that person was elevated to a god after their death? Some of you might think of Jesus, I think of Cernunnus and Aschlepius.

I agree mostly but with a subtle difference. Belief is powerful, but belief does not create exterior forces or beings, it just makes them real in your mind.


Still you should be looking for something which appeals to her faith and belief system.

 

[michel]

I know of a four/five year old child who saw a ghost once; the person with him was completely convinced of it. Now

a) he was too young to understand even the word 'ghost'
b) he discribed the ghost to the person who witnessed the incident.

Are you guys going to file this under 'overactive imagination' ?